The Instigator
Blazzered
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
mostlogical
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Does the Christian God exist?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/6/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 782 times Debate No: 71266
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (15)
Votes (0)

 

Blazzered

Con

To start of, please know I am not an atheist. I am an agnostic theist. I do not make the claim that no God exists, I actually think there very well may be a God that exists. However, not the Christian God. I have several points to make so I will try to keep this as organized as possible.

1. Christians lack of evidence plus disproval of the bible
When asked what evidence Christians have to prove Gods existence, they turn to the bible. A book full of stories, some good and some bad, but stories that haven't been proven but have actually been disproven.

We have disproven many parts of Genesis.
Creation of the earth and universe
Adam and Eve
Noah's Ark
Flooding of the Earth

Now for the record, I know Christian all talk he bible differently. Some take certain parts literally, others take it metaphorically. So if my opponent takes genesis metaphorically, this part is not for you.

Creation of the Earth
We know how planets are made. We know how stars are made.
The bible says:
"in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light; and there was light. And God saw the light and that it was good: and God divided the light from darkness."

The bible CLEARLY states that earth was created BEFORE the sun. The problem is, you don't have planets without a history of stars.

Adam and Eve
We have disproven this story through genetics, and evolution. Simple as that.

No where does God say that his creatures would evolve over time.

(Please do not get the theory of evolution, mixed with the fact of evolution.
Theory of evolution deals with the mechanisms such as natural selection.
The fact of evolution is that actual evolving. We have fossil evidence and evolution is observed everyday by evolutionary scientists. Evolution is a fact.)

We has have dated dinosaur bones being around millions of years before humans. We also have Pangea to back this up. Continental drift, Rock layers, etc. This all did not happen in a course of a few thousand years.

Noah's Ark
This is just common sense. An ark built by an unskilled man and his family, could not have held 2 of each animal of each species on an ark, plus feces, and plus food. The Ark would not have held and a man and his family would not have been able to control all of the animals.

Flooding of the Earth
Once again, common sense. We have the water cycle, and even if there was no water cycle and the earth was flooded, the water levels would only rise 25-50 ft. The entire earth would not have been flooded.

Now onto a different argument, there is no evidence. There is nothing that we can test or observe to prove his existence, and observation is what is needed in order to prove something exists.

2. Evil and hypocrisy in the bible
The bible is flawed.
Again, we have disproven parts. The bible is also full of hypocrisy and at time, God seems more evil than loving.

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

1 Timothy 2:12 " "I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she is to keep quiet."

2 Kings 22:23-25 - "Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!" When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number. And he went from there to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria."

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 - "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery."

The list goes on. I would like my opponent and those who look into this debate to take time to understand and/or realize that the bible is filled with rape, genocide, sexism, slavery, etc.

Christians will argue that the Old Testament is now longer followed. The New Testament is what matters now. But there is evil in that book as well!

Mathew 5:17 - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Mathew 2:22-2:23 "So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Mathew 15:4-7 Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother let him die the death." (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20:9, Dt 21:18-21)

The bible is immoral and full of much hate and hypocrisy. But that stuff gets overlooked. Christians will take all the evil in the bible and anything that's disproven and say that those are metaphors. Anything that hasn't been disproven, and is good, they say is literal.

3. Morality
Christians will argue, if the bible isn't true then there is no objective morality. Nothing matters there is no good and evil, torturing baby's is okay.
No, that's not how it works.
I want everyone to understand this. There is no objective morality. We have subjective morality.
When I say something is wrong, I say it because I personally think its wrong. (Subjective)
When a Christian says something is wrong, they say it because God says its wrong. (Objective)

Objective morality: the idea that a certain system of ethics or set of moral judgments is not just true according to a person's subjective opinion, but factually true.

Nothing, is factually wrong. We all have different opinions.

Homosexuality
Abortion
War in Iraq/Afghanistan

These are all controversial topics. They are controversial because we all have different moral opinions.
If there was objective morality, we would all agree on what is right and wrong. We would all agree on what is good and what is evil. But there is no good and evil. There is no factual right or wrong. It is all a matter of opinion.

4. Where did God come from?
God has always been around. He exists outside of time. He's always been around.

Much is wrong with that statement. If someone exists, outside of existence, then they don't exist at all.
If a designer created everything, something or someone must've created the designer, otherwise there is no explanation at all.

