The Instigator
octo
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Finalfan
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Does the Christian God Exists

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/17/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 437 times Debate No: 44133
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
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octo

Pro

I wish to challenge any and all agnostics and atheists to an all out speed debate.
I Octo have nine simple words that will crush all of atheism and hopefully point thousands to Christ. Frist though(before I reveal the nine words) I wish to debate anyone who thinks they can make me doubt my faith and win the vote.

Here's my first argument we all as humens have a sense of morality. Even if someone has been told all there life that murdering a person is right it has been proven thousands of times that that person will have a small inkling that murder is wrong. So where did that sense of morality come from not from humans. If it did humans would not do anything bad or evil. So where did morality come from. Not from evolution that biology not morality. Defiantly not experience for how would we know what was good or bad to begun with. Well I think the answer is that something bigger than us had to have put that morality something that was totally good.
Finalfan

Con

I want to start off by thanking my opponent for starting this debate. I am looking forward to hearing the 9 words to prove the existence of God! Also it seems that this debate will lean heavily towards where morals come from which happens to be something I have researched! So here Goes...

Our morality is a part of our Darwinian instinct. It has evolved through the increase of human population. There was a time when morality was necessary for your well being. You were more than likely to see the same people again and again. It was in your best interest to be moral because the people you were nice to would more than likely return the kindness. The same system exists today, it has just been perverted by clinging to obsolete objective morality (that which you would find in the bible) It is like not letting go of your dead relative.. it stinks up the place and eventually contaminates the "drinking water"!
The same type of evolution can be said about Sex. At one point procreation was of supreme importance.. now it is detriment to the health and well being of our society.. yet we still engage in casual sex.. It has been perverted through the increase of population and exists in the pornographic state for that reason! (I owe Richard Dawkins for my theory)

Morality can be manipulated to mean just about anything. That is why you can find some pretty horrifying ideas of justice and morality in the Hebrew texts. This becomes a problem due to the cherry picking of morality by whomever is analyzing the bible! So you end up with a time where people do not stone their neighbor for working on the Sabbath but think they can use the bible to oppress homosexuals!

I have recently discovered that the word we are actually looking for is ethics. Ethics is why I know (regardless of the bible) that "kicking a pregnant woman in the stomach is worse than kicking a woman who is not with child in the stomach!" -Sam Harris

In this debate I plan to show you that the objective morality that comes from the bible are inferior to basic ethical principles like "Do unto others what you want done to you" . Looking forward to a very interesting debate!
Debate Round No. 1
octo

Pro

According to Wkipedia MORALITY is the differentiation of intentions decisions and actions between those that are "good" and those that are "evil" or "bad" and the Golden Rule states "One should treat others as one would wish others to treat oneself. "
Now I believe everyone dose not wish to be murdered stolen from or tortured. Even the smallest animals have the notion that they do not want to be hurt or killed. zebras monkeys dogs and shrimp know when they are alive and strive their best to stay alive. This concludes that animals and even shrimp must know they are alive and do not wish to be dead or else they would not wish to even try to live. So I believe that there was no time in earths history that its inhabitants ever wished to be murdered or harmed in any way. So here's a question why would we as a species ever be hesitant in killing someone and why would murder ever be a crime? Think about it we know we don't our self's want to be killed them why would we care if someone was murdered we would say "well at least it wasn't me" but today most people after hearing that news would feel sad for that person even if he was a nasty person. So where did that morality come from why would we treat others the way that we would want to be treated? Let say we did evolved from lions now lions sometimes kill there own and hunt for food to survive. What logically situation can you come up with to explain how some lions who whould kill their own kind and hunt animals just to. survive change suddenly to a creature with some what good morals. Even if the lion evolved to such an superior stats that it no longer needs to eat meat but can now eat vegetables what is telling the lion that killing is wrong. The lion knew all its live by instinct how to hunt how to survive and how to lead a pride. So how did he get the idea he did not just think it everything he knew to that point had told him not to think that so what made him have morals ? Here is the answer someone must have told put that idea into the envoled lion head someone who knew right between wrong to the full extent. Someone like God
Finalfan

Con

We branched off along with African apes (gorilla, chimpanzee) with a common ancestor (arboreal mammal) more than 5 million years ago! I did not mean to imply that you really think people evolved from lions. I however will try to explain or re explain my theory.. Keep in mind I do not plan on this being the debate winner.... Our morals have become perverted due to the increase of population. I used the example of sex. You can clearly see the perversion of sexual morality when sex at one point was necessary for survival has now become a bane to our society. (Over population, pornography, STDs) Sounds like a reasonable explanation to me but I am not using any sources other than I got the idea from Richard Dawkin's!

This next statement is tantamount to my argument... MORALITY IS SECULAR!
We did not get our morals from the bible. In fact you can find that the bibles ethical standards are low.. I would even go as far as to say that if the human population did not have morality.. they would have eaten each other alive and we would not exist. The bible was not some magical catalyst for civility.. in fact it seemed to mostly be used to manipulate or oppress! Sam Harris made a great case for secular morality with his pregnant stomach kicking example.

You make an interesting case with a lion becoming a vegetarian but without data to show evidence of this unlikely evolution of the lion, we are left with only conjecture. It does not lend itself to inventing a God to explain the mystery behind anything! It is just what the human mind has always been good for (Zeus, Vishnu, Thor, etc)

Using morality as evidence for God does not pan out due to the callous nature of existence! Not to mention the malevolent acts of God in the old testament! (Mass genocide or Filicide : the act of killing ones own child, torture...etc)! This does not sound like a benevolent God to me. But it does illustrate the ignorance that dominated during that time! (Ignorance can be mistaken for immorality)

Still waiting for those 9 words to prove God's existence.. cheers
Debate Round No. 2
octo

Pro

octo forfeited this round.
Finalfan

Con

Bummer. Not really excited about this win!
Debate Round No. 3
octo

Pro

octo forfeited this round.
Finalfan

Con

Well this was a flop.. Its too bad, I thought it started out pretty good! Do you think I had him questioning his beliefs. He did challenge me to make him an unbeliever! Thought I might have gotten to him! But... I doubt it! If I was going to create a panic room out of anything it would be Christian stubbornness! Nothing can penetrate it!
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Finalfan 2 years ago
Finalfan
Ummm it says octo's account is no longer active. What did I do? Was I that rude?
Posted by Finalfan 2 years ago
Finalfan
As long as they do not start a war or influence politics I am fine with Christians existing.. but apparently we are still waiting for their crusades to be over!
Posted by Haydon 2 years ago
Haydon
Can't argue with believers...
They are inherently immune to reason and facts,
the only way to win would be to perhaps write a book, claim that it is thousands of years old in which people document proof that god doesn't exist, which is bloody impossible to prove a negative.
RAWR CHRISTIANS RAPTOR JESUS IS COMING FOR YOU!!!
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