The Instigator
ArcTImes
Con (against)
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The Contender
tkubok
Pro (for)
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Dota 2 is better than League of Legends.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/17/2014 Category: Games
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,501 times Debate No: 54930
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
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ArcTImes

Con

This is a challenge for tkubok, who asked me for the debate and added:
"I think Dota2 is superior to LoL :)".
The resolution should be interpreted as better or superior in quality of the videogame.

I'm against the resolution and the BoP is on Pro. I only have to disprove his arguments to win the debate.

Pro is allowed and encouraged to start his arguments in the first round considering the BoP.
The last round should not have new arguments. Only a conclusion or summary.

Good Luck Have Fun.
tkubok

Pro

First off, I would like to thank my opponent for creating this debate.

I shall start off with some smaller arguments, and then move onto the bigger arguments regarding the core concepts of game-play.

1. Graphics

Although a minor problem, League of Legends suffers from worse graphics than that of Dota 2. This is partly because Dota 2 is newer than League of Legends. Although Riot games, the developers of League of Legends, have done some minor updates with regards to graphics, most of the game remains unchanged.

2. Tribunal system

League of Legends has a system where players can vote whether to punish or pardon a player that has been reported.(1)

This would be great if the judges are chosen from a pool of adults and screened beforehand, or you are allowed to make your case and defend yourself. Unfortunately, more often than not, the people who are judging you are 13 year old kids who want to troll, and deliberately make punish people just for fun.

Many people have complained about how unfair and broken the tribunal system, is.

3. Unskilled Player as a reportable offense.

Everyone can have a bad day, where they just can't play well. Anyone can be paired with someone who is better than they are, despite the fact that their skill level is perfectly suited for the group level they are in. And yet, being reported for this, places you in a player group that is less skilled than you, forcing you to waste your time playing with people who are weaker, while potentially being stuck in a situation where your allies are consistently bad, and therefore prevents you from returning to your own group skill level.

4. Character Aesthetics

In Dota 2, you get items that change how your character looks. You can buy these items using real money, but you can also get these items for free, after every game. And best of all, you can trade and swap these items with other players.

In League of Legends, The only way to get a new skin or look, is to buy it with real money. You cannot trade your new look with other people, either.

5. "Pay to win" vs. "Play to win": Runes

Runes are aspects of League of Legends, that add permanent boosts to different aspects of a hero, from Damage, movement speed, Ability Power, etc.(2)

Although runes cannot be bought directly using money, they can be purchased via Influence points, which are gained by playing games. The problem here, is that the IP(Influence point) boosters can be purchased using real money.

When two people have been playing the same amount of time, with the same amount of games, are at the same skill level, and are playing the exact same champions, but one is necessarily, objectively stronger than the other, that is a demonstration of "Pay to win".

6. "Pay to win" vs. "Play to win": Heroes

In Dota 2, all heroes are free, and are unlocked for everyone to use.

In league of legends, only 10 free champions are rotated every week, and all other champions are locked, and must be purchased using real money or Influence points.

This prevents new players from trying out all the different heroes, and more importantly, prevents them from continuing to play the heroes they like without having to either play up to 60 games to purchase them, or use real money.

7. "Pay to win" vs. "Play to win": New Heroes

New heroes are often imbalanced, and tend to be overpowered.

With Dota 2, this is not a problem, because anyone can use them on a first come first serve basis. However, with League of Legends, only those that buy the new hero, can play them, and since the newest heroes are consistently the most expensive, those who buy the new heroes with money, gain a significant advantage.

8. Game Mechanics: Character Viability and Snowballing

Snowballing is a term that refers to how a small push, a small advantage for one team, keeps building up so that the other team cannot win, and cannot stage a comeback.

With regards to Dota 2, each hero fills a specific niche, a specific role. Some heroes are good at pushing the lane early, others are good at team fights. Some are great early game, others are only good after a couple hundred creep kills. Some are very powerful, but are very well countered with specific items and heroes.

This makes it very easy for the losing team in Dota 2 to stage a comeback. No matter how strong your opponents team has become, you will always have your specific niche that your opponent cannot contest. You may lose some options that will lead you to victory, and your enemy may gain some options, but you will never completely be out of options and having to rely on praying that your opponent screws up and makes a mistake.

With League of legends, this is not the case. When one team gets ahead early in the game, the other team has no options left, because whatever they can, or want to do, their opponents team can do better.

With Dota 2, getting ahead of your opponents team, means gaining more options, and making your opponents team lose options. With League of Legends, getting ahead of your opponents team, means that you literally become stronger than your opponents team, forcing them to either get stronger than you, or lose.