5. Some early refutations
Next I want to quickly refute 4 common Christian arguments.

1. Pascals Wager. You should believe in God because if you don't, to take the risk of going to Hell.
There are 3 flaws.
1. What if you believe in the wrong God?
2. Wouldn't God know who believes out of faith and who believes out of fear of Hell and are "believing" just to keep away, not because they love God?
3. Argument appeals to emotion

2. God of the Gaps. I don't know, therefor God.
This gets a debate nowhere. It also answers nothing. Just because we don't know something, doesn't mean God did it.

3. Russell's teapot. I don't have to prove God, you have to disprove him.
The one who makes the claim, as a Christian claims that God exists, has to provide the evidence to prove his/her claim. Otherwise there is no discussion.

4. Ontological argument. God is perfect and maximal, therefor he must exist.
Utopia is perfect, but doesn't exist.
You could also use this argument for a maximal and perfect car, or anything.
This argument does not prove anything.

Lastly, I want to refute one last thing Christians will say to try to prove God.

The universe and earth seems perfect for us to live in, that shows intelligent design and must be God.
If this seems like such a perfect place, please explain
Tornados
Earthquakes
Hurricanes
Tsunamis
World hunger
Over 90% of the earths water is dirty and undrinkable
Black holes
The sun will eventually die and go super nova and kill everyone
Mental illness
Mental disabilities
Earth is vulnerable to meteors and asteroids
Our food and air go down the same tube which is a choking hazard
Earth is mostly water, but we can't breath in it or live in it

Is this all your idea of intelligent design?

I know I have made a lot of points, 5 total. I look forward to what my opponent will have to say and bring to the debate. But with all the facts and evidence, I think it is safe to say that the Christian God does not exist.
mostlogical

Pro

My argument for the existence of a Christian God:

Fictional characters like "Batman" exist, if he didn't then no-one could be influenced by him.
People pray to God and read about him, and can be influenced by Him. Therefore He exists.

I understand your definition of existence may differ from mine.

All of your arguments like the lack of evidence (apart from a Bible) seem to aim to prove that God is a made up character and therefore does not exist. However if someone made him up, it doesn't mean he isn't real or doesn't exist. If a little boy says 'sunlight can prevent cancer' and then says 'it doesn't really, I made that up', it doesn't mean sunlight prevents cancer. It does and it doesn't.

So I've not read any reason as to why the Christian God doesn't exist yet, but there was a lot to read so I may have missed something.
Debate Round No. 1
Blazzered

Con

I get what you're saying with how he exists. The idea of God exists. His story exists.
However he himself has not been proven to truly exist. His story has not been proven true and has been getting disproven as time goes on.
You could say this for anything. It's a fun little mind bender you could say to your friends.
Unicorns exist, but they're not real.
Leprechauns exist, but they're not real.
Santa Clause exists, but he's not real.

You also say that just because someone made him up, doesn't mean he's not real.
Again you can do that with the mythical creatures and such.
People made up unicorns and leprechauns, but doesn't mean they're not real.

I gave 5 main points as to why I believe the Christian God does not exist, or in other cases, is not real. Those points still stand.
mostlogical

Pro

1. Christians lack of evidence plus disproval of the bible

The Bible says pi equals three, but it doesn't mean pi does. A lack of evidence doesn't prove anything either.

2. Evil and hypocrisy in the bible

Every Christian has their own view, and interpret the Bible differently. Many stories contradict themselves but it doesn't mean they are made up and therefore untrue

3. Morality

People have different opinions on what is right or wrong, but something is either right or is wrong. A high goal is both selfish and selfless. There are only two such goals. Homosexuality is wrong in my opinion because two men can't both achieve high goals. Etc etc etc. However morals do not prove anything, so there is no argument to make.

4. Where did God come from?

You are saying here that you can just read some text and know exactly what it means, and can basically understand God with ease by applying one type of logic. I'm sorry but that is utter rubbish.

