Does the USA pose a greater threat to mankind's security than islam?
Debate Rounds (5)
1st round is acceptance, presuming you are con and therefore believe the islamic faith does possess a greater threat than the USA. I will start the debate in R2.
My opponent can ONLY raise new arguments related to subject matter from rounds 3 to 4. They must also refrain from semantics and any arguments that maybe construed as offensive or bigotry.
Thanks for Accepting.
I'll start by defending my argument topic, and consequently supporting you, my opposition.
In the comment thread, and to some people reading the argument it may be so that Islam's only a threat is of a 'terrorist nature' and therefore an unfair debate. Firstly i would like to declare this is simply not true. Islam as an Ideology poses a great threat, so called 'terrorists' are a small consequence of this belief system.
But what happens when this belief system is embedded into 1.5 Billion people, into political powers that control large amounts of resources and have made unprovoked threats to US allies simply on the the grounds of an islamic faith Qurans teachings. Combine this with being allied to countries such as Russia and tell me Islam does not pose a serious threat to Mankind.
I am of course referring to Iran and Israel. Iran will "raze" Israeli cities to the ground if the Jewish state launches an attack against it, threatened Ayatollah Ali Khameni only last Wednesday, an going feud the results of which will surely lead to a massive conflict. This is only one reason i believe the topic to be valid, as i do believe that Islam poses a serious threat to mankind.
Be that as it may i believe the USA poses a much greater threat to mankind for a plethora of reasons. It would be easy for me to argue this on the grounds of countries immense power, the colossal military spending budgets, 2150 nuclear weapons it has in action and ready to fire at any given moment, but i don think these grounds pose a strong enough argument. Instead it is politics, American corporations, foreign affairs and the NSA, The federal reserve system, 38% of the worlds superpower in controlled my 1% of its population, and 96% of its media are controlled by 6 men, (though perhaps irrelevant at this point are all Jewish).
I don't believe i need to go into detail just yet to explain why this sheer amount of wealth in such a small groups control whom not only arguably control the western world but indeed america and its President pose a serious threat, greater than any other. Nor how invading the middle east under false pretensions, without any real goal or purpose is quite possibly not only one the biggest frauds of our time, but also of the most dangerous interms the conflicts it may lead to.
So, instead i'll try to pre-empt and defend any arguments i believe may have arisen from my initial points of interest.
It is true a small ruling class is not an uncommon thing in most forms of government and nations, but unlike most nations, the US's is not held accountable as they are in control from an un-democratical privatised standing. They are not voted into power, nor are the majorities aware of their role. This is very dangerous.
I believe the NSA pose a massive threat to mankind's security as their spying is ultimately a form of control, this is unmatched by any nation on such a scale and is both highly dangerous, sinister and is illegal under the American Constitution.
The federal reserve is a private banking cartel. When the worlds only super power's economy is not controled by the people and their government (democracy) who is it controlled by? to what ends can they use it? What implications can it have on the rest of the world? Do you honestly believe this is not one of the most serious threats exixting today? Do you believe Islam may pose a more a serious threat?
All wealth aside, this topic is one of politics, ideology and manipulation, and on all counts does this capatalist "democracy" increase the likeihood of invading all of mankinds security.
I can see this is going to be an intelligent and constructive debate. I believe to understand which poses the bigger threat we must look at the bigger picture. America and Islam both exist in the same world and have influenced each other, so it is too complicated to weigh up which one individually poses the bigger threat. I will also argue that too determine which is the most destructive one, we must consider the ramifications of it no longer existing, as of this moment. Would you agree that might give some grounding for this relatively abstract and complex debate?
So, human cultures develop in much the same way. Women's rights, gay rights, animal rights etc. they tend to all evolve ins similar order and fashion. Differences may occur, but the same general progression persists. So, I would argue that America is one the furthest developed nations on earth, and typically the muslim societies are further behind. You would dislike the common views of people in America if you go back 100years or more. So I believe that the muslim societies, given enough time and resources, would become superpowers with corrupt, greedy powerful men just like in America. And society rarely develops backwards for a prolonged time and so, I believe, all nations will get like America in time and so removing America would just prolong the time until a new 'America' evolves.
In addition to this, America has a big movement for reform and revolution. It's social structure, like many developed states, allows for freedom of views. I am the biggest criticiser of our government, but it is still the best in the world in the sense that it gives the most hope. Population is not going to go back to the way it was and new times are here, we must learn how to organise ourselves. I believe America is closer to developing a proper way to conduct a large population than the states od Islam. America, though very corrupt, has a general zeitgeist of love and acceptance, equality and freedom. I believe that these qualities will come to control our society sooner or later, should the trend continue in the previous fashion. People are waking up and standing up against inequalities and injustices and corruption. The average person is far more powerful in western democracies than anywhere else in the world or history. It is only a matter of time before people stop taking $h!t, and in my opinion, it is going to happen in America or other western democracies before Islamic ones. So, although America maybe far more dangerous in terms of how many lives may be at risk in the near future, if it where to not exist, Islam would rise slowly into the same position as America and do the same things as America. Prolonging the time and ending up in the same position the world was as when America first ceased to exist.