This was why, Teamliquid found out that the team that was 10% ahead of the other team in terms of gold by the 12 minute mark, had a 90% chance of winning.(3)

This is one of the main reasons why Dota 2 is superior to League of Legends.

9. Game Mechanics: New heroes and balancing issues

New heroes are always imbalanced, as mentioned above. However, since Dota 2 is based off the original Dota game from World of Warcrafts, most of the new heroes that have been introduced, have already been balanced beforehand.

10. Game Mechanics: Denying

Denying is an important aspect of Dota 2, as it gives people more options on how to control the lane. Even if you are behind, and cannot out out-farm your opponent, you can still do many things within your lane, that prevents your opponent from getting the experience points/gold that they need, such as diverting your creeps away from your lane into a neutral creep camp.

11. Game Mechanics: Penalty for Death

Whenever you die in Dota 2, you lose Gold, as well as time. The amount of gold you lose, is proportionate to the strength and level of your hero.

This means that the weaker you are, the less amount of Gold you lose, and the less risk and penalty is imposed towards you. However, if you are strong, and are saving up for an item, you lose more gold, and therefore start out weaker than you were before, giving your opponent a better chance at winning. Consistently picking on a single hero that is very strong, not only nets you with a lot of gold, but also makes him weaker.

With League of Legends, all you lose is time. This essentially means that stronger heroes don"t get any stronger, but they also don"t get any weaker. You are literally just as strong and re-spawn just as strong as before you died. This contributes to, and makes it harder for the losing team to stage a comeback.

12. Game Mechanics: Terrain advantages

With Dota 2, there are various mechanics in place where someone with sufficient skill can use his wits to avoid, and even with, team fights, even if they are outnumbered.

Dota 2 for example, has a mechanic where vision is limited when below a ramp, and where ranged attacks have a chance to miss, when attacking someone who is above the ramp.

The trees in Dota 2, are also destroyable, blocks your line of sight, and there are small pathways in between the trees themselves. This allows players to "Juke" enemies and stave off certain death, and even allow you to escape and change the tide of the battle.

This increases the options that one has with regards to strategy.

13. Game Mechanics: Teleportation back to base

In Dota 2, teleportation scrolls cost an item slot and some gold. In League of Legends, any and every person can use a built-in teleportation system that transports them back to base. This has an effect both in early and late game-play

Early on in the game, the mechanics where you are forced to spend gold to buy a teleportation scroll in order to return back to base to buy and heal, prevents people from acting recklessly or necessarily sacrificing a lot of mana and health in order to score a kill, and penalizing them when they do, thus preventing people from getting too easily fed early on.

In the late game period, scrolls take up an item slot, and since you can only carry 6 items at any one time, you sacrifice an item slot for the ability to go back to base, allowing the other team to counter-push a lane and apply pressure, or forcing your opponent to sacrifice an item slot to buy a teleportation scroll, thus weakening him in the late game period.

I shall now await my opponents response.


Sources:
1. http://na.leagueoflegends.com...
2. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com...
3. http://www.teamliquid.net...
Debate Round No. 1
ArcTImes

Con

I want to think my opponent for accepting this challenge.
Now I will present my rebuttals.

Rebuttals:

1. Graphics

If Pro wants to argue that Dota 2 needs a more powerful graphics card, this is true.
But what makes the graphics of a game good or better than another game?
And depending on the criteria, why that would be a good reason to use it as an argument for the quality of the game. I don't think more textures and shaders are meaningful to the quality of the game, unless you want to play both games with zoom all the time.

2. Tribunal system

"Unfortunately, more often than not, the people who are judging you are 13 year old kids who want to troll, and deliberately make punish people just for fun."
This is a totally baseless claim.
The tribunal is a democracy. A lot of people vote to punish or pardon the players. The cases of the players that deserve punishment are reviewed by Player support [1].

3. Unskilled Player as a reportable offense.

The Unskilled player serves 2 functions: [2][3]
a. A trash for bad reports and a placebo.
b. Matchmaking research
And even if it was something that affected MMR, there is no elo hell.

4. Character Aesthetics

I think this is irrelevant.
But you can still get league of legends skin without buying them. You can get skins using codes that can be bought, others are gifted in events, streams, and in a lot of videos of youtube.

You can also trade these codes in places like teamliquid. [4]
The codes that were used in one server also work in other servers so gifts and trades of codes is very common.