5. Some early refutations

I still haven't come across any of this evidence you go on about. Btw Christians don't believe Earth is perfect or their body is, but there is a beautiful symmetry to life which was created with a purpose.
Debate Round No. 2
Blazzered

Con

1. Christians make the claim that God is real, but have no evidence to back up there claim.
We have more evidence to disprove the Christian God, than evidence to prove that he is real. I am not saying there is no God, I am saying that by evidence I think we can conclude that the Christian God is not real.

2. The fact that no one can understand the bible perfectly supports the idea that he's not real in the first place. Why would God have a book that teaches his followings and his wills that is so complicated to where his own creations cannot follow it perfectly? He wants us to follow him but he makes it difficult just by having a book that no one can understand perfectly, and then sends is to Hell for not following him and/or for questioning and not having faith in him.

3. If we both agree that there is no objective morality, then we can drop that. Nothing is factually right or wrong, nothing is factually good or evil. Therefore there is no objective morality.

4. Your response to where God came from was irrelevant. I was simply asking where did God come from. Who created God? No where did I mention anything about reading a text or did I even mention a bible and understanding it in this point. I just asked where God came from. If nothing created the designer then there is no designer, if the designer exists outside of time, then that just says God only exists in our imaginations where there is no time, rules, laws, or logic that God would have to follow.

5. This point was to avoid often arguments that are used by many Christians in an attempt to prove that God is real. If you feel that any of those arguments were actually good arguments, feel free to defend them. However they are faulty and do not prove anything.

My points however still remain standing.
mostlogical

Pro

1. Christians make the claim that God is real and exists because they love Him, and they do this through understanding Him, and vice versa - they can understand Him by loving him. Not even the most dedicated Christian can fully understand God in their short life on Earth, you'd need an eternity to do that, which they believe they will have when they die. Many scientists are Christians and have not concluded that God is not real. But faith comes before evidence.

2. No-one can fully understand the Bible, or God, they can only become closer. Why would God create a book no-one can understand? If you look at the Bible there are many contradictions, and instructions, it is through these you can gain a better understanding of God. If you pick up a best selling self help book, the author will never contradict himself because readers won't feel they have learnt a thing. The advice might sound right but people must still interpret that advice correctly and will struggle. It's fine saying things like 'be yourself on a date' but does that mean pick your nose, fart, etc? The Bible is a masterpiece. God does not make it difficult to follow him, you only need follow a fulfilling path. Ask any true Christian if God is loving and merciful and they will say yes, they don't believe He is a cruel God. They have read the whole Bible and in far more detail most probably.

3. Everything is factually right or wrong. You have no choice but to achieve a form of confidence, every action you make is for a reason or leads to one. You must either be selfish, or both selfish and selfless. If you do something for a selfish reason then it is wrong. Having a baby you don't want is wrong.

4. God is beyond our full understanding, there is no reason to think something must have created him, because if you go along that line of logic then something must have created the person who created the person who created him etc. It doesn't make sense to say something must always come from something, at some point something must have come from nothing i.e. God.
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I have proven in my mind that it is POSSIBLE God exists even if the Bible is made up/ fictional for purposes of understanding God

But I will happily accept you have won this argument if you can prove it is POSSIBLE to truly love someone (or something) that doesn't exist other than God.

God is love. Hope you have enjoyed the debate, and kindest regards
Debate Round No. 3
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by really12 1 year ago
really12
Ok, my statement on the definition of hell was erroneous.

I will not post any further rebuttal. I fully respect your religious views and understand your logistics on keeping an open mind.
Posted by Blazzered 1 year ago
Blazzered
Hell: any place or state of torment or misery.
http://dictionary.reference.com...

Rotting in the ground wouldn't be Hell because you would feel nothing, this would mean you'd have no soul, there is nothing after death. You don't think, you don't feel, you don't anything. It's just the end.

I keep an open mind because I go by facts and evidence.
When someone who is religious tells me to go by faith or to just believe because their book is evidence, I cannot follow.
If I am given scientific evidence then I will believe.
My reason for believing there may be a God is because of the whole idea of an afterlife and the start of everything.
However I will not argue saying that he exists outside of time and space, or that he even exists, because I don't try to prove something just by giving an argument instead of real evidence.
For all we know, maybe there is no god. Maybe instead there is a Goddess, or maybe there are multiple gods and/or goddesses.

I don't claim that I am correct, I don't claim I'm not correct, I make no claims.
I just think it's more logical and reasonable to be an agnostic theist, or an agnostic atheist, because in this case you keep an open mind.

