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The-Holy-Macrel
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The Contender
A341
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Does the christian god exist?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/10/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 473 times Debate No: 63023
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
Votes (0)

 

The-Holy-Macrel

Pro

Use any arguements.
Round one-acceptence
Round two to four-arguements
Final round-conclusion

The one rule for this debate is that is not to be personal.
The best of luck to my opponent.
A341

Con

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
The-Holy-Macrel

Pro

Thank you for accepting this debate. The best of luck to you.

For my first arguement i would like to use the theorem:

Big Bang -> cause -> ???
Big Bang -> cause -> God -> cause -> ???

It was intended for anti-god but i will use it for pro-god.
"Every Cause has its Effect; every Effect has its Cause; everything happens according to Law; Chance is but a name for Law not recognized; there are many planes of causation, but nothing escapes the Law."
There has to be a cause for something to happen. Since this is so what "caused" god?
My awnser god. God must have created itself. The reason being there was an intent. The universe is matter it doesn't think or do anything. But if there is a mind behind it there is both a reason and cause. Because there is a reason to exist there is a cause.

1. Every being that exists is either contingent or necessary.
2. Not every being can be contingent.
3. Therefore, there exists a necessary being on which the contingent beings depend.
4. A necessary being, on which all contingent things depend, is what we mean by �€""God�€�.
5. Therefore, God exists.

And so god exists.

Arguement 1 part 2--

Since there is a god (supported by part 1) i will now use a priori arguement.
This is the classic ontological, or a priori, argument. It was first articulated in 1070 by St. Anselm, who argued that because we have a conception of an all-perfect being "" which he defined as "that than which nothing greater can be conceived" "" it has to exist. In his essay Proslogion, St. Anselm conceived of God as a being who possesses all conceivable perfection. But if this being "existed" merely as an idea in our minds, then it would be less perfect than if it actually existed. So it wouldn't be as great as a being who actually existed, something that would thus contradict our definition of God "" a being who's supposed to be all-perfect. Thus, God must exist.

Therefore the god that exists must be perfect.

Arguement 1 part 3--

So assume there is anther god(or god) insted of the christian god.
Allah and Elohim -- the gods of Islam and Judaism have pretty much the exact same belief as christians. It is compared here:
http://www.answering-islam.org......

Now lets look at the greeko-roman belief -- they made them in thier own image so pretty much they litterally made them up.

The only diffferance between judaism, islam, and christianity is belief in jesus, and what happened in the biblical, tanakh, and quran times. God did not create sin lucifer did in christianity and judaism, but what about islam? Allah created sin. And his creation but cannot enter into the world. Allah is a kind god according to the quran though. I will argue the islam P.O.V. with if he could he would.

Therefore the christian god is the only perfect/pure god.

Conclusion of parts 1, 2, and 3.

Therefore the christian god exists and is the only god.

http://io9.com...
A341

Con

Existence of God

Your argument for the existence of god is based on two unsubstantiated principles:

1. The A theory of time is correct. That being that

2. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

Frankly when it comes to whether or not the A theory of time is correct no one really knows but this doesn't mean you can simply assume the validity of the A theory of time. But when it comes to the claim that everything that begins to exist has a cause we know that this is false from quantum mechanics which describes the properties of quantum items as probabilities. It is impossible to know which radioactive atom will decay because it is not cause by anything therefore your model of causation is invalid.

Does the Christian God Exist

Assuming that the bible is an accurate source for the reality of the biblical god (it would be a bit of a contradiction if it wasn't) we encounter some problems:

1. The numerous contradictions:

God is omniscient[1], God is not omniscient[2].

God is unchangeable [3] god is changeable [4].

God cannot lie [5] god can lie [6].

2. It's polytheistic roots:

Yahweh is known to have been a deity of the polytheistic Canaanites [7].

3. The contradictory properties of Yahweh:

Now no matter what omniscience is impossible, nothing can know everything because every sentient being has to make the three basil assumptions:

The assumption that we experience the universe through our senses,
The assumption that knowledge exists,
The assumption that models with predictive capability are more effective than models with only descriptive capability.

Because these assumptions must be made by every sentient being it is impossible for any being to be omniscient. Therefore because there is a logical impossibility in the definition.

And now for omnipotence. Omnipotence can be shown to be impossible by a very simple question and that is can god create an object that god can't effect? If god cannot create this object then god isn't omnipotent and if god can create this object then god is also not omnipotent because god cannot effect an object.

Now (luckily for me) you constricting this to the Jewish god constricts this debate to this reality in which two statements of fact cannot contradict each other for instance a square cannot also be a circle or a being cannot be all forgiving and order the deaths of thousands.

Now Yahweh is claimed to be both all forgiving [8] and orders the deaths of hundreds of thousands [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14]. Yahweh is also claimed to be all righteous [15] and orders the killing of unbelievers [16].

[1] 1 John 3:20

[2] Genesis 3:8-13

[3] James 1:17

[4] Genesis 6:6

[5] Hebrews 6:18

[6] 1 Kings 22:23

[7] CANAANITE MYTH AND HEBREW EPIC by von Frank Moore http://books.google.co.uk...

[8] Isaiah 30:18

[9] Judges 21:10-24
[10] Numbers 31:7-18

[11] Deuteronomy 20:10-14

[12] Zechariah 14:1-2

[13] Deuteronomy 13:13-19

[14] Exodus 12:29-30

[15] Job 37:23

[16] 2 Chronicles 15:12-13
Debate Round No. 2
The-Holy-Macrel

Pro

First I would like to point out there is a difference between Judaism and Christianity, the point being that it specifically the Christian god, not the Jewish one. The difference being Jesus dieing on the cross. The in the Judaism belief they don't believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins.

