The Instigator
KingDebater369
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
ArcTImes
Con (against)
Winning
20 Points

Dota 2 (Pro) vs League of Legends (Con)

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
ArcTImes
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/10/2014 Category: Games
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,689 times Debate No: 60258
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
Votes (4)

 

KingDebater369

Pro

Preface:
Pretty big debate between two awesome MOBA's. Accept the challenge if you're serious. I'm pretty excited for this one, and i'm sure there will be a lot of fanboys on this topic for both sides.

Format:
Round 1 Pro: Explains Rules
Round 1 Con: Acceptance

Round 2 Pro: Opening Arguments
Round 2 Con: Opening Arguments

Round 3 Pro: Rebuttals
Round 3 Con: Rebuttals

Round 4: Rebuttals and Conclusions
Round 4 Con; Rebuttals and Conclusions (can't address anything Pro says in Round 4. Only what Pro says in Round 3.)

Rules:
No trolling
No forfeiting a round
All sources must be cited
Format I have stated must be followed
Faliure to follow any of the rules stated above will result in a loss
==================================================
Hope to have a great debate!
ArcTImes

Con

I accept.

I must clarify that the resolution is, as stated in the comments: "Dota 2 is the better MOBA, when compared with League of Legends"
Dota 2: Valve's MOBA.
League of Legends: Riot's MOBA.
better: of superior quiality or excellence. [1]

This is not an argument or rebuttal, just a clarification so they are not against the rules.

1. http://dictionary.reference.com...

Debate Round No. 1
KingDebater369

Pro

KingDebater369 forfeited this round.
ArcTImes

Con

Introduction

Sadly, my opponent forfeited his round. I will let him post arguments in the next round even though his rules state otherwise.
Because of his forfeiture and because I need to provide argments on my own, I'm going to post an old round I used against this same opponent that we were not able to finish because of forfeiture.

I want to clarify that as agreed in the comments, my position in this debate is against the resolution, but not necessarily claiming that "League of legends is better than Dota 2".
So I think the resolution "Dota 2 is better than League of Legends" is false or that the comparison about the quality of both games is meaningless considering the subjective nature of the topic and the criteria usually used.

Because of the rules, I'm going to present arguments. These arguments will favor League of Legends or will show the subjective nature of the comparison.

Arguments for League of Legends:

Balance:

League of Legends and Dota 2 are both team games. This is an important characteristic when analyzing the quality of the games because the best criteria is probably obtained around this.
And it's also important when talking about balance because both games are balanced differently.
In general, League of Legends is balanced around composition and Dota 2 is balanced around characters.

Now, I'm not talking about nerfs. Nerfs are usually done when one character is too strong compared to the rest. What I mean is that the way League of Legends is balanced favor compositions instead of single characters. In Dota, every hero is very powerful and can be countered. This usually creates shifts on strategy, but it's because of the heroes.

If your team gets heavily countered in LoL, it won't matter if your compositions does its job well.

An interesting example of this is the game TPA vs SGS where they ran a 4 supports 1 carry comp [1], which may be common in Dota, but not in League, at least very few cases in tournament play.



Now, you can see that every lane got countered, they started losing very hard, but ended winning the game just because of the composition. Pro could argue that the reason they were able to win is because of the forgiving nature of LoL, caused by the lack of punishment when you or your team mates die. But this is false. League of Legends is more "snowbally" than Dota 2 (and it's not like this is a good thing).
This has been proved by an study made by the site TeamLiquid.[2] Note that the snowballing has been reduced in recent patches, but punishment for death should not be implemented in LoL because the snowballing would be to dangerous for the balancing.

Gameplay:

This is another point related to team play. Gameplay is different in both games related to how characters work and how strong they are.
Now, "how strong they are" is not about how strong they are compared to the characters of the same game. "If all heroes are op, then no one is op" is true, but this is not an argument of imbalance, this is an argument of comparison between games. If we compare characters from different games, the average Dota 2 hero is stronger than the average League of Legends champion. And this difference rules the difference of gameplay of both games.

In league, each character is very limited compared with the great increase of power you get with team work.
This shows 2 types of skills. Individual skills and team skills, even social skills can be beneficial.

Now, this should be analyzed from the team point of view. This is not about solo queue, this is about a team that can be organized and know each other. This where the real team game shows up.

In this case, it doesn't matter how good you are, you can't win alone.
In Dota, you have more presence as an individual. Sometimes it would be even better if the feeder was not in the game because the punishment that the game has and the scaling, which is also different than league, makes it easier for one character to fight against several if fed, if strong enough, and with few counterplay in the field.

Features related to gameplay:

-Bushes

Also called brushes (I don't know why yet). This creates gameplay, specially in top and bot lane and also creates different scenarios based on the position of the teams and team mates for teamfights, ganks, etc.