If you believe in a religion, then you may be one of those who keeps a closed mind. Saying no matter what evidence is given, your religion is true (please note I am not meaning you specifically). Despite logic, reason, evidence, and facts.
I think everyone should keep an open mind.

In the end, we all have to admit that we don't know. Which is why I think we should all keep an open mind.
Everyone either goes by facts and evidence, or by faith.
Posted by really12 1 year ago
really12
Maybe what you described as alternately rotting in the ground instead of going to heaven or afterlife is hell?

I will not state any adverse insinuations on your religious views as you have not stated any on mine, it is good that you are open minded.
Posted by Blazzered 1 year ago
Blazzered
I make no claims on the anonymous God because he may not exist.

I'll say this much. When we die, I believe we either all go a place like heaven, or we all rot in the ground. I believe in no Hell.
Either we all have a good happy afterlife or the neutral where we're rotting in the ground and feel nothing.

I make no claims on my views being correct or incorrect. It's simply a thought I keep with myself and I stay open minded instead of closing my mind and sticking to a single belief and not giving it any doubt.
Posted by really12 1 year ago
really12
Before I begin, I will state that I respect and know where your religious doctrines stand.

If you do not believe in the benign Christian God, yet you are an agnostic, then what do you believe the anonymous God is like, benevolent or malevolent?
Posted by Blazzered 1 year ago
Blazzered
Okay to start, the Christian God doesn't need to exist in order for all other gods to exist. There's Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc.
Jesus is a prophet in Islam, not the son of God.
Buddhism is separate from Christianity. There are no connections.

Evolution isn't connected to the Big Bang, they are two separate topics.
Evolution is the change and a parathion an organism has to fit into its environment.
This is a fact.
The theory of evolution deals with the mechanisms such as natural selection.
We have fossil evidence and we observe it everyday to prove evolution.

The Big Bang is a scientific theory.
The evidence we have of this is that we have found that the stars are moving apart.
This would show that there may have been a Big Bang.
What made the Big Bang?
I can give you two answers.
1. I don't know.
2. Scientists are believing that the energy and matter have always existed, just like a theist would believe a god has always existed.
But saying that because science can't explain it means a God did it would be a god of the gaps argument.
"I don't know/science can't explain it, therefore God did it"
Posted by really12 1 year ago
really12
If the Christian God doesn't exist, then what does? If God doesn't exist then neither does Allah because Jesus is also one the Muslim prophets, also, Buddhism wouldn't exist either because they are open to other religious doctrines.

Are you insinuating that evolution is real? If so, what preceded the big bang?
Posted by Blazzered 1 year ago
Blazzered
I find it fun to debate this topic. Christians will argue that its impossible for me to lose the debate and that's why I choose it. That is untrue. I make these debates for a number of reasons.
To learn
To have fun
To prove my points
To hear others points
It's a popular topic
I have been searching for something else to debate but cannot find anything of interest to me at the moment.
Posted by ClashnBoom 1 year ago
ClashnBoom
Hey blazzerd why do yo keep making debates with the same topic namely does the Christian God exist ?
Posted by Blazzered 1 year ago
Blazzered
@creationtruth
I gave 5 main points. I just gave a lot of info on those points aha.

Also I am aware that you can't prove that a God exists. However I do believe you can disprove a Gods existence. An example is what we're doing with the bible, we are disproving it story by story, and I believe eventually we will have enough evidence to disprove all the stories of the bible, this meaning the Christian God does not exist, and Christianity will then be known as Christian mythology. Just like Roman, Greek, Egyptian, etc. this does not mean there is no God, it just mean the Christian God isn't real, but there's still the Hindu Gods, God of Islam, etc. that have the possibility of existing, until they are disproven as well.

This debate is for the Christians who do believe they can prove Gods existence. Again I am aware you can't prove a God exists, but I do run into many Christians who think they can prove that God exists, will make the claim that their God exists, and will try to bring forth evidence of the God. If you're wondering who are some people that make the claims that God exists, here are some people.

Joshua Feurerstein
https://m.youtube.com...

Godrules
https://m.youtube.com...

Frank Turek
https://m.youtube.com...

Shock of God
https://m.youtube.com...
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