The Instigator
WKOJ
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
ZeldaMafia
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Donald Trump's Policies Are Just

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/31/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 281 times Debate No: 94291
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

WKOJ

Pro

Hi, all!

My BOP in this argument is to disprove any belief that Donald Trump's policies is not just!

I. Immigration Policy

In the United States, there is an unreasonable influx of illegal immigrants south of the border that has simply made too much of the American people jobless and pushed the economy towards dependence on manual labour (http://www.fairus.org...). These immigrants are also leeching off the dysfunctional American welfare system that has stolen money out of the wallets of hard-working Americans and placed them in the hands of illegal migrants (http://cis.org...). The policy Trump has of building a wall and toughening immigration reform along with deporting the illegal immigrants can be expected to positively impact the American economy by giving back jobs to American workers and reserving money back to the government.

II. Temporary Ban On Muslim Entrance

There has been a series of terrorist strikes all across the globe and Trump is determined to prevent the next one being in the American homeland. The ban on Muslims that Trump has proposed from entering the US is reasonable considering that it was radical Islam that has been responsible for the recent attacks across the Earth (https://en.wikipedia.org...). The ban will prove a point to ISIS and their plans to infiltrate the American nation by showing Trump is willing to take any measures necessary to show his dominance and perseverance over American will against Islamic radicalism (http://nationalinterest.org...).

I hope Con makes good arguments in the next round!
ZeldaMafia

Con

Hey everyone, I have accepted the Debate and will be debating that Donald Trump's policies are not just.
My opponent has not placed some specific rules and regulations, so I'll just jump right in to counter his points first and then move ahead with my own.

I) Immigration Policy

This is a really controversial topic but I have evidence against it.

Firstly, The 11 million-plus undocumented immigrants living in the United States contribute an estimated $11.84 billion in state and local taxes each year, according to a study by the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy. That"s a conservative estimate based on 2012 numbers. It"s now thought to be closer to $12.6 billion. The study, based on data from 50 states, calculates that comprehensive immigration reform would boost the U.S." annual revenue flow by an additional $2.2 billion. http://www.epi.org...

Secondly, the cost of deportation is extremely high. The Center For American Progress once estimated that the five-year cost of enforcing a mass deportation strategy in the U.S. would be $285 billion.
https://www.americanprogress.org...

A total cleansing of all undocumented immigrants would take approximately 20 years and cost U.S. taxpayers between $400 billion and $600 billion, according to a more recent study by the American Action Forum.

Thirdly, let's ask ourselves honestly, really are all Mexicans rapists, drug dealers and terrorists? The answer, even though it may be a hard pill to swallow for all pro Trumpsters, is no. Not all Mexicans are terrorists. The argument that undocumented immigrants are "criminals" and/or "rapists" is so preposterous and unsubstantiated that it doesn"t merit a serious response from any sane-minded person. Immigrants usually do jobs such as entrepreneurship. Infact, most Mexican immigrants are more likely to start businesses than US citizens.
Immigrant-owned small business"defined as those with at least one and fewer than 100 employees, and in which more than half of the owners were immigrants"has jumped 58 percent since 1990. (There were 3.1 million such businesses in 1990; in 2010 there were 4.9 million.) They were responsible for 538,551 new small businesses during the 20-year period, or roughly a third of all those created.
https://www.americanexpress.com...

And Lastly, With an estimated cost of $4 million per mile, building an additional 700 miles of a border wall along the U.S.-Mexican border would cost ".um, hold on one sec, carry the one, add three more zeros"about $2.8 billion. Also, immigrant labor " which currently represents some 20 percent of the construction labor force " won"t be building that wall on the cheap, so you better plan to budget some extra coin to afford unionized U.S. bricklayers at $22/hour. In short, the per-mile cost of building the wall will be much more expensive than the per-mile cost of building a tunnel underneath it.

http://fusion.net...
http://www.huffingtonpost.in...

2) Ban on Muslims

I firstly want to make this absolutely clear, if Trump got his way and actually put a ban on Muslims, trust me it would not in any way be "temporary". You can see for yourself over here https://www.donaldjtrump.com... "Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States".

Secondly, i would like to point out that Islam and Radical Islam are two completely different things. Muslims follow the religion of Islam and not Radical Islam as my opponent put it. Just because you saw maybe a dozen or a thousand videos of Terrorism by a Muslim person, does not in any way mean that the entire 1.5 billion Muslims out there are terrorists and ought to get you.

