Does the Quran preach violence
Debate Rounds (4)
Surah 2:193 - And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and the religion (all and every kind of worship) is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimin (the polytheists and wrongdoers).)
Ibn Kathir's commentary on this ayah - "Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said: (And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'
Surah 2:216 - Fighting is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.
Ibn Kathir - "In this Ayah, Allah made it OBLIGATORY for the Muslims to fight in Jihad against the evil of the enemy who transgress against Islam. Az-Zuhri said, "Jihad is required from every person, whether he actually joins the fighting or remains behind. Whoever remains behind is required to give support, if support is warranted; to provide aid, if aid is needed; and to march forth, if he is commanded to do so. If he is not needed, then he remains behind.'
Surah 4:74 - So fight those who trade the life of this world with the Hereafter, in the cause of Allah, and whoever fights in the cause of Allah, and is killed or gets victory, We shall bestow on him a great reward.
Ibn Kathir - Allah then said, (So fight) the believer with an aversion (to fighting), (those who trade the life of this world with the Hereafter) referring to those sell their religion for the meager goods of the world, and they only do this because of their disbelief and lack of faith. Allah then said; (And whoever fights in the cause of Allah, and is killed or gets victory, We shall bestow on him a great reward.) meaning, whoever fights in the cause of Allah, whether he was killed or triumphant, he will earn an immense compensation and a great reward with Allah.
Notice how the criteria for fighting are those who embrace a religion other than Islam, not because they fight you first.
Surah 5:33 - The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified, or their hands and their feet be cut off on opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.
Ibn Kathir - `Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil. Ibn Jarir recorded that `Ikrimah and Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that the Ayat, "Were revealed about the idolators. Therefore, the Ayah decrees that, whoever among them repents before you apprehend them, then you have no right to punish them. This Ayah does not save a Muslim from punishment if he kills, causes mischief in the land or wages war against Allah and His Messenger and then joins rank with the disbelievers, before the Muslims are able to catch him.
Surah 5:12 - (Remember) when your Lord revealed to the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.'
Ibn Kathir - means, `you -- angels -- support the believers, strengthen their (battle) front against their enemies, thus, implementing My command to you. I will cast fear, disgrace and humiliation over those who defied My command and denied My Messenger, strike them on their foreheads to tear them apart and over the necks to cut them off, and cut off their limbs, hands and feet. It was said that, refers to striking the forehead, or the neck, according to Ad-Dahhak and `Atiyyah Al-`Awfi.
Surah 8:39 - And fight them until there is no more Fitnah, and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah alone. But if they cease, then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.
Ibn Kathir - "So that there is no more Shirk.' Muhammad bin Ishaq said that he was informed from Az-Zuhri, from `Urwah bin Az-Zubayr and other scholars that the Fitnah mentioned here means, until no Muslim is persecuted so that he abandons his religion. Ad-Dahhak reported that Ibn `Abbas said about Allah's statement, "So that Tawhid is practiced in sincerity with Allah.'
Surah 9:5 - So when the Sacred Months have passed, then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Ibn Kathir - Mujahid, `Amr bin Shu`ayb, Muhammad bin Ishaq, Qatadah, As-Suddi and `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said that the four months mentioned in this Ayah are the four-month grace period mentioned in the earlier Ayah, Allah said next, (So when the Sacred Months have passed...), meaning, `Upon the end of the four months during which We prohibited you from fighting the idolators, and which is the grace period We gave them, then fight and kill the idolators wherever you may find them.' Allah's statement next, (then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, ON THE EARTH IN GENERAL, except for the Sacred Area. This honorable Ayah (9:5) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said, "It ABROGATED EVERY AGREEMENT OF PEACE between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.'
Surah 9:29 - Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Ibn Kathir - This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control. Allah said, (until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam, with willing submission), in defeat and subservience, (and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. (Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.)
Wow...this does sound like Islam is a religion of peace.
Surah 9:30 - And the Jews say: "Uzayr (Ezra) is the son of Allah,' and the Christians say: "The Messiah is the son of Allah.' That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. May Allah fight them, how they are deluded away from the truth!
