Dota 2 is Better than League of Legends - Debate II
Debate Rounds (4)
I want to challenge you in the same topic again, this time I will prove that Dota 2 is the superior game.
I will be arguing in favor of Dota 2.
Round 1 is acceptance, Round 2 is opening statements, 3 is rebuttals, and the conclusion is round 4.
If you accept, I wish good luck to you.
(Reusing from another debate)
Before you assume something, opponent, keep in mind I think both games are great games. I just find one better than another.
First matters off, let me discuss the formation of each game.
League of Legends was designed by the original mod for the Warcraft III engine Defense of the Ancients (known as DotA to most). The development of League began when Riot Games partnered with Steve "Guinsoo" Feak (Guinsoo's Rageblade, anyone?), who had previously worked on the original map for DotA. The idea was that the game would be standalone as opposed to another sequel using the same engine. Upon which, League was born.
Dota 2 is the sequel to the mod for the Warcraft III engine, Defense of the Ancients (known to most as DotA.) Its map was based off of the "Aeon of Strife" map for StarCraft. To make the map, the team used the map editor of Warcraft III's prequel: Warcraft II. The first version of this game was released in 2003, and has become extremely popular since, sparking the sequel which was made by Valve.
Now let me head straight in to my argument:
I. Learning Curve
Many new players to Dota 2, or some used to LoL (I know I was) didn't understand the game at first. The controls were very confusing, especially for the items. And the idea of a TP scroll seemed ridiculous to me. Why didn't they just have a Recall button? I quit midway through my first game and didn't play it again until three to four months later. When I logged it, it was an entirely new patch. At the beginning, it asked me if I had played a MOBA before. I said yes. It then gave me a list of MOBAs to choose from, and when I clicked "League of Legends", I found out that, in game, it had changed the settings for me to be almost identical to LoL! They made it feel at least a bit more comfortable for me to play, even though I didn't truly understand what was going on.
I shall not deny the learning curve is a LOT steeper in Dota 2 than in LoL. But I find that to be better in some cases. Imagine, opponent, you were faced with two tasks. One to learn a relatively simple task, and one to learn a complex one. Most would choose the easy one, because it's, well, easy. However, a few people would choose the difficult one. Note that I am NOT saying LoL is simple, just simpler. And that makes it good in its own regard; it's simple, fun, and easy to understand. However, taking the time to learn and perfect something much harder is more rewarding, because you end up feeling like you accomplished something that was very difficult, and you feel proud of yourself. The thrill of winning a tough match, or stopping that Faceless Void from getting fed (which is remarkably hard) is a lot more rewarding, it seems, than getting a kill in LoL, because it's EASIER for those kills to happen. You sometimes feel empty after killing an easy opponent, because they didn't provide a thrill, a rush, a sense of excitement and danger. This is why people keep coming back to Dota 2, and so do I.
Note: graphics do NOT define if a game is good or not. But graphics help to enhance the gaming experience you're in. After playing a few games of Dota, I simply could NOT switch back to LoL. The graphics seemed HORRENDOUS to me after what I've been used to. While they seemed sort of anime-like to me at first, it just lost its appeal after playing another game. As I said before, while graphics do not define if a game is good or not, I just could not play the game. The graphics aim to be good, but they aren't good, at least, compared to Dota's, and that is a major issue for me. The issue is with this, games such as Minecraft/Robocraft INTENTIONALLY have bad graphics. When a game is played as much as LoL, you think they could improve their graphics. And while they are current;y working to do so, they have essentially used the same map with the same graphics (Summoner's Rift) for about five years, without any major changes.
Dota 2 has a more strategy-focused gameplay as opposed to LoL. Wile it is undeniable both games have great amounts of strategy implemented in them, Dota 2 opens up more possibilities to strategy, such as "creep stacking" and "denying" creeps and towers.