Thirdly, let me clear my opponents misconception that "The ban will prove a point to ISIS and their plans to infiltrate the American nation by showing Trump is willing to take any measures necessary". No, absolutely wrong.

Let me put it more simply. The ISIS, Al Qaeda and other Radical Islamists are looking for opportunities to attack the citizens of the world. Donald Trump's policies will just further their hate for the western world. Policies like banning Muslims will be considered a downright offense in their eyes and they will conduct more of these hideous crimes like mass shootings and bomb blasts to get their message across.

http://www.politifact.com...
http://www.businessinsider.in...
http://www.businessinsider.in...
Can you actually believe this? Trump being featured in an ISIS propaganda video?

New points -

1) Against ObamaCare
(GOP Debate, February 2016)
During the wonkiest moment of last week's GOP debate, Trump repeatedly and repetitively argued " to much mocking by Marco Rubio " that "we have to get rid of the lines around the states" so that there's more competition. But few experts think that such a reform alone would do much to reduce costs or expand coverage in a post-ObamaCare world. Indeed, most center-right health-care plans include it as only one component of far more comprehensive reform. If "selling insurance across state lines" is the core of your ObamaCare replacement plan, then it roundly deserves to be mocked.

Now let me elaborate on how important ObamaCare is and will be in America. . Rand reports that in summer of 2013, there were 42 million uninsured Americans. By February of 2015, that number had fallen to 25.8 million. That is, nearly 17 million more Americans have health care than before Obamacare.
The country"s uninsured rate was 17.1% in 2013, and it declined dramatically to 11.9% during the first quarter of 2015.

2)"I believe global warming is the single biggest problem in our country, but it"s made of the nuclear variety, do you understand that? That"s the one we have to be careful of. " Because we have a president that talks about global warming and he doesn"t talk about the other problems that we have."

Here Trump tells us that Global Warming isn't important. Trump"s underlying policy goal here is actually dismissing calls for federal action to cut U.S. emissions by raising the profile at a presidential level.

Policies like these and more that I will cite next round are the reasons why Trump's Presidency is questionable.
---------------------

Ending in a happy note, however.
Hope to hear from you.
Thanks! Best of Luck! :)
Debate Round No. 1
WKOJ

Pro

Wow, what a huge argument! I thank Con for giving strong rebuttals.

I. Immigration Policy

I have to say that the claim Con is making would not be equivalent to the cost that American families are experiencing due to job loss. It is because of immigrants that the government might be getting money like Con says, but it is the individual who is losing more (http://www.factcheck.org...).

As for the cost of a mass deportation strategy, it is best to think of it as a long-term investment. The jobs of deportation would also go to Americans and would eventually help out the economy!

I never said Mexicans are rapists and criminals, please don't put words into my mouth. However, you can't deny the job loss that came from Mexicans taking jobs of Americans that my previous 2 sources provided.

I also name the wall that Trump has offered to be another investment and that Mexicans will find it much harder to get through, especially since alternative methods to pass are just assumptions.

II. Ban On Muslims

Your site does not back up your claim that it is permanent. Trump has said that it was only a temporary ban on Muslims (https://www.washingtonpost.com...).

Gee, I'm sure Islam doesn't pose a threat to American values considering that more than 5 nations in the Middle East are Islamic States, including Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen (https://en.wikipedia.org...)!

Con also does not make an actual argument regarding my statement as proving a point to ISIS,

Con ends his argument with another assertion thinking that it would only infuriate the Middle East from these policies when it shows that the U.S. isn't stupid, and you also admit that 'Muslims will be considered a downright offense in their eyes and they will conduct more of these hideous crimes like mass shootings and bomb blasts to get their message across.'

III. Obamacare

Con doesn't make many statistical arguments regarding Obamacare other than saying that repealing deserves to be mocked. Obamacare has only taken money from the citizens of the U.S. and giving it to the lazy who refuse to work (http://www.powerlineblog.com...)! Obamacare also forced the uninsured Americans by taking away their rights to be uninsured by substitution of a failed government aspect. The government has no business in healthcare!

IV. Global Warming

The U.S. is only the second biggest polluter of the world. We can't make a difference is China doesn't make a difference. Global Warming is also though to be a liberal scare-tactic to stop government pollution,

I thank Con for providing his arguments!