So my point is that America may be bad, but its the best we have. It's the closest thing we have to a society that is loving and wise. It may not seem it at the moment, and it doesn't. But there is a growing concern for education reform, animal welfare, advertising problems, dumbing down of America, environmental sustainability. All these things are small and not dictating the affairs of the nation, but everything starts somewhere and these movements will only grow. I don't know of any such movements in Islamic countries. Once America wakes up, and it will before the Islamic countries most certainly, it will start setting things to rights. Islamic nations are just nations that are behind America in their social development, they will become 'America' if not stopped. Also because of its immense power, America will be able to make a huge influence in the world around it once it wakes up. America, and other western nations, are the closest to wisdom and justice. They may be corrupt, but that's just it, many Islamic countries aren't 'corrupt' because they don't need to hide their tyranny. Western countries must be corrupt because they fear the wrath of the people, this kind of practice doesn't last forever though as its always exposed eventually.
Your examples of dangerous American government, although very good, don't altogether persuade me as I would believe that all nations would do such things. It is part of the process of societies development. Social development seems to ultimately be a trend from totalitarian control to individual freedoms. Capitalism, democracy and the free market where advancements in freedom, in context of the age. Though now, like the pigs from George Orwell, the powerful people in marketing and government have abused their power. Which they would do in any society. America is closer in social development to the the time in which these people will be reigned in and brought under control. So my argument is basically that America (western democracy) will be the First Nation to evolve into a wise and sustainable nation, and so its current state is a necessary evil that cannot be avoided. It is better to leave America to finish it's evolution, and thus speed up the development of the rest of the world to this more intelligent and wise type of society. If we left it to Muslim countries it would take them much longer to get to the stage we maybe at in 10yeara, and they would go through a similar period that we are going through now anyway. And there's could be worse than ours.
Unfortuantely i'd have to disagree with most of what you said.
I'm going to list a few and explain why.
1. "I will also argue that too determine which is the most destructive one, we must consider the ramifications of it no longer existing, as of this moment. Would you agree that might give some grounding for this relatively abstract and complex debate?"
I dont actually. i fail to see how 'imaging' the US or Islam ceased to exist, as tremendous the ramifications may obviously be, sheds any light on; a) How destructive that country is,
& b) It's relevance to mankinds security.
2. "I believe, all nations will get like America in time and so removing America would just prolong the time until a new 'America' evolves".
Apart from the fact that statement makes no sence im going to try and respond.
Firstly, i certainly hope not. Amongst the highest rate of incarceration in the world, the country is second for obseity and in top 10 for cancer, diabeties and mental health disorders. I think as you put it.. "to let America finish evloving" is besides the point, not relevant how much of a threat it poses to mankind, and lastly a terrible stance to take on the country in general. America is world leader in many things, not however in managing societies. For example, "America, though very corrupt, has a general zeitgeist of love and acceptance, equality and freedom"... Your country for me (i'm British) is one of the furthest things from freedom, loving and accepting in my opinion, sadly. I put this down to the many legislations created to disable US citizens privacy and human rights, (I'm not insuiating that islamic nations have more freedoms, or even the UK). The death sentence is still legal for crying out loud, in most western societies this is highely fround upon, and is not NOT highly evolved. I'm just establishing, the US is a terrible role model for how country should be govenred in comparison to some EU and South American countries like Sweden, Denmark and New Zealand.
3. "America, It's the closest thing we have to a society that is loving and wise".
I dont feel the need to debate this, nothing against the US, i have good american friends, but that is an insane thing to think. I'm not sure if your in the position to, or have been, but you need to travle more.
4. "So, although America maybe far more dangerous in terms of how many lives may be at risk in the near future, if it where to not exist, Islam would rise slowly into the same position as America and do the same things as America"
... Kind of just agreed with me that the US poses a larger threat then wouldnt you say? Whiles im at it, who's to say what the future holds? (Though i'd much rather live in an American society than an islamic one, obviously). As you said, and i agree with and think its a very key point, people in the western world have a greater opportunity to 'change, protest, make a difference'.
5. "There is a growing concern for education reform, animal welfare, advertising problems, dumbing down of America, environmental sustainability. All these things are small and not dictating the affairs of the nation, but everything starts somewhere and these movements will only grow. I don't know of any such movements in Islamic countries".
...What???... You dont know of any such movements for reforms in islamic countries??? Please, i beg you, watch the news... Algeria, Baherain, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morroco, Oman, Saudi Arbia, Syria, Tunisia, Yemen... They have all faced mass protests the past few year for refroms varying from a call for democracy to basic human rights.
