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Aztec_hebrew
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The Contender
toocoolblue
Con (against)
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Does the bible teach Calvinism?

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Voting Style: Open with Elo Restrictions Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/2/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 496 times Debate No: 97560
Debate Rounds (4)
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Aztec_hebrew

Pro

We can easily find examples of Calvinism being taught an example of pre destination would be Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Where you clearly see he chose to love Jacob while he hated Esau but they had done no evil or good.
Now you may ask why would a all loving Elohim damn Millions possibly billions of people before they we're even born well we get the answer in Romans 9 again

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Not only that but makes you think we are even worthy of being saved what right do we have to be saved?

Isaiah 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

This show we can not ever compare to the glory of El shaddai as even the most holy of men is yisrael could not compare.
toocoolblue

Con

Like many things, when you have only had a one sided view point presented, almost anything can seem logical.

Calvinists invariably consider the issue of "predetermination" only from the standpoint of those predestined for Heaven.

Before we get too much into bible verses, let me ask Pro a few simple questions - What kind of God would create people and then predestine them to an eternity of unimaginable suffering?

Matthew 7 (KJV) says -
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Therefore, according to the bible, most people on Earth will not go to heaven.

So.... Is a God that would create people just to torture them for eternity, in any way similar to a God who sent his Son to be beaten to a bloody pulp and then nailed to a Cross, upon which he died, thus making a path to Heaven for ANYONE who chooses to accept it?
Debate Round No. 1
Aztec_hebrew

Pro

Well to answer your question what right do have to be saved?
Does the potter not have freedom over the pot?
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

We are dead in our sins and we naturally wicked

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

We have obviously no right to salvation we are not worthy of it it is a amazement that any of us are saved and the mashiach died for the elect Or else his death would not be a full payment for sin because if he died for everyone then we would all be saved so I would like to ask you was this a full payment for sin or did mashiach fail and only pay half the price and we are forced to pay the rest?

Also you said I only see it from a Calvinist view point well that's because I believe that's how the bible was made I would like you to address the previous question and also the follow two I will ask
What does Romans 9:11-23 teach if not predestination?
And do you believe Elohim has full sovereignty?
toocoolblue

Con

Pro states- Well to answer your question what right do have to be saved?

Nowhere was this question asked.

Nowhere was this question implied.

Attempting to answer a question that was never asked is a cheesy debating ploy designed to hide a failed argument.

The fact that Pro cannot answer, what in truth, was the only question asked, largely shows the error of Pro's entire line of thinking.

So I ask the same simple question once again, perhaps, this time, Pro can be honest enough with himself or herself to realize that Calvinism cannot answer, because Calvinism is not taught in the bible.

The question is this -
Calvinism describes a God of Hate and Wrath, who creates people with no "Hope of Salvation", simply so he can throw them in a Lake of Fire for eternity, further Calvinism's God would have to be pretty stupid to predestine who goes to Heaven, forcing them to obey with "Irresistible Grace" and then have himself suffer to make that happen, when he could have created only the "predestined heaven bound" in the first place...So...how can such a ignorant, hateful, stupid God be reconciled with the a loving, intelligent, caring God described in the bible, who created a path to Heaven that called for HIM to suffer unimaginably so that ALL people would have a fair choice of Heaven or Hell, even loving us enough to give us freewill in the decision, not even Lucifer and his angels were forced to obey, the choice to rebel was theirs as it is ours, how can two Gods be the same thing?