ZeldaMafia

Con

I thank Pro for making strong counter-arguments.
Let's start by countering the previously made arguments.

1) Immigration

Pro states that "The jobs of deportation would also go to Americans and would eventually help out the economy!" This is wrong, because Migrants help the U.S. economy a lot. As I have already explained with http://www.epi.org... . Migrants contribute more than 12 billion $ to the US Economy only in taxes.

I have never said that Pro said that Mexicans were rapists and criminals. These claims and false accusations were made by Trump himself. And since we're debating on the legitimacy of his policies, I thought of adding them in. In a way, thanks for admitting that Mexicans are not criminals, because Donald Trump himself has claimed that they are, multiple times on multiple occasions on his immigrant policy and "building a wall". https://www.youtube.com...

Pro has not in any way countered my point about the feasibility of building a wall on the border. Let me restate my point, "With an estimated cost of $4 million per mile, building an additional 700 miles of a border wall along the U.S.-Mexican border would cost about $2.8 billion. Also, immigrant labor " which currently represents some 20 percent of the construction labor force " won"t be building that wall on the cheap, so you better plan to budget some extra coin to afford unionized U.S. bricklayers at $22/hour."
http://wapo.st...

2) Ban on Muslims

The site which I had linked said "Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on". This is his actual statement and I haven't changed or edited anything at all. Now I don't know what Pro can't understand but "until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on" does not in any way mean "temporary". Donald Trump is known to have contradict himself in many instances, going from supporting something dearly to hating it all of a sudden and we shouldn't be surprised if he does so again. I will give citations later on, in this round.

The next paragraph is quite funny to read, because I realise my opponent does not know the difference between Islam and the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS). Let me make this absolutely clear however, ISIS operates only in Iraq and Syria. All the Other 3 countries Pro has listed (Iran, Yemen and KSA) are actually completely against ISIS. Saudi Arabia and the UAE actually part of the Islamic Military Alliance, determined to fight ISIL. https://en.wikipedia.org...
Iran even went up to the point of asking China to join in and fight.
http://www.jpost.com...

I have not made any real argument regarding ISIS?

I actually have. But first, let me make it crystal clear that I have not admitted what Con claims in his last paragraph under Ban on Muslims.

The actual statement from my first round was "Policies like banning Muslims will be considered a downright offense in their eyes and they will conduct more of these hideous crimes like mass shootings and bomb blasts to get their message across." Just removing the first three words and then claiming that I was the one who spoke it, in my opinion is very cowardly. The entire meaning of the sentence, as well as what i wanted to convey is lost because my opponent used my speech "out-of context".

What I indeed meant to say was that Trump's stupid policies will just infuriate ISIS extremists. They will see Trump as a threat, and actually already have. I have covered this all up in R1.

3) Obamacare

OK right off the bat, Pro claims that I have not made many "statistical arguments". This is false. I have included many, many statistics of how effective Obamacare is and only couldn't include more because of the character limit.

I never even said once, that repealing needs to be discouraged, granted if they make sense. Obamacare has intensively helped the American population. The statistics have been posted beforehand.

Pro's argument is basically baseless. His only citation is a link to a page, to which most people disagree to (Check the comments).

4) Global Warming

OK, This one kind of caught me off-guard because my opponent honestly believes that Global Warming is fake and "Global Warming is also though to be a liberal scare-tactic to stop government pollution".

Now, I could go on for ages arguing to say Global Warming is real. But then, there's a limit.

So. I'll link down a few sites that help to destroy any misconceptions you have with Global Warming.
https://www.youtube.com...
http://globalwarmingisreal.com...
https://www.nwf.org...

Also, my opponent thinks that it's OK for the US to be "only" second as the biggest polluter. I don't know how that is okay in any way.
--
Moving, on anyway. Donald Trump is known to often tell inaccurate things at conventions about various things.
http://www.vox.com...

Lastly, let's talk about Trumps foreign Policy.

Donald Trump has made many surprising self-contradictions which make it hard to believe he;s running for POTUS,

1)Trump claimed that ISIS is now making millions of dollars off Libyan oil sales. "And now ISIS is making millions and millions of dollars a week selling Libya oil," Trump said. "And you know what? We don't blockade, we don't bomb, we don't do anything about it. It's almost as if our country doesn't even know what's happening, which could be a fact and could be true."