Conclusively, i could go on, but seeing as you agreed with my first argument, contradicted your own, havent actually stated how Islam may pose any real threat to Mankind, or convinced me that the US isnt as dangerous as i think it is, i'm quite happy to finish my argument there and wait for what i feel should be a stronger opposition.
Please focus on the body of the question, 'Islam as a threat to mankind'.
Tommy.leadbetter forfeited this round.
I'll try and be fair by presuming you have forfitted the round because you were not able to make it in time to post a reply, therefore passing this turn and waiting for a reply to my R2 argument.
The world is so complicated and there are so many variables that its too hard, without access to ALL the evidence of human suffering from across the world, to decipher which cause (America/Islam) has had a bigger influence of suffering. Nor is it entirely possible to say to what extent each influence (America/Islam) has effected the suffering. Following on from that, one must consider the future, and this has even more conflicting variables. So we are ignorant. Not no mention the propaganda and lies that we are told by both government and conspiracy theorists alike. And not to mention effects that are essentially 'knock on effects,' that can result in breaches of security. So in light of this ignorance, I look at things I can be quite sure of. That being: societies evolve, they evolve in a similar way to one another, the evolution tends to be a movement from power and tyranny towards fairness and freedom. This can be seen across the globe and throughout history. I would also argue that America (and when I refer to America I mean western nations), has evolved further than the Muslin nations. This I can elaborate on if you need me too. And though there is much wrong with America (I suspect the illuminati are real so I am not ignorant, indeed on the contrary, to the seriousness of it), I still believe that they are the closer to creating a fair world than Muslim countries are. Even if they pose a bigger threat to mankind, and cause more suffering, at the present moment.
So I am saying that all in all, Islam is more of a threat to mankind than America. I mean this philosophically and theoretically however, though truthfully. Whatever you say about America's affairs, it is not necessarily new for people to extract as much as they can and care not for who they trod on, nor is it new for nations to create large amounts of the most powerful weapons they have. And so I would say, from a philosophical approach, that all humans are going to reach the same stage as America. You believe this is stupid though I cannot understand why. You know other countries research science don't you? It would only be a matter of time before we find out how to make nuclear bombs. Also do you believe that the feudal system would last forever, and that rich individuals that where not born rich, would rise and become powerful? And do you think they would not attempt to exploit who they could? And do you think they would discover the addictive qualities of salt and sugar and manipulate food as too make people unhealthy? Not to mention all the other consequences of markets and greed.
You say that America is not close to being wise and loving. I get what you mean, I don't mean it is better than Sweden for example, but you are being to close minded. You must consider the context, look every society that has ever been before the 20th century, look at much of the world today. And tell me America (western nations) are not CLOSER to loving and wise than almost everywhere else. You can stand on the street and preach hate against the leader and be protected by the leaders police! There are small groups of open minded hippies who go and live in their own little communities and are not set upon. In my country (England) you are helped when you need it and in places like Canada companies cannot make you work certain days just so you spend it with your families. Criminals are innocent until proven guilty and have the right to an attorney. Also if you look at the Internet, there is so much love, wisdom and respect that comes from institutions in America, regarding rights and a better world for everybody. There is no utopia on earth yet but at least in America you can dream of one. That is how where most realities begin, in the hopes and dreams of the people.
Look at Rome, and tell me that security of the world would be better had it not been. Yet it caused more suffering than any other nation or religion alone. Had it succeeded and took over the whole world we would be hundreds of years n the future by now in my opinion. Yes if everyone just lived in peach we wouldn't need a Rome, but we don't and that much we can know. So if a nation looks like its going to create the world nation, and in that nation there is glimmers of hope and talk of love and wisdom, (though maybe not practice just yet) we should embrace it.
Focus on Islam you say? Islam, like Christianity and other religions, is making the relationship between the western world and the Muslim world more difficult. Religion gives people more stake in their world view and societal self-image. For example a non-religious person may see the logic in changing in a particular way, but religion can stifle this attitude to change and also create an identity that also becomes a factor in resisting change.
So I believe that, America may cause more suffering today than Islam, though that is questionable and difficult to decipher, and America probably has more potential to destroy mankind (nuclear) at this moment than Islam. But, America is much more likely to ensure the security of mankind 'indefinitely', than Islam is going to ensure the security of mankind indefinitely.
So I agree with you, but I question your meaning of the word 'mankind'. I believe it applies to the continuation and happiness of humans as a whole. and from that stand point, I believe America is going to help more than Islam and Islamic countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia. But from your standpoint, I gather, that refers to today and the next ten years or so, i believe America does have more destructive potential (nuclear arsenal) and may cause more suffering.
So is my understanding not what you where after?
TommyC forfeited this round.
Tommy.leadbetter forfeited this round.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Seeginomikata 3 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro made good points.
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