Let me make it even simpler -
Which is taught in the bible, a God who creates people, just because he LOVES to see them SUFFER or a God who SUFFERED because he LOVES us and gave us the freewill to decide our own fate?
Debate Round No. 2
Aztec_hebrew

Pro

We I think you unfairly deprecated my argument and didn't not respond to my question but as I stated Elohim has 0 responsibility to save anyone again the potters freedom not only that but I'm wondering if you read Romans 9 it clearly shows he has the right to unleash his wrath upon anyone and he can be a warrior
Exodus 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name
Also you didn't use a single verse in your argument
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
Elohim is not just cruel being he allowes the non elect to have joy he is not at all obligationed to do so if fact it would be totally just for him to just destroye us now and you mentioned irresistible grace well if you believe he is really El shaddai (G-D almighty)as I do you why would you think he would ever fail at saving someone would he mourn forever since he didn't save who he wanted to save?
On free will if we truly beeline Elohim is ALL knowing wouldn't free will impose on this?
Also I would like you to answer my previous questions (check last post) and also are you a open theist? Do you believe he learns as he goes along?
toocoolblue

Con

I asked a question designed to bring the motives of God to the forefront of this debate.

Pro has responded by explaining that Calvinism's God is a God of War who "has the right to unleash his wrath upon anyone" and has "(zero) responsibility to save anyone", and "totally just for him to just destroye us now"

How can someone not comprehend that is the description of a Monster and not a loving God?

There is a significant difference between saying God has the right to "unleash his wrath" as he sees fit - and trying to justify Calvinism's Warrior God who eternally unleashes his wrath on Billions of innocent people which "He" predestined for Hell, just because "He" felt like it.

Once again..that's not a God that's a Monster.

Pro continually misinterprets, misunderstands and quotes scripture completely out of context to arrive at these incorrect conclusions.

Let's put scripture into context -

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Take very careful notice of the words ANY and ALL and WILLING.

This verse says the Lord is not WILLING that ANY should perish....But people DO perish, people DO go to Hell. So... God just told us that HE DOES NOT always have his WILL followed. How can this be?!?, except that God allows it to happen.

God has given us the choice to follow his will or to rebel. To say we do not have Freewill is to call God a liar.

Further, the verse says, "that ANY should perish and that ALL should come to repentance." The verse does not say - "not willing that only the SELECT ELITE FEW should perish, and that only the SELECT ELITE FEW should come to repentance."

ALL means exactly that - ALL people. ANY means anybody. God created no one without the hope of Heaven. All and Any mean EVERY SINGLE PERSON on Earth has a chance at salvation. Romans 1:20 tells us that people are "without excuse". To say God hasn't offered a path to Heaven to anyone willing to take it, is to call God a liar.

One simple verse and Calvinism is totally destroyed. But that's only one small verse, almost the entire bible would need to be completely re-written if Calvinism was true.

Pro continually refers to pottery to deffer from considering the horrific suffering Calvinism's God delivers to people created with no possible hope of salvation.

Pro's confusion is largely derived from Romans 9

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

To expose the actual meaning of the text, Verse 21 says - Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What pro fails to consider, (AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART) is -
How does one become a vessel of "honour" or "dishonour"?
Pro believes God predestines people to these roles and offers no choice, but the bible tells a different story.

The truth lies in 2 Timothy 2 verses 20 and 21

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

These verses tell us that WE DECIDE through OUR FREEWILL whether or not we are a vessel of GOOD or EVIL,"honour" or "dishonour".

The verses of Romans 9 are not referring to predestination, but rather how God interacts with people who have chosen to be EVIL. That once, like Pharaoh, referred to in verses 17 and 18, you have chosen EVIL, God may or may not use you for his glory, and that while on Earth, He may or may not have mercy on you.

This is confirmed in 2 Thessalonians 2 Verses 11 and 12
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
and Mark 4,10-12

The recurring theme of the book of Romans in Chapter 1 thru Chapter 11, is the interaction between Jews and Gentiles, something new for that time. The entire point of Romans 9 that Paul is trying to prove, apparently to Jews, who have been taught that they are God's predestined chosen people, is that the Gentiles also fall into this category. Thus Salvation is NOT something you are born or "Predestined" into - but rather, righteousness and salvation are obtained through FAITH, not BIRTH. For crying out loud, where do you think the "Romans Road" comes from?

Romans 9 starts out talking about Jews and Gentiles, and ends talking about Jews and Gentiles, (in fact, it's talking about Jews and Gentiles all the way through) how Calvinists have twisted what is in between, is beyond me.