He has made this false statement before, also in the context of blaming Clinton for destroying Libya. The fact is that ISIS does fund itself through the sale of oil, but not in Libya. The Washington Post did an entire piece on the inaccuracy of that and a similar statement he previously made, concluding ultimately that ISIS has not claimed any oil at all in Libya.

http://bit.ly...

2)Let's call this one a head-scratching contradiction. One of Trump"s main foreign policy talking points has been about NATO, the 28-member alliance founded in 1949. Today, he threatened that during a Trump presidency the United States might disband NATO if other countries didn't start spending more on national defense.
"Only 4 of 28 other member countries besides America, are spending the minimum required 2 percent of GDP on defense," Trump said (the number is actually five).Yet just moments later, he talked about the importance of sticking with allies, this time in reference to Israel.
http://sputniknews.com...

3) And there are MANY MORE.
http://politi.co...

-----------------

Thanks and Best of Luck! :)
Debate Round No. 2
WKOJ

Pro

Thank you con for your arguments, they were very well said.

I. Immigration

I have to say that the website you are using is talking about legal immigrants who work like any other Americans. Trump talks about illegal immigrants who steal American jobs and leech off American welfare and public systems.

Con didn't say last time that he was talking about Trump when talking about Mexicans. Trump was using a hyperbole to the illegal immigrants because illegal immigrants have been known to cause a ruckus. The wall is for stopping them for a safe and economic purpose.

I never countered your feasibility because it seemed correct. I only countered that the cost would come back because the immigrants that currently leech off the U.S. wouldn't do so anymore.

II. Ban on Muslims

Con thinks that "until" means permanent which it does not. Until means for a time that stops eventually and will therefore move on. As for changing his mind, Trump hasn't changed his policies towards Muslims.

Con thinks I mentioned ISIS in my statement for radical Islam but ISIS isn't the only ones that show signs of fundamentalism. I made examples of Sharia Law which is in no way secular from actual recognized states and the "Islamic Republic of Iran". You did not make rebuttals towards those arguments.

Sorry if you think I was cowardly, I didn't mean it in the way you are implying it. I was taking the important part that you admitted Muslims will conduct more attacks, which means you agree they are responsible for conducting less before.

Trump is already seen as a threat by Islamic nations and since we won't bomb the actual governments of these countries, we should barricade ourselves from Muslim immigrants.

III. Obamacare

I see you made a fallacy to my argument regarding Obamacare. The source is still a source and if the liberals in the comments disagree, boo-hoo. The source still shows statistics and evidence which is a rebuttal to your claims.

IV. Global Warning

For global warning, if the U.S. slows down their production for the environment while China doesnt do anything, then what is the point? We don't have the capability to slow down without seriously damaging our economy while the Earth still "suffers from GW".

V. Foreign Policy

Trump may have made some contradictions with Libya but Libya is still under siege from ISIS recruits attacking and merging into the civil war bringing back the Muslim brotherhood. The oil is just another hyperbole.

Trump said that about NATO because they were outsourcing their finances for their backup plans in case of a Russian invasion. If they don't contribute for their own well being, the U.S. shouldn't either. Israel has made many promising statements of military buildup and spend more than 2% on their G.D.P.

The many more you reference are still only hyperboles and are misguided, at worst.

Good luck and thanks for your arguments!
ZeldaMafia

Con

I thank Pro for making really strong points!

Moving on,

1. Immigration

If you think my other website was irrelevant, here are more other's which say that Illegal Immigrants actually benefit the US Economy. http://thehill.com...

"Some people claim that illegal immigrants represent an assault on our sovereignty. If this is true, then it might be the first time in world history that a country has employed its invaders. When illegal immigrants cross the border, there"s a citizen waiting to hire them and benefit in some manner from their labor. The sooner our country realizes that immigration reform should be based upon the views of economists and nonpartisan academic researchers, rather than think tanks and radio show hosts, then Congress will finally be able to help solve this national dilemma." This is particular important extract from this site.

Danny Vinik, staff writer at The New Republic, wrote in his July 8, 2014 article "How Much Would It Cost to Deport All Undocumented Immigrants?," available at www.newrepublic.com:
"Many undocumented immigrants pay taxes, use government services and collect benefits. Most importantly, undocumented immigrants contribute to the economy. Labor economists agree that there are net gains to having a larger labor supply. Some groups benefit more than others do - and some may even be hurt by the millions of undocumented immigrants. In 2012, researchers at the Cato Institute estimated that a mass deportations policy would reduce economic growth by around $250 billion per year. Those costs would not be evenly distributed: Those at the very bottom of the income distribution, particularly those without a high school diploma, may even earn higher wages in the absence of undocumented immigrants. But in total, undocumented immigrants benefit the economy."