Ibn Kathir - Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that `Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both groups to be liars, (That is their saying with their mouths), but they have no proof that supports their claim, other than lies and fabrications, may Allah fight them), Ibn `Abbas said, "May Allah curse them.'
Surah 9:73 - O Prophet! Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them, their abode is Hell, -- and worst indeed is that destination.
Ibn Kathir - Allah commanded His Messenger to strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and to be harsh against them. Allah also commanded him to be merciful with the believers who followed him, informing him that the destination of the disbelievers and hypocrites is the Fire in the Hereafter. Ibn `Abbas said, "Allah commanded the Prophet to fight the disbelievers with the sword, to strive against the hypocrites with the tongue and annulled lenient treatment of them.' Ad-Dahhak commented, "Perform Jihad against the disbelievers with the sword and be harsh with the hypocrites with words, and this is the Jihad performed against them.' Similar was said by Muqatil and Ar-Rabi`. Al-Hasan and Qatadah said, "Striving against them includes establishing the (Islamic Penal) Law of equality against them.' In combining these statements, we could say that Allah causes punishment of the disbelievers and hypocrites with all of these methods in various conditions and situations, and Allah knows best.
Surah 9:123 - O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you; and know that Allah is with those who have Taqwa.
Ibn Kathir - Allah commands the believers to fight the disbelievers, the closest in area to the Islamic state, then the farthest.
The evidence is conclusive, Islam teaches violence, unless you disagree with the greatest Muslim scholars to ever live, Muhammad's companions, and Muhammad himself, then maybe you should leave Islam. Because they were all in agreement that Muslims are commanded to fight the unbelievers, simply because they don't believe in Islam or because they associate partners with Allah.
You say that you are a Qur'an only Muslim, which makes you a heretic among the mainstream Muslim community. You may reject Hadiths and the interpretations of Ibn Kathir, but you don't understand my methodology.
I don't use Ibn Kathir to prove my contentions, the verses speak for themselves when read in context. I use Ibn Kathir and the Hadith to prevent Muslims from accusing me from interpreting it to my likening. Ibn Kathir and the early Muslims quoted the very passages I provided to prove that Islam allows Muslims to fight and subjugate unbelievers.
You say "well then, how do you explain the verses that encourage peace between Muslims and non-believers?"
Like I said, the Qur'an is basically a mish-mash of verses that seem to mostly deal with the situation that Muhammad was in.
This is what I like to refer to as the 3 stages of Jihad.
Stage 1 - When Muslims are in the minority, they have no other choice but to preach peace and tolerance. Stage 1 is the context in which the peaceful verses like Surah 119 were supposedly "revealed".
Stage 2 - When Muslims gain more power, they are allowed to employ defensive jihad. This is where verses like Surah 2:190 were "revealed".
Stage 3 - When Muslims are in the majority, you will then see the true face of Islam. At this stage Muslims are allowed to fight OFFENSIVELY, not only in self-defense. Which explain why verses like Surah 47:35 - Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost, for Allah is with you.
If you read the history of Muhammad's life and commentaries on the Qur'an, the 3 stages of jihad I just mentioned will become crystal clear.
In fact, whenever Muslims even today are out numbered, they preach peace and tolerance (stage 1). When Muslims gain more power, they employ defensive jihad, for example: when cartoonists make fun of Muhammad in Europe, they fight because the unbelievers are now causing mischief in the land. When Muslims are in the majority, they employ OFFENSIVE jihad (stage 3). Just look at all the Muslim majority countries. Christians are being persecuted left and right, churches are being burned, Christians are being killed on the streets, as well as any one else who is not a Muslim. I have yet to go ONE DAY without seeing a story of a Muslim mutilating or killing a non-Muslim SIMPLY for being non-Muslims.
And also, a recent poll done by AL-Jazeerah showed that 81% of Muslims in the Middle East support ISIS:
Further proof that the 3 stages of jihad is a reality, not myth.
Islam does teach violence, as I have established from the Qur'an and the companions of Muhammad.
If you know more than Muhammad and his companions, then maybe you should be the prophet of Islam, not Muhammad. Islam didn't start with you and it's not going to end with you.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I speak the truth in love, not hate.
