Does the Christian god send aborted babies to hell?
Debate Rounds (4)
Round 2: Opening Argument
Round 3: Rebuttal
Round 4: Closing Statement
Rules: Must use NIV version of Bible.
I know that if the Christian god was real, he would send aborted babies to hell.
The logic behind this is simple. First, I must prove that god sends sinners to hell. Second, I must show that after conception, god sees you as a human who is sinful. Therefore we may conclude that aborted babies do go to hell according to the NIV Bible.
Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
God clearly says here that sinning leads to death. What kind of death? If taken out of context, it may appear he is only talking about physical death. However, he is indeed talking about spiritual death. I'm assuming you guys will agree with me on this point. Sinners without the gift of God go to hell.
Psalm 51:5 says, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
What does this mean? The moment you are conceived, god sees you as sinful. Therefore, if you are die without receiving the gift of god, you are eternally damned.
There must be some sort of grace period right? If there was one, I haven't found it ever mentioned in the Bible. God never states something like, "After age 6, you are accountable for your sins." If you do state that such a thing exists, please point it out in the NIV Bible. Thank you.
As you very clearly stated, the logic is indeed simple. God does send sinners to hell, and God does see all unborn children as sinners. These are points that I cannot refute. However, I feel that one more logical step is required before arriving at any conclusion, which lies at the very heart of my arguments in this debate. I must show that the shedding of Jesus' blood is sufficient to save them from their sins and escape eternal damnation.
1 John 2:2 states, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." This saying applies to all humans including those still in the womb. This is a very important detail concerning the destiny of any and all humans.
Romans 3:23-24 states, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Without Jesus' sacrifice, all humans (regardless of age) would be damned for an eternity in hell. But Jesus did come to atone for our sins, which gives all humans a chance at being redeemed. God has given us justification for allowing us to be in His presence in heaven, despite our sin.
Though there are no specific references to the destiny of the unborn within the scriptures, there is a story in the Bible which is closely related, which is found in 2 Samuel chapter 12. David had committed adultery which resulted in bearing a child. When Nathan told him that this child would die, David grieved and fasted until the child died on the seventh day. After the child died, he soon requested food and ate. When his servants asked about his behavior, David responded in 2 Samuel 12:22-23.
2 Samuel 12:23 states, "But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." David seems to make it very clear that he believes that he will go to his recently deceased child. How can this be so? Well, when David dies, it is very possible that he will cross paths with his dead child in eternity. But where will David be in eternity?
The first part of 2 Samuel 7:12 states, "When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors." God tells David that he will rest with his ancestors. I say that this must be a reference to heaven and not hell, simply because of the choice of words. The scripture says "rest", which is not anywhere close to a good description of hell, but it is a good description of heaven. That being said, David probably believed that he was going to heaven, thus his child too.
Why do I mention this story when it doesn't address the issue of unborn children? Well, I believe that we can draw from this story some details that are closely related and valid to my arguments. Although David's child was in fact born, he was just a young infant, with the same capabilities (or lack thereof) of believing in and obeying the Lord as any unborn child. If this young child of David would be in heaven, I state there is a strong possibility that unborn children of today will also have the same destiny when they die.
God says in the scriptures that all of it is inerrant. Proof of this would be 2 Timothy 3:16 which says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." Assuming this statement is true since Christians believe the Bible, we must take everything written in it as 100% accurate. Keep this in mind.
My next point is that Hitler, murderers, thieves, our parents, and unborn babies are equally as sinful. Proof of this would be James 2:10 which says, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." There are other parts of the Bible that contradict this. However, the whole Bible is completely accurate. We must believe that both are true simultaneously. This has 2 implications for your argument. Hitler is as innocent as an unborn child and also that babies are as guilty as Hitler.
To accept your reasoning that all sinners have the gift of god, we must conclude that we will see people like Hitler in heaven. This basically means that there will be nobody in hell! To accept my reasoning, we must conclude that aborted babies will go to hell and also anybody else who hasn't heard the word of god.
So are there people in hell besides the devil and the demons? The Bible says so. The Bible leads us to believe that Judas the betrayer was sent to hell in this passage. Acts 1:25 "That he may take the room of the ministration and apostleship from which Judas has gone astray to go to his own place." The point in this is to show that god doesn't just send everybody to heaven. There are indeed people in hell. Other possible candidates are Cain, King Saul, one of the men that Jesus was crucified with, and also the Pharaoh whose heart was hardened. These are ones that come off the top of my head and I think you will agree that they are "candidates."