--Rebuttal's

1--There is no way of knowing what senses god actually has so therefore the argument of having s"ances that leads to the conclusion of being not omniscient is unsound.

2--Genesis 6.6: And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
He did not change, he would of already thought that.

3--1 kings 22.23: Now therefore behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these thy prophets
He didn't lie, he sent something to make someone lie. The thing that was lieing already lied, god wasn't/never lied.
Therefore he didn't lie.

4--if you are Christian you understand god's perfect understanding of justice/mercy. He does have mercy but they didn't deserve/want it because their hearts were too hardened. (this is backed up in Argument 1 part 3)

5--killing un-believers is indeed righteous (backed up by Rebuttal 1 part 4 because it is the same question of what is right and wrong which is supported by the same thing (Argument 1 part 3) )

Verdict1--arguement 1 part 2 backs up arguement 1 part 3, and arguement 1 part 2 is backed up by arguement 1 part 1.
A1 --> A2 --> A3 --> rebuttal's/and/verdict
..^.........^.........^...
solid arguement in order of support.

Verdict2--About your two unsustainable principals: it is actually one like my Verdict1 statement are for getting to one conclusion which is why it is considered that the absolute base (mine being Arguement 1 part 1) is "innocent until proven guilty", in other words you must prove that it isn't possible/plausible/true for it to be unraveled being its current state.
In other words: it can't be false in an arguement/debate/trial until proven so. You suggest that it could be either or making it so although it already was.

Conclusion: God does indeed exist. (supported by preceding arguement.)

BTW/GG:you are still good at this please do not be insulted.
A341

Con

I apologise but due to increased workload I was unable to write an argument in the given time for this debate. Please vote Pro. If pro wants to restart this debate then please message me. Again you have my apologies.
Debate Round No. 3
The-Holy-Macrel

Pro

Ok i will gladly restart if it is you will but would rather have it titled "Does the christian god exist? Continued"
I understand your workload.
A341

Con

Sure, I'll PM you in a couple of days.
Debate Round No. 4
The-Holy-Macrel

Pro

The-Holy-Macrel forfeited this round.
A341

Con

A341 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by The-Holy-Macrel 2 years ago
The-Holy-Macrel
Don't lower yourselves to lowly levels.
Posted by Foxyyy 2 years ago
Foxyyy
@Neoman you say that there is no way to prove the existence of heaven or hell so we have to assume they don't exist, which is what anyone with any logic would do. Where is the logic in that statement? There is no evidence against it, which gives us no reason to believe against it either. It was written thousands of years ago and explained things that we had no idea there was even evidence for. Now we have evidence of a rapidly expanding universe, which supports the idea of Creationism, which was proposed thousands of years before we had evidence that supported it. We have a book that recorded events from long before we have records for anything of the sort, so you conclude that we are wasting our time if we listen to it. That doesn't even make any sense! You seem to think you are a very logical thinker. Maybe you should check your logic before saying things like that.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Anthony...... You said that Jesus did not exist. He was there in creation. It was he who God told satan that he would send one that would put his heel on his head.Then Jesus showed up.The rest is also history.There are many Jewish Christians. They saw Jesus in the old covenant and believed. Just like I did.And there are muslims who became Christians from reading the Koran.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
I take by faith that Jesus and the Father are right where they say they are. You folks take by faith they are not there.Neither of us have peeked past our own deaths to " see" for sure.It would behoove people to listen to the wisdom of that ancient book. It says we should not borrow. Just think how better off everyone would be if they followed that [principle. America would not be in debt in to the tune of almost $18,000,000,000,000.00 That is just the federal government. Every local, and state government are in trouble today because of debt. And families have been destroyed because of financial problems.

God said, " life and death are in the power of the tongue". Where else do you find that kind of wisdom.And those people who wrote that book were very wealthy people. Got that way from the promises and covenants of God.You two are both idiots in intelligent clothing .
Posted by The-Holy-Macrel 2 years ago
The-Holy-Macrel
I have done an arguement for the existence of god before don't worry i know what i am doing.
Posted by Anthonyd114 2 years ago
Anthonyd114
The Christian god does not exist. The god of the Christians is not the same god of the Jews and Muslims.
Posted by Neoman 2 years ago
Neoman
@raytrek exactly my toughts. Christian god exists only in the mind (or heart, or kidney, colon whatever) of people who chose to believe it. Yet, i find no reason to live by a book which was written 1000s of years ago on a skin of an animal, basically telling us we will go to "heaven" if we acceptit, and we will suffer in "hell" if we dont. Since noone can proove if there is hell/heaven we have to consider the otherwise version of this (which any person with considerable amount of logic would do). Following an ancient history book's instructions which was written by basically cavemen thus, wasting the only life we have.
Posted by Raytrek 2 years ago
Raytrek
I'm a Cynic so I tend to measure things by relevance, I don't find a belief in God to personally be relevant, but I understand others do find it relevant for coming to terms with life and death, rationalising what they struggle making sense of. I think if beliefs help them become better people I have no objection, I have no grounds to object, but if not then by hurting people they are putting themselves in danger of consequences, besides the immorality of hurting others itself, that I can find objection to.

So does the Christian God exist, absolutely, in the minds of people and effectively in their behaviour it is a very real thing.
Posted by The-Holy-Macrel 2 years ago
The-Holy-Macrel
... I will consider doing that.
Posted by Jonbonbon 2 years ago
Jonbonbon
Make it four rounds and I'll accept.
No votes have been placed for this debate.