-Buffs

This are similar to runes of Dota, but they are not random.

-Runes and Masteries

This diversify strategies because different team comps can be possible depending on these, because different champions can use different roles that would not be possible with LoL items.

Argument against Dota 2:

Bug vs Feature:

I was going to use the title "Bugs", but in Dota 2, these characteristics are features. These are intentional copies of the bugs of Dota because they liked how these work.

Now, characteristics are not bad because they are bugs. A bug is a defect in the design, something that you didn't want, but happened. But things can go very well.

A bug that could be considered a good characteristic is that one that creates gameplay. It is the one that is optional, because it adds routes of decisions, in other words, they don't limit your thinking to only one decision because it's necessary.

One example is the stacking of Mutalisk on Starcraft:Broodwar. This is a really strong trick that can be done thanks to a bug where all the flying mutalisk stack so they can attack to the near target together because they had the same "magic box".
The point was that it was not necessary, sometimes it was better not to do it. It was strong, but it also had its really strong disadvantages.

But in Dota 2, there are "features" that were bugs that didn't create gameplay, and don't create gameplay now:

-Denying

This is one of the characteristics of Dota 2 that Dota 2 fans usually use as arguments against LoL because Riot didn't implemented it in their game. It is supposed to create gameplay giving you something to do in lane phase until the kills, fights and ganks start. Or giving you a tool for lane control.
But this is false. If you are in a solo lane, denying more or denying "better" is beneficial and it's better that you do. Better deniers get better results. It is a skill players have to learn and master.
Sadly, there are no disadvantages to denying. Of course, if you can't deny, that's bad for you. But if you don't get punished because you deny, in a different way that you would get punished for farming, then it's not creating gameplay, it's limiting it.

It is possible for lane control without denying. It is difficult, but is possible, and you can see many scenarios where it's important to do it in LoL

The only case it makes a different is in the trio lanes (which are not possible in LoL), but that doesn't change the fact that it's limiting the rest of scenarios.

-Creep stacking

This is another bug in the original DotA caused by a timer limited by the map editor of warcraft 3.
This suffer the same problems that denying suffer. At some points and with some heroes you have to do it, you need to do it.

Important notes:

At the end, the balance and the gameplay can be also subjective. And the discussion seems less relevant at the highest level of play, where difficulty and teamwork seems similar.
The features that limit gameplay creates the styles of each game(because sure, that also happen in LoL).
This is the only thing that differentiate the games.

So my last argument is that both games are great and should be played by those who enjoy them.

Thanks for the debate. Vote for CON.

Sources:

1.
TPA Unconventional 4 SPs Comp (video)
2.
http://www.teamliquid.net...
Debate Round No. 2
KingDebater369

Pro

KingDebater369 forfeited this round.
ArcTImes

Con

Extend my arguments.
Debate Round No. 3
KingDebater369

Pro

KingDebater369 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by ArcTImes 3 years ago
ArcTImes
What I call "denying" in the debate is the bug from the original DotA Allstars.
Sure, you can deny your opponent's in some situation to an extent, but the point is that it doesn't have the limits and importance of Dota's version, which is not exactly a good thing.
Posted by Ja50n 3 years ago
Ja50n
It actually is possible to deny in LoL through
a) zoning the opponent so as not to cs accurately
b) shoving your lane quickly to the turrent when their MIA to deny cs to your opponent.
Posted by ArcTImes 3 years ago
ArcTImes
-_- Come on dude.
Posted by ArcTImes 3 years ago
ArcTImes
lol, I just realized I came to this debate through the dashboard. I have you in my friend list.
Posted by KingDebater369 3 years ago
KingDebater369
Ok, that's fine. Yeah I changed my avatar =)
Posted by ArcTImes 3 years ago
ArcTImes
Oh, was it you?
I don't remember you with the changed icon/avatar. But yeah, I remember the username now.
It's fine, I can wait. If no one accepts, I'll give it a try.
Posted by KingDebater369 3 years ago
KingDebater369
or I guess the resolution could be: Dota 2 is the better MOBA, when compared with League of Legends
Posted by KingDebater369 3 years ago
KingDebater369
oh my mistake. I guess it should be: Dota 2 is better than League of Legends. Ha ha - I've already debated with you Arctimes. We could go again if you want to, since we didn't properly finish the debate earlier, but I would like to see if there is another opponent to challenge me =)
Posted by ArcTImes 3 years ago
ArcTImes
I don't get it. What's the resolution?
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
KingDebater369ArcTImesTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: FF
Vote Placed by LDPOFODebATeR0328 3 years ago
LDPOFODebATeR0328
KingDebater369ArcTImesTied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 3 years ago
9spaceking
KingDebater369ArcTImesTied
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Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by dynamicduodebaters 3 years ago
dynamicduodebaters
KingDebater369ArcTImesTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: FF