In League, if you and your lane opponent farm passively, with no assistance from a jungler, then you both gain a huge gold advantage over the others, with virtually no one stopping you. With the chance to deny, you can stop your opponent from getting minions while still playing passively, opening up the possibility of your opponent not getting levels and XP and putting you ahead of them. Denying towers is also a huge deal. When you deny a tower, members of the opposite team only gain 100 gold each. When they destroy a tower, people end up getting 200-300 gold each, as well as the appropriate XP if you're near the tower. When you deny a tower, you end up denying the enemy 500-1000 gold. That is a HUGE difference!
Creep stacking also allows for more strategic jungling. You aggro a creep and drag it out of its home before a minute hits. After it hits, a new pair of creeps spawn, because the game has detected no creeps are in the area.
Dota 2 is undeniably LESS popular than its counterpart, League of Legends. Despite this, I still believe Dota 2 is the better game. Why? Because popularity DOESN'T DEFINE IF A GAME IS GOOD OR NOT.
So many people think LoL is the better game simply because it has a larger playerbase than Dota. There are many cases I can think of that the less popular game is better than a more popular one. For instance, the example I can think of is in the FPS Category: COD, Battlefield, and TF2.
Whilst all related in one way, each has completely different gameplay and playerbases, the largest being COD, second being Battlefield, and third being TF2. But I play TF2 more than any of those other games. Why? Because it's simply more fun. The people playing the game are a lot more friendly than the large abundance of 10-year olds who play COD, and the total tryhards who play BF.
Community is also an issue for me. With League, the community is less than hospitable to newcomers. The best example I can find of this is the video "Why I Love League of Legends But Hate Playing it". (Link is in sources)
The person in the video was talking about how they were all noobs, and it was a fun experience (especially building IE on Annie), even though they didn't know what they were doing. When it got to the later stages, however, they felt like they HAD to do certain things or else everyone would get mad at them. And this is why he loves LoL, but hates playing it, and the same goes for me.
In Dota, the game is just fun throughout. Whilst difficult at first, the game's experience grows and expands as does your knowledge of the game, and you get to have more fun with it. People don't yell at you for going Dark Seer jungle, because you CAN. They don't even get mad at ES jungle, because you CAN do it. If I tried Akali jungle in League (despite her AoE capabilities), people WOULD rage and flame me for my decision, even if I think if it's a perfectly viable choice (And if it works, it ain't stupid).
My conclusion for this segment is this: Dota 2 is superior to LoL in a number of ways, including graphics, community, and overall experience. Both games have their pros and cons, however, I find Dota 2 to be the better of the two games for the reasons above.
Opponent, or anyone, if you read this all the way, I thank you for your time. And opponent, I wish you good luck in the next round. Your argument should be interesting as well. Thanks. :)
First I will rebuttal your arguments.
A you said in the previous arguments, the learning curve in DOTA 2 is much harder then in League of legends. Both games are similar and different in many regards. In League you can recall, in DOTA you have runes in the river. Most hardcore gamers would choose the more difficult game, but like most of the population, we want something that we could easily understand. We want to play something that doesn't require that much thought. People want to play with friends and have a fun time. The part of the thrill, you said is entitle to one personal opinion. Some people get more thrill out of League then DOTA and some get more thrill in DOTA then League.
The appeal of the Graphic is your opinion. So people like the anime like character in League of Legends. DOTA should have better Graphic then League because it is a newer game. Riot Games is currently working hard to update champions Visual, reworking there kits, and updating there maps. As you said before graphics don't make a game, but casual people have bad PC that can't run high graphic game and league is a game that doesn't require a good PC to play making everyone able to play it.
While DOTA does have more strategies, League is not completely mechanical skill. In league there are buffs which gives you boost. Dragon which give you XP and gold. Baron which gives you a buff. Jungle timers which tell you when the monster in the jungle spawn. Rotation to get objectives. Ward placements,Freezing creeps and late game and early game champs. I wouldn't completely say that League has no strategies, both games have there strategies, it just ones opinion on which is better.