5. "Pay to win" vs. "Play to win": Runes

This is also false. The runes are divided by tiers. You can always buy tier 1 runes, tier 2 only when you reached level 10 and tier 3 when you reach level 20. [5]
The most cost effective runes are the level 20 and it's the time recommended to buy runes. By the time you reach level 20, you should have enough IP to buy a complete set of runes that can work for a lot of champions.
In lower levels you have less slots so even if you had more IP, it wouldn't matter.

6. "Pay to win" vs. "Play to win": Heroes

You can still try out all the different champions and you don't need 60 games to buy a champion. There are champions as cheap as 450 IP that is like 5 games or 2 wins of the day.
It would be pay to win if the most expensive champions would be necessarily stronger, but that is not true.

7. "Pay to win" vs. "Play to win": New Heroes

There is as much cheap champions than expensive champions in the highest tiers of the game. And being able to pick "overpowered" characters doesn't solve the problem.
The last "flavor of the month" champions had soraka and kayle, both with a cost of 450 IP. Others with 1300 IP. There is no reason to think that the most expensive ones are stronger than the rest.

8. Game Mechanics: Character Viability and Snowballing

About the roles, this will happen in LoL too. They don't look as specialized because of how the games are balanced. Dota 2 heroes are stronger than LoL champions. But that doesn't affect snowballing. This is specially true on champions whose abilities synergize very well.

About the lose of gold as an option for comeback, it's not that true. Opponents will get strong by buying items, not by getting gold. So the result of the comebacks depends mainly if the opponents bought their items with the gold they won.

About the study of teamliquid. It is outdated. It is from 2012 and only takes into account games from the MLG and Dreamhack. You can see in the comment sections that it had some criticism related to statistics and the reliability of the numbers that were picked arbitrarily.

And it is outdated, not only because it is from 2 years ago, but because riot changed the snowballing the last year. [6]
The principal reason 1 team had difficulties to do comebacks (not because of 10% of gold difference) in cases like losing an inhibitor, was because of vision. The team that had the advantage had a vision control that was too strong. That was already changed.

9. Game Mechanics: New heroes and balancing issues

Now Pro claims that "New heroes are always imbalanced" and not most.
I ask Pro to be careful with the words he is using. This is not true. From the last 10 champions, only Thresh, Zac and Yasuo saw competitive play just after being released. Other champions like Lucian that have heavy competitive play in Korea after months of being released were considered "trash" by most of solo queue players at the time of release.
So basically what seems balanced or imbalanced by solo queue players don't matter much and a lot of times is not true. Those advantages didn't exist. They were just illusions of the community.

10. Game Mechanics: Denying

Denying doesn't add options on how to control the lane. It is the best thing you can do to control the lane. Pro then gives "options to do" when you are behind, but we should not consider them optional. Players will deny if they are able to.
Denying is just part of characteristics that creates the style of Dota, but we cannot consider this a reason for superiority of Dota 2.

11. Game Mechanics: Penalty for Death

Here Pro is not taking into account how the games are balanced. If you consider this a good characteristic, then adding this to LoL would improve it, but this would not be the case. Sure, in Dota 2 you can kill the carry to avoid him getting a new strong item while you get yours, but in LoL you would not be able to reach the point where you can kill the carry because the snowballing at the start of the game would be higher.

Champions are weaker than heroes. If you don't get the items in the first place, you will have problems against those who have items. Without the penalty, you will still be able to get items so you can still create plays for the comeback.

12. Game Mechanics: Terrain advantages

There are also positional advantages from the terrain in LoL mainly because of the shape of the jungle. There are curves that doesn't let you see the other side until you are there, just like higher terrains. There are no miss chance.

LoL doesn't have destroyable tress, but have Bushes, which affect vision. Those are used a lot with the jungle for jukes. They are simpler than the tress and less random, but it also gives you option in teamfights.

The changes of vision of the last season made bushes more important, even after the change of size and shape of some of them.

13. Game Mechanics: Teleportation back to base

The reason players spam more abilities in early game in LoL compared to DotA is not because of how punishable it is. This is actually contrary to the snowball argument considering that a more snowbally game would be more punishable. The reason of this is because you need to control your lane and your opponent from farming. In LoL there is no denying. You need to harass using your abilities. Notice that this don't have the same limitations of denying because harassing is not always the best thing to do. Mana costs are lower, but you also need those spells (that also have less damage or less powerful cc), but losing your mana because you tried to harass can cost you the lane.

And there are also a lot of other types of resources that creates different scenarios related to harassment and control of lane.
Denying has the same advantages and disadvantages that farming has. Sure, there are complex scenarios that are exceptions, but most of the cases are the same.