So does god simply pick who he wants to go to heaven before they are even born? Possibly. Reading this passage should help explain what I mean. Malachi 1:2-3 declares, ""I have loved you,"" says the LORD. But you ask, 'How have you loved us?' "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."" Before Esau was born, god hated him. Was he sent to hell? Possibly. It seems as though Jesus earned the love of god for everybody, but only selects some to give it to. Another example of this would be Pharaoh. Exodus 9:12 says, "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses." God didn't give pharaoh a chance after that point. God selected him to parish, possibly.
One last thing. The Bible didn't say that the baby mentioned went to heaven. David got over it. This could mean that he just matured up and realized the consequences for his actions. That is all. Thanks for reading and good luck.
In Matthew 12:31-32, Jesus states "And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." In this saying, Jesus is reacting to the claims of the Pharisees in Matthew 12:24 when they accuse Him of doing works by the power of Beelzebul, the prince of demons, rather than by the power of the Holy Spirit. Some could argue that this unpardonable sin applies to any rejection of the powers of the Holy Spirit. So, it is clearly possible to reject the gift of God by rejecting the works of the Holy Spirit. I believe that it is likely that many of the "candidates" you mentioned before have rejected the Holy Spirit, and will find themselves in hell.
This was all a long-winded explanation as to how there can be a clear distinction between those who go to heaven and those who go to hell. It is not necessarily an all-or-nothing situation. However, I still need to address an important issue that you have brought up. There is still the apparent contradiction that all people are guilty and deserve punishment in hell. And while I have made the point that many of these people may in fact go there, I still have to address those who have received the gift of God, accepted Jesus, and go to heaven. They are deserving of punishment, as well, right? I hope this doesn't come as a surprise to you, but my answer to that question is a definite "yes".
Isaiah 53:5, it states, "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed." And Isaiah 53:12 ends with, "For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." Romans 8:34 ends with "Christ Jesus who died"more than that, who was raised to life"is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." My point here is that all who receive the gift of God still have a punishment that needs to be paid, but Jesus is the one who paid the price. He took our punishment for us, and to this day, he makes intercessions on our behalf to the Father. And I argue that there is no contradiction here. The believers in Christ are both guilty and redeemed, but it is Jesus who takes our punishment for us and also provides justification for our redemption.
Now that I've addressed all that, I feel that I must return to the issue of the aborted babies. Where do they fit into all this? To get to the root of the main question is to ask whether or not they receive the gift of God. In addition to the story of David's child who died in infancy, there is also Jesus' statements about children and the kingdom of God. In Matthew 19:14, Jesus says to "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." This shows that young children may be destined for heaven when they die, which includes the aborted. In Jeremiah 1:5 we see that "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." This verse is specifically about Jeremiah, but it demonstrates that God has purpose even for the unborn, and if they are aborted, that plan may include a life in heaven.
Great job. I have absolutely loved this debate, but it isn't over yet. I will show you that since babies are born spiritually dead, they are sent to hell according to the Bible.
Who exactly does god redeem? He makes it clear in Hebrews 11:6 by saying, "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." How about another passage? The gospel in a nutshell, John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Isaiah 59:1-2 says, "Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear. But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear." The moral of these passages is that we need to have faith in god. We need to actively seek god's forgiveness to earn it. Our sins have separated us from god. Only belief in god will save you from eternal damnation. Are 1 week old fetuses capable of this? Absolutely not. Therefore, god sends aborted babies to hell. That is my closing statement. Great debate again and good luck in the voting.
We can find a very specific example concerning John the Baptist. Luke 1:15 says, "for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born." And Luke 1:41 says, "When Elizabeth heard Mary"s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit." I love this example since it goes way back even before he was born. But you might say that John was a special case, and indeed he was. And it might be wise for us not to generalize too much from this.
One important requirement for a true belief in God might be that one must understand God's word. Is a very young infant capable of doing this? 2 Timothy 3:15 gets right to it, "and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."
Thank you. Good luck to you.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Paleophyte 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: No sources, good conduct to both sides. S&G also tied. Both sides also argued convincingly from scripture for their position so I'm unable to award arguments to either. Good arguments both. Sorry about the unhelpful tie vote.
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