While popularity doesn't define a game good or not. It does prove one thing that more people play the game. It doesn't matter how good your game is if nobody plays it. The queue times in DOTA is longer then in Leagues. You can tell me that League community is worse, but there is a tool for that the mute tool. You can still communicate with the smarts pings. When new player join League they have friend too teach them and a new player forum (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...). In DOTA there are some people that flame at you as bad as the people on League. There are both bad and good players in League and DOTA. As for the community the large the community the more talking there are on forums and website, to show what the found, bugs, suggestion and more. DOTA's community is smaller so there well be less people that talk about these stuff.(https://www.reddit.com...) (https://www.reddit.com...)
As for the FPS community you made comparison to makes you look biased.
Secondly I will now introduce my argument.
I believe that LoL is a better game for three reason:
1.More people:The more people there are the more player there are to play with, to discuss issues and to bring interest into the game.
2.E-sport: You may argue that the TI4 final is a 5 million grand prize and a 10 million prize pool, but there is the LCS which gives player money regardless if they win or not. League streams get more views then DOTA streams which then they earn more money. The LoL pro players connect with the Community more (AMA,twitter,Reddit, sub games, sub wars and interviews). I think that LoL e-sports in better for the game as even if you suck at the game you can admire the players, understand the games from the excellent caster at Riot games.
3. Motivation to play
In to DOTA you get all the Hero once you start, but in League you have to buy champions. This is better for new player to play a limited amount of champion and buy the cheap one which are easier too use. You log in to try a new champ in the champion rotation. You save up IP to buy champion, rune and LV up too play ranks games. There are also end of season rewards which include wards and banners and a summoner icon. The lore in League is amazing to read, you can choose to pay RP to buy skins for the champ you like or buy the champion you want. You also have the first win of the day ip boost which encourages player to play a game daily.
In conclusion I think league is better to play then DOTA for three reason Motivation, E-sports, More people.
Best wish in your next argument and have a nice day! :)
I. Rebut to Learning Curve
Each game has their own different style of gameplay, which some prefer. However, it gets continually tiring to play an easy game over and over again.
You don't feel rewarded after playing a game where the opponents were feeding you the entire time on purpose. You feel empty inside.
However, both games have their own playstyle toward their specific types of people, and I respect that opinion. However, that doesn't deny my point that Dota is, indeed, the better game.
If you're playing a game for the strategy implementation Dota is better. For casual every once in a while gameplay with friends, LoL is better. However, the argument that some people prefer a specific level of difficulty is invalid, as it isn't relevant to prove which game is better.
I'm stating this for reasons most already know: The LoL map is incredibly outdated. It's the same map since the beginning, with little to no modifications to improve it. They're currently working on a mew nap, true, and while the graphics of the old map appeal to some people, they're just bad graphics in comparison to that of Dota's. And League kept the same map with no changes in graphics for 4-5 YEARS. It should have noticed its map was outdated and updated it accordingly sooner, however, they decided not to until just recently. If they did so, I guarantee you League would have a lot more people coming toward it.
You mentioned all of the strategies League withholds but didn't respond to my previous arguments about strategy. So I will just respond to your idea of strategy.
In League, you are more likely to get a kill, get farm, or get XP than in Dota, because in League the amount of damage the characters do versus the health of the minions is much higher than the damage the heroes in Dota 2 do versus the health of their minions. While indeed, both games have their strategies, it seems clear that one has more strategy than another, because Dota 2 also has the presence of creep stacking and denying, which opens up a new range of possibilities of gameplay that League doesn't have.
My opponent argues that even if the LoL communities are worse, there is a mute button and smart pings that let you communicate with teammates. He also states that it doesn't matter how good a game is, if nobody plays it. I'll come back to this argument later.
With his argument of muting people and both players having bad communities, he doesn't directly answer my argument of how League has a worse community, he just states both have bad communities, and a small explanation on how to help you with dealing with the people in the LoL community.