Romans 9 -
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

To conclude -

Pro repeatedly asks why have I not responded to some silly questions, Pro may not understand my answer.

My response is that Pro has misinterpreted the character, motivations and scripture of God.

If my interpretation of scripture is correct, God is a loving God that made a way to Heaven for EVERYONE and then gave EVERYONE the freewill to accept or reject this path.

If Pro's interpretation of scripture is correct, God is a hateful, cruel and evil God that made a way to Heaven for almost NOBODY and then did not give his SLAVES the ability to change their fate and avoid eternal torture. Calvinism's God apparently also enjoys rape, child molesting, cancer, drug addiction, cannibalism, leprosy, birth defects etc. as everything is predetermined.

If Pro's interpretation is correct, than there is no answer to anything. Good and Evil are the same thing and produce the same result on Earth.

If you are born predestined for Hell, then you are crazy to care about anything but yourself. Just live a life of unlimited sin and evil, because no matter how hard you try, how much you pray, how much good you do in life, Calvinism's God still condemns you to be tortured in Hell for eternity. So why bother to do good?

If you are born predestined for Heaven, then you are crazy to care about anything but yourself. Just live a life of unlimited sin and evil, because no matter how little you try, how little you pray, how little good you do in life or how much you hurt other people, Calvinism's God still rewards you with Heaven. So why bother to do good?

How can Calvinists think so much of themselves and so little of God?
Debate Round No. 3
Aztec_hebrew

Pro

Well I would like to start off by thanking Con for a great debate and actually would like to invite him to a second debate on the same subject I hope you will accept my offer

I'm a bit disappointed that Con did not respond to any of my questions and dismissed them as silly.

My points still stand as HE does not realize al his wrath on us and we are not innocent as Con stated we are all worthy of death so he is not a monster as con said because he doesn't destroy every last one of us at this moment I think is the fundamental difference between us I see us as dead in our sins while you see your self as innocent and I see it as Elohim is sovereign and has no obligation to save us as we are obviously dead in our sins and are not worthy of being saved while you seem to think you have a right to be saved.

Now on 2 Peter 3:9 let's look at the word any first in English then in Greek
an"y
G2;enē/
determiner & pronoun
1.
used to refer to one or some of a thing or number of things, no matter how much or many.
"I don't have any choice"
2.
whichever of a specified class might be chosen.
"these constellations are visible at any hour of the night"
I want to bring attention to the second meaning but now for the Greek

Strongs G5100 Pronunciation
tēs (Key)
Part of Speech
pronoun
Root Word (Etymology)
An enclitic indefinite pronoun
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
KJV Translation Count " Total: 448x
a certain, a certain one
some, some time, a while

As we see the Greek simply does not match your point and Any does not mean everyone as you stated

You claim I misunderstood Romans 9:21 but if you read it is clear the potter made one to be honour and one dishonour
They did not become that they were made like that

On 2 Timothy 2:20 we all have a purpose I hope you don't think I believe that only the elect have purpose and we are not capable of not falling into sin we are naturally evil

You say if we are predestined to hell we should live a sinful live if we want and reverse if we are predestined to hell
Well the problem with that is that we don't know if we are elect or not and remember the elect are the only ones who truly believe in the messiah and Elohim so would they do all these wicked deeds probably not I think you have the roles flipped on the last statement we don't believe we can demand salvation we don't believe we have a right to it but we do believe Elohim is all powerful so if he wants to save someone he will and evil is in this world because it's needed

Thank you for your time and I hope the voters objectively look at this and once again Thank you for your time con and I hope we can have further debates.
toocoolblue

Con

First let me apologize for using the word- Silly. I intended to edit that out, but forgot, so, I'm sorry about that.

It saddens me deeply that rather than give fair consideration to anything I've said, you (Pro) have chosen to take this rather alarming course of action to reply.