I have already proven, by stating facts and citing sources that immigrants, illegal or not, contribute very large sums of money in taxes. They as I have already shown, are more likely to open businesses than Americans themselves.
I believe with the newly mentioned sites and previous arguments, make it certain that immigrants benefit the country.

2.Muslims

In the Last round, I have given multiple instances where Trump contradicts himself. He is known to say one thing and then immediately say the exact opposite. This is what I believe, he'll make of the ban on mudlimd situation. He says it's temporary now, but later he will not.

I didn't want to hurt you when I said you are cowardly, it's just that I was kinda surprised when you used my speech out of context. Yes I do agree there are some Muslims who conduct terrorist attacks. I, in no way support these but would like to state that, just because 1 Muslim person or dozens of them conducted a terror crime IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS. I mean if you see a report on a Black man conducting a robbery, it does not mean all black people are thieves. What I really mean, is why are you judging an entire group of people based on a few attacks? That is literally the definition of discrimination.

Again, the last paragraph lacks in the fact that all Muslims are not terrorists. I mean after the terror attack in Nice, France many Muslim men themselves conducted a memorial for the innocent lives that were lost. The man who conducted the massacre himself admitted that he was not linked with any terrorist organisation. He did it solely because he was depressed.
http://ind.pn...

What i believe, rather than blaming Muslims for causing terror attacks, Trump should focus on making it harder to attain weaponry such as guns. This would benefit not only the innocent population, but them also from committing such crimes.

3. Obamacare

I firstly, would like to say I did not mean to be disrespectful toward's Pro's sources. If you actually read the article, it comes out to be extremely disrespectful towards President Obama and Obamacare as a whole. The statistics are wrong, actually.
The writer even goes up to the point of insulting the people who were FOR Obamacare.

The writer says that Obamacare is "a complete waste of money". I don't honestly know how to respond to that. The point is, its really easy to comment and undermine the usefulness of something. Also, let's not forget that this is a survey, since we don't know which group of people had taken it, its hard to judge.

The real statistics are : In the summer of 2013, there were 42 million uninsured Americans. By February of 2015, that number had fallen to 25.8 million. That is, nearly 17 million more Americans have health care than before Obamacare.
The country"s uninsured rate was 17.1% in 2013, and it declined dramatically to 11.9% during the first quarter of 2015.
(Cited before)

4. Global Warming

My opponent just states that since China is number one in pollution, so unless and until it makes a move, the US shouldn't budge. Oh well, coincidentally China has made good amounts of progress.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

So, I believe it's the US's turn now, as per my opponent. Even though that happens, you can't deny that the population of China is more than 4 times that of the US. So, by logic, the pollution per person is way higher for US Citizens. This, apart from the fact that Beijing, Shanghai are way more densely populated.
But, then again Trump believes that GW is fake. So, I don't think that there will be developments.

5. Foreign Policy

Pro has taken the concept of "hyperboles" really seriously, I believe.
Let me first define what "a hyperbole" is just to get things cleared up. They are "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally". That being said, let me say that Trump has said all these "self-contradictions" at really important events and conventions, many of them being GOP debates.

So, I believe these are not hyperboles, but statements that he sincerely believes. Otherwise, it would be really careless for a POTUS candidate to "joke" at a convention.

Anyway, these hyperboles that my opponent is referring to are not cited nor sourced. So, I believe these are only assumptions not fact.

In conclusion, Trump as I have mentioned often contradicts himself while making statements. His policies may look effective in the short term, but in the long run this will bring no result and may harm the country. It also seems Trump does not often care about what he says. He is known to openly insult women, Mexicans and Blacks. These, I believe are somethings you would not look for, in a leader.

----
To sum it all up, it was a really great debate with Pro and I would like to thank him immensely for providing such hard arguments to counter.

Ending in a happy tune, nevertheless!

Thanks and Best of Luck for you future debates! xD
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by ZeldaMafia 6 months ago
ZeldaMafia
I just want to say that it was a pleasure to debate with you, WKOJ. Apart from putting up really strong points, I really liked that fact that you were quick at making arguments.
No votes have been placed for this debate.