Some holes here:
The solution is only an indirect solution. It helps for one game but won't help you with the rest of your experiences with bad players.
Muting someone simply doesn't make the community better, it just makes it so that you can't type to them and they can't type to you.
Overall, my opponent doesn't address the issue of the LoL community being worse than that of the Dota 2 community.
I. More People
My opponent states that most of the population prefers something more simplistic and not requiring much thought, which is why many play LoL. As well, he also states that it doesn't matter how good a game is, if nobody plays it. This argument has some holes in it.
1. Popularity doesn't determine if a game is good or not.
2. We are talking about the quality of said games, not the amount of people who play the said game.
Therefore, your entire argument about popularity of a game is invalid.
"In the LCS, players get money regardless of whether they win or not."
So where's the motivation? In the first internationals, the first place team got 1 million dollars. Second only got 250K, while third got 150K.
Those amounts of money are huge differences. You lose a whole 750K if you get second place in the tournament. That motivates the people in competitive Dota to strive harder and actually WORK toward getting good, and not just have money fed to them in a spoon. It requires hard work and extreme talent to be a professional Dota 2 player, and the E-sports provides more motivation to do well than that of League does.
But I do like the LoL E-sports scene simply because more people pay attention to it and stakes are a bit high sometimes. It is fun to watch. Though again, as stated before, popularity isn't everything, and I find watching Dota to be more exciting and strategy based. As well, competitive Dota requires more teamwork for pushing objectives and killing fed enemies.
This a good argument, actually...for those who don't use any money on the game whatsoever. Sadly, many people buy RP to get the champions they want. Therefore, in essence, if you have enough money, you can buy all of the characters without any effort. This supports a pay to win strategy.
You don't need to be good at the game if you use this strategy: you just need to have a lot of money. The style of microtransactions being enabled to buy champions is a ridiculous system. In Dota, you don't need to waste money buying heroes. But instead, you need to be good at the heroes, and I think this system requires more skill and effort to try and be good at the heroes that are all available to you.
A game can be simple can can be fun at the same time. The hard at the same time but not be the better game. It might feel rewarding to you to play league by other people can be rewarded playing league. " Some people prefer a specific level of difficulty is invalid, as it isn't relevant to prove which game is better" Why are you arguing about learning curve if you say that the level of difficulty doesn't matter. You also say that the opponents feed you the entire time on league, not DOTA. Both games has there play style but more people prefer the simple style of League, and just having fun killing stuff. As where in DOTA you can have fun but it harder too understand making it less enjoyable to people. This is why I believe that League is a good game.
The Riot team has been busy creating maps for different game modes. It takes time to create a map and too roll out the glitch in the map, the map it self is find to play in.Even if the League map where outdated it attracts people more people then DOTA. As you said in the second argument graphic don't matter so this shouldn't be an argument. DOTA might have better graphic but if people don't like the game then it doesn't matter.
3.The core game play in League and DOTA is to push up and destroy the Nexus/Ancient. This has opened up to the meta game where people decide whats the best strategies in League/DOTA. People in both game that are highly skilled can deny creeps and harass the opponent. But in lower ELO people don't care about the strategies they want to have fun. While DOTA does have it item actives and denying towers, league has summoners spells which are tools for you to benefits yourselfs. While both game are similar they have a lot different(champion kits, items, spells, mysteries). Both games are played differently and a suited to what the community decides what best.
There are way to make the community better. Riot made if you get chat restricted you don't get end season rewards. Reporting people, and muting them are way to solve the problem. Playing with friend are the best solution because in both community there are people that will be toxic no matter what. League is a game with a high player base so there will be natural more toxic people then in DOTA. There are some people that get pleasure of trolling other players, but with a game with such high player base it is hard to not meet bad people. The holes in your rebuttal is that muting is a indirect solution is that if you mute someone they can never annoy you and you can do this with all bad players. Secondly is the bad player are offending you why will you chose to talk to them. My opponent critic about the League community yet he never address that there are toxic player in DOTA.