About the late game importance of TP scrolls, I don't see how is it would a reason Dota 2 is superior than LoL. TP scrolls should not be compared with recall of LoL. I think a better comparison would be teleport summoner spell. Taking teleport to have its advantages costs a huge summoner's spell slot, and would give you a weaker laning phase than someone that carries ignite or exhaust.

Final Notes:

Pro's argument can be summarized as non-gameplay arguments, pay-to-win arguments, and snowballing arguments.
The arguments that are not related to gameplay are the less important as noted by Pro. Some of the information is false, or he didn't give enough explanation.
The Pay-to-win arguments are all false. League of Legends is not a pay-to-win game in any way.
Snowballing was a real problem for League of Legends and a common critic of the game. But the changes made by riot reduced the snowballing in the last season. Other arguments on why Dota 2 is not snowbally are irrelevant, also apply to LoL, or just shows the difference of style on both games.

Thanks. Vote CON.

Sources:

1. http://na.leagueoflegends.com...
2. http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...
3. http://forums.eune.leagueoflegends.com...
4. http://www.teamliquid.net...
5.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com...
6. http://www.nowgamer.com...
tkubok

Pro

1. Graphics


Since Riot games, is trying to update its graphics, I believe they are aware of how the graphics are outdated(1).

2. Tribunal

Even the people who are supporting your claim, agree that the problem is with the players.(2)


3. Unskilled Player as a reportable offense.


Your match making ranking is affected(3).

4. Character Aesthetics

All skins in Dota 2 can be obtained free, after any game, and all these items can be traded, even after you use them.

This, compared to League of Legends, where only some skins are available via codes, and cannot be swapped after use.

Also, you may not see this as relevant, but a lot of people consider character aesthetics as an important aspect of the game.


5. "Pay to win" vs. "Play to win": Runes


My opponent is basically saying that it is less problematic early on, and yet it clearly still exists as a problem. The problem is compounded later on, when the runes are far more expensive(up to 2050 IP), and having a full set of runes that are just as good as someone else, becomes more difficult, and requires more games.

In a situation where two players have played the same amount of games, the same amount of time, and are equally skilled, and are both level 20 and have purchased the same champions using IP points, one player can purchase more, and better runes, if one has an IP booster and the other does not.

This fact remains unchanged. It is still pay to win.

6. "Pay to win" vs. "Play to win": Heroes

It would take at least 12 weeks to play all champions for League of Legends. This is assuming that no champions are rotated twice, which is rarely the case.

In Dota 2, it could be done in a week or two, easily.

Also, only 11 of the 119 champions currently out, are available for 450 Influence points.(4)

That is compared to 32 champions that cost 6300. That is almost three times the number. In fact, combining the two cheapest costing champions(450 IP and 1350 IP), compared to the two higher costing champions(4800 IP and 6300 IP), the higher cost champions outnumber the lower ones, two to one.


7. "Pay to win" vs. "Play to win": New Heroes


“There is as much cheap champions than expensive champions in the highest tiers of the game.”

The most played champions for the Diamond league(The highest ranking tier in the game) for the past month, have the following Champions, with their IP costs shown next to them(5):

1. Janna 1350 IP

2. Lee sin 4800 IP

3. Caitlyn 4800 IP

4. Ezreal 4800 IP

5. Vayne 4800 IP

6. Jarvan 4800 IP

7. Nami 6300 IP

8. Sona 3150 IP

9. Graves 4800 IP

10. Blitzcrank 3150 IP

With the Diamond league in the past month, there are ZERO champions in the top 10, or even top 20 most used heroes, that cost 450 IP, and in the platinum league, there is ONE hero(Ryze), which costs 450 IP, in the top 20 champions of the past month, compared to 7 champions that cost 6300 in the top 20 for the Diamond league.

If 450 IP Champions are as good as the 6300 IP champions, they would be used more frequently by the highest tier groups.

8. Game Mechanics: Character Viability and Snowballing


“They don't look as specialized because of how the games are balanced.”

If the games are snowballing, then clearly, the games are not balanced. The heroes are, and that's the problem that produces an imbalance and contributes to snowballing. Dota 2 actually has heroes that are highly specialized and more numerous than LoL.

“Opponents will get strong by buying items, not by getting gold. So the result of the comebacks depends mainly if the opponents bought their items with the gold they won.”

This is absurd. Items are bought using gold, so getting gold is necessarily tied to getting stronger. Furthermore, is my opponent really suggesting that a team would not buy items with the gold they won, and instead, let their Gold keep stacking, without buying anything?

“About the study of teamliquid. It is outdated. It is from 2012 and only takes into account games from the MLG and Dreamhack.”