My opponent said "I demmand you explain to me why are you so sure about Quranic abrogation and how do you know which verses came before and after ??"
Because the Qur'an itself says so:
Surah 2:106 - We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten EXCEPT that WE BRING FORTH ONE BETTER THAN IT OR SIMILAR TO IT. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?
If you have a problem with abrogation, then you have a problem with your Qur'an, not me.
My opponent said "even if you want to say Surat Al Tawba calls for offmsice Jihad when it says" Kill the infidels wherever you find them......" amd then why the next cerse in the same Chapter says"amd of any of the imfidels seek your refuge then give it to them and make thrm, hear Gods words and take them to a safe place" ?? Doeant this show that it isdeffensive since if the infidel was peaceful and sought refuge and didnt fight no ine may harm them??"
Yeah, the passage says "IF they seek protection, grant him protection, SO HE MAY HEAR THE WORDS OF ALLAH".
This isn't any better, the Qur'an doesn't say "if they seek protection, then protect them" it says "so they can hear the words of Allah". The Qur'an is basically forcing the polytheists to hear the words of Allah, if they refuse to hear the words of Allah, then no protection from Muslims.
My opponent said "It wasnt die or believe as you think it was for offensive infidels to die but peaceful ones to seek refuge and no harm on them and dont tell me this verse was abrogated because according to what youvbelieve this is the last Chapter of the Quran and in your beloef it is in stage 3 I demmand your explqnation of this! "
The last chapter of the Qur'an that were supposedly revealed was chapter 9. I can understand why Muslims, like you don't like quoting from it, it's the most violent chapter in the Qur'an. You asked me to provide you a verse where it says Offensive jihad is allowed...here it is:
Surah 9:29 - Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor the last day, nor hold that which is forbidden by Allah and his messenger until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Notice, the verse doesn't say "fight those who attack you" it doesn't say "fight those who are oppressing you".
The criteria for fighting people is given as "who believe not in Allah or his messenger".
The verse DOES NOT say fight those who are attacking you, so please don't try to put words into the Qur'an.
My opponent said "and in th same Chapter"Who kills a soul without being for justice incourt is as if he killed all the people amd who made it live as if he made all the people live"
This is by far I think your worst argument. Muslims in the West often quote Surah 5:32 (the one you quoted) in order to prove that Islam forbids killing. The key to interpreting a passage correctly is to READ IT IN CONTEXT. Either in the immediate context of the verse, the context of the chapter it is in, or the context of the Qur'an as a whole.
Let's see what Surah 5:32 ACTUALLY means when read IN CONTEXT:
Surah 5:30 - "And his soul permitted to him the murder of his brother, so he killed him and became among the losers."
quick note: it was Cain who killed Abel in this passage.
Surah 5:31 - "Then Allah sent a crow searching in the ground to show him how to hide the disgrace of his brother. He said, "O woe to me! Have I failed to be like this crow and hide the body of my brother?" And he became of the regretful."
Surah 5:32 - "BECAUSE OF THAT, We DECREED UPON THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
Because of what? Because of Cain murdering Abel. This law refers to who? The Muslims? No, the Children of Israel, as the passage clearly says.
Surah 5:33 - "THE PUNISHMENT OF THOSE WHO WAGE WAR AGAINST ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER and STRIVE TO MAKE MISCHIEF IN THE LAND is only this, THAT THEY SHOULD BE MURDERED OR CRUCIFIED OR THEIR HANDS AND THEIR FEET SHOULD BE CUT OFF ON OPPOSITE SIDES OR THEY SHOULD BE IMPRISONED; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.
Ibn Kathir on Surah 5:33 - "`Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil. "
So in context, the very verse that you quoted to prove that Islam doesn't allow killing, ACTUALLY allows Muslims to kill, crucify, and mutilate those who speak out against Allah or Muhammad.
With that said, The Qur'an is a violent book. It allows Muslims to fight when they are uppermost, it allows Muslims to mutilate people who make fun of their God or their prophet, it allows Muslims to disrespect non-Muslims.
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