Popularity: "more simplistic and not requiring much thought" and "quality of said games, not the amount of people who play the said game." Firstly you should argue about popularity is we are talking about quality. And a game can be high quality even if it is simply. If you think that DOTA is a better game but yet League has more player and more people think league is better and more people play it, it reflects that more people think league is a better game.
E-sports: Most pro player are motivated by getting into LCS and then going to Worlds for the Summoner cup. And the League of legends worlds season 4 had the exact stats as your said number. Therefore your arguments is invalid. "It requires hard work and extreme talent to be a professional DOTA player" I believe that League pro and DOTA pro work equal hard. In league you have to be top 5 or you going to regulation(which is when a challenger team come to try to your take your spot in the lcs). In Korea many player wake up early and scrim and play all day this is something not everyone can do. "competitive Dota requires more teamwork for pushing objectives and killing fed enemies." I believe that this statement is biased. In any Pro team game there are teamwork. In league they call ganks, team fight, wards, roams, MIA, to go in or back off and what to do. It's not as simple as "pushing objectives and killing fed enemies" as in pro games people rarely run into the enemy to feed.
Motivation:"if you have enough money, you can buy all of the characters without any effort. This supports a pay to win strategy." Yes if you do have money you can buy more champs, but this is not pay to win. Most of the champs in League have counter in champion and item. Buying all the champions does not let you instantly be good you need to practice and if are good with a champion then you should be able to beat any champion.
Best wish to you in your next arguments
Thank you con for rebuttals. I shall now respond.
I. Learning Curve
I bring up learning curve to state that if a player actually takes the time to learn a harder game, he will find it more rewarding. The level of difficulty itself, however, is irrelevant in general, but in this case...
*The player in question has an equal level of understanding of both games.*
...that makes the argument completely relevant.
If a player understands LoL as much as he understands Dota, he will find Dota the better game because it is more challenging game and you get rewarded more for completing a task than in League.
Let's use a scenario as an example to prove my point:
A three year old presses a key on a piano. He is happy that he was able to accomplish such a task.
Five year old him is happy after learning his first easy song on the piano.
20 year old him is happy after mastering multitudes of Beehtoven's old masterpieces.
The 20 year old, who had mastered Beehtoven's pieces, is he going to find the same enjoyment pressing a key as he did when he was 3?
99% of the time, no.
My point is this: learning curve is a lot steeper in Dota than in LoL. But if a player took time to have an equal understanding and measurement of experience in both games, then most of the time he will find Dota more enjoyable, because it is more challenging and rewarding for him.
And this is why I never get bored watching/playing Dota, because it provides a unique challenge to the player that LoL simply can't.
My opponent argues here that Riot is currently in development for different maps as well as SR. While true, the main map that League should have their focus on SR, as it's the most played one.
I resume back to my old arguments when I say this: A game around as long as League should have had at least SOME sort of VU to SR before the current update. While most of the character models are fine, and are being improved, I feel Riot has done very little to improve the visual status of their map. Maybe if they had improved it sooner, along with the engine, then I would have felt a lot better playing the game. However, Riot has not done that with its map. The company has not given the map a VU at all since the map was introduced in 2009. Even in S4, when they could've had a new map presented (it would've been the perfect time, too), they decided not to and kept the map in its old state.
My opponent merely states that both games have strategies that are similar. He, again, didn't respond to my argument about strategy, he just stated both games have their own. He didn't directly address the strategies present in League and why they could be better than Dota's.
My opponent also mentions the presence of summoner spells. Summoner spells are, I feel, overused and over-relied upon. Flash and Ignite are the plague; I've hardly seen anyone without it (except if they're a support/jungler). The existence of Summoner Spells allows the player in question to use another item to help them in their quest to escape or kill, and I feel that it puts a reliance on these summoner spells instead of their own skill to help them get what they want. Dota also has similar mechanics, but the player actually has to EARN them before they can use them, such as a Blink Dagger. The reliance of summoner spells, I feel, is causing people to put too much reliance on them and not use their own skill to take out an enemy and just flash and perform a few basic attacks, then ignite.