Pro posted-
As we see the Greek simply does not match your point and Any does not mean everyone as you stated
Strongs G5100 Pronunciation
tēs (Key)
KJV Translation Count " Total: 448x
a certain, a certain one
some, some time, a while

That is NOT what Strong's Concordance says and Pro knows it, that is why no link was provided to support Pro's claims, such links will be provided to support my claims.
Here is what Strong's actually says -
Part of Speech: Indefinite Pronoun
Transliteration: tis
Phonetic Spelling: (tis)
Short Definition: any one, some one
Definition: any one, some one, a certain one or thing.
http://biblehub.com...

In removing the words "any one" from his reply, Pro sadly demonstrates the need to resort to intentional deception to save Calvinism.

Thousands of Scholars over Hundreds of Years have produced many different English translations of the Bible, and they don't agree on many things. Yet I cannot find single Bible that translates the word "tis" in any way other than how I accurately described it.

Here is a link to 55 different English translations -
https://www.biblegateway.com...
53 different translations say the word "tis" is correctly translated as - any or anyone.
The 2 that are different change the word to - 1. Everyone and 2. No Man

You don't have to lie, to defend the truth, but is that what is required to be a Calvinist?

Literally, the oldest trick in the book, in Genesis, begins - Yea, hath God said, and then Satan proceeds to pervert God's word. When Satan attacks Jesus in Matthew 4 and Luke 4, he does so by attempting to pervert God's word but in each case Jesus responds to the attacks the same way, by saying, "It is written.." and then correctly stating God's word.

Satan is the father of lies, John 8:44 and has attempted to sow confusion from the very beginning. But the way we must defend ourselves is to rightly study and know the Bible.

2 Peter 3:9 is only one of, what is honestly, too many verses for me to actually count, that either have to ignored or removed from the Bible to save Calvinism. In fact, if "Predestined" to be saved by "Irresistible Grace" , why would a Calvinist even need a Bible, in the first place?

I will attempt to point just a few of the verses Pro must ignore to remain a Calvinist.

1. 1 Peter 4:12 tells us life is a - fiery trial which is to try you
Why would you need a trial if the verdict is "Predetermined"?

2. Hebrews 9:27 tells us - it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Why would you need to be judged if the verdict was "Predetermined"?

3. Revelation 12:10 tells us - the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Why would you need a accuser if the verdict is "Predetermined"?

4. 1 John 2 tells us - we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: Why would you need a advocate if the verdict is "Predetermined"?

The Bible teaches us that life is a trial, and that all of us have the freewill to choose to listen to what God says or to ignore it.

To claim that God only cares about an exclusive club of select individuals, directly contradicts almost the entire Bible.

The following verses state that salvation is available to EVERYONE -

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (WHOSOEVER not some!)

In Luke 10:25-28 - a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? (Jesus does not answer, Sorry, you must be "Predestined" or your out of luck.)

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (The word "He" is not modified to mean anything other than everyone.)

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Note it doesn't say only an elite few are saved through "Predestination" but rather YE meaning ANYONE. And that we are saved by GRACE through FAITH not "Predestination")

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (It doesn't say teach SOME of the people in SOME of the nations it says TEACH ALL NATIONS)

Imagine walking up to a new born baby and shouting SPEAK GERMAN! and then burning the baby with a lit cigarette when he can't. Then screaming SPEAK FRENCH! and then burning the baby with a lit cigarette when he can't. Then screaming SPEAK ENGLISH! and then burning the baby with a lit cigarette when he can't.

That is the role Calvinists have cast God into. He creates people who cannot accomplish what he requires of them and then punishes them for eternity for not being able to do WHAT HE PREVENTED THEM FROM DOING!

This is probably the most insulting idea that has ever been preached.

To me, (if that means anything), preaching this false doctrine, definitely falls into the category of taking the LORD'S name in vain. God has done so much for us, suffered unimaginably to pay a debt beyond our ability, in probably the greatest miracle ever done, exchanged my sin and ignorance for his righteousness.

How can you preach a doctrine that denies that undeserved gift to everyone?
Debate Round No. 4
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by canis 1 year ago
canis
Why ask about a book ?..Ask YOU..
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