Opponent tries to make my argument seemingly have holes in it, when I believe it does not.
Even if you mute every bad person you come across, you are NOT helping out the community as a whole.
My opponent still states that there are trolls that get pleasure out of messing with other players. There also purposeful feeders that feed just because they didn't get the champion they want. And the champion select screen is horrendous.
It's a war, a constant battle, of everyone wanting either top or mid, hardly any supports, forcing people to pick support, and those people get mad and feed the enemy team on purpose.
THIS is the type of people I deal with in almost every game of League, whether it be on my team or the opponents'. And I always find it very annoying to play with these people.
My opponent states, "If you think that DOTA is a better game but yet League has more player and more people think league is better and more people play it, it reflects that more people think league is a better game."
It doesn't, opponent. It simply shows that more people play the game. Nothing else. The rest of your arguments here mean nothing.
Popularity DOES NOT EQUAL QUALITY. Less popular games can be of way better quality than the main games that are the most popular.
" I believe that League pros and DOTA pros work equally hard."
You constantly come back to arguments about how League is favored for its simplicity, and how people like simplicity. However, you cannot state that a simple task takes the same amount of time to learn and prefect as a hard one.
You also state common strategies that are present in both games: Ganking, team fights, ward contro, and roaming. However, Dota pro players also have to learn additional mechanics as well as the ones LoL players already know, such as the previous mentioned creep stacking and denying. Therefore, the Dota 2 pros have to learn more, and it takes more time and skill to master than LoL pros. Not to mention the more unique champions such as Invoker.
"Yes, if you do have money you can buy more champs, but this is not pay to win. Most of the champs in League have counter in champion and item. Buying all the champions does not let you instantly be good you need to practice and if are good with a champion then you should be able to beat any champion."
Con makes a valid point here. But then again, this can also be turned against Con to prove my side of the argument.
Champions in League can have a counter and most likely DO have a counter (except Jax, he's just too broken). Counter picking isn't necessarily about the champion you use, though in some cases the champ means everything (i.e. Rengar VS. Kha). If Riot allows the use of buying characters with REAL MONEY, people will just get mad that they lost to (insert hero here), and instantly buy its counter using RP (or in the rare case, IP). If people constantly lose to a champion, they want that champ's counter more and more and more. And this ends up being a pitfall people fall in, because humans are impatient, we don't want to save, we want stuff NOW. And sadly, when I played League, I fell into this trap too, wasting money on champions that shouldn't even have to COST ANYTHING.
So in League, I guess my whole hate here is that people just want to buy a "good" champ with no knowledge whatsoever of them. And while Riot offers "champion sales" for half RP, these are commonly not the champs/skins you want. So I feel Riot is just sitting there, laughing whilst counting the countless dollars you spent for a game which highly does, indeed, support pay to win.
I feel my opponent constantly comes back to the argument of "both games are similar" and has done very little to prove that Dota 2 is worse (or not better) than LoL, which is what the con is for. He comes back to this point in nearly every argument he makes. I feel that it isn't an adequate argument in this debate, as his SPECIFIC CAUSE is to prove that Dota 2 is not as good as LoL, while mine is to prove, in fact, Dota 2 IS better than LoL. Based off of this reasoning, I want anyone reading to make a fair and honest judgment of the debate, and not show bias toward the game you like, even if it means voting for me just because you like Dota.
Opponent, I thank you for your time and for the debate. Good luck in the voting period.
I have nothing to argue about League or DOTA they are both great games and shouldn't be compare which games are better. We should just enjoy the game and be happy about both game. The only reason I did type a argument was because I'm too lazy watching Hearthstone grand final.
Thank you. For reading a debate that is ultimately just one opinion and I coincide to you because I think you put more effort into this debate
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