I wouldnt call 2 years as outdated, as LoL was released in 2009. Furthermore, MLG and dreamhack are both major tournaments with a large prize money pool.


“And it is outdated, not only because it is from 2 years ago, but because riot changed the snowballing the last year.”

The article(6) my opponent cites, clearly states at the end of the Snowballing section:

“Whether that's a good thing or not we won't yet know.”

In other words, whether this will actually fix the snowballing issue, is still uncertain, because it has only just been implimented this season, and still is.


9. Game Mechanics: New heroes and balancing issues


“Now Pro claims that "New heroes are always imbalanced" and not most.”

In the previous section, I was referring to how most of them were imbalanced in terms of being overpowered, and the rest being imbalanced towards being too weak. I thought it was obvious when I specifically addressed how they “tend to be overpowered”.

They are always imbalanced, and most of them are imbalanced towards being overpowered.

“So basically what seems balanced or imbalanced by solo queue players don't matter much and a lot of times is not true.”

Riot consistently needs to re-balance it's champions, which is clear, even in the season 4 patches in a one month period alone, where a total of 20 champions were changed to balance them out.

Dota 2 has had zero champions changed since the beginning of the year.

10. Game Mechanics: Denying

Denying does add options on how to control the lane. It is necessarily an extra, additional option as to how you go about controlling the lane and controlling whether your opponent gets more exp/gold.

Also, no, the best thing you can do to control the lane is to last hit enemy creeps, and gain exp and gold. Denying prevents your opponent from getting as much exp, but whether it prevents them from getting gold, depends on whether your opponent is actively trying to last hit. But killing enemy creeps, necessarily adds gold and experience.

And yes, Denying is certainly optional. A player isn't forced to deny, or lose. Games are not determined by which side has the most denies.

11. Game Mechanics: Penalty for Death


“in LoL you would not be able to reach the point where you can kill the carry because the snowballing at the start of the game would be higher.”

So the reason this wont work, is because the game snowballs so hard. This, after you said that Riot fixed the snowballing problem? I suggest you follow your own advice, and be careful with what you write.

Furthermore, is my opponent suggesting that the game snowballs so hard, that even ganging up on the hero, 3v1, would not work?


“If you don't get the items in the first place, you will have problems against those who have items.”

Even if you get the items in the first place, if your opponent gets better items, you will still have problems against your opponent. This is why losing gold on death, helps fix this problem. Losing gold, sets your opponent back. Not losing gold, at best, only stalls your opponent.

You necessarily have a better chance at winning when you are on the losing team, if your opponent loses gold on death.

12. Game Mechanics: Terrain advantages

Since tree mechanics, actually provide more options, as does ramp mechanics(as opposed to simple line of sight blocking in jungles, which Dota 2 also has), therefore, my point stands. There are more options, and jukes are more meaningful in Dota 2 because of the larger number of options.

13. Game Mechanics: Teleportation back to base

Since abilities in LoL cost less mana and have shorter ability cool-downs, this necessarily makes it less punishable than Dota. There are even skills in LoL that cost nothing at all, like Renekton's skills.


“And there are also a lot of other types of resources that creates different scenarios related to harassment and control of lane.”

And yet, Dota 2 has more. Everything that LoL has, Dota 2 has as well, and then some.

“About the late game importance of TP scrolls, I don't see how is it would a reason Dota 2 is superior than LoL.”

It helps balance the game out. It allows the losing team to gain a tactical advantage against the stronger, winning team. You might as well be asking why snowballing is a bad thing.

“Taking teleport to have its advantages costs a huge summoner's spell slot”

Recall is given to all champions, and does not take a spell slot. I suggest my opponent read the argument I am making, more carefully. TP is useful for a team that is pushing, because it lets them return back to base to heal, and deal against an opponent who is pushing a lane near their base. This is the same mechanic as Recall.

Sources:

1. http://na.leagueoflegends.com...

2. http://forums.euw.leagueoflegends.com...

3. http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...

4. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com...

5. http://www.elophant.com...

Debate Round No. 2
ArcTImes

Con

Rebuttals

1. Graphics

I didn't say that the LoL graphics were perfect.
They don't need a huge graphic card. It was only a change of particles that improved the visuals.
Improving doesn't show that the graphics of one is better.

2. Tribunal

I posted the Tribunal FAQ. There you can see that cases are reviewed by Player support.
There is no automated punishment.

3. Unskilled Player as a reportable offense.

What Pro's source says "it will be used to improve the performance of our matchmaking system".
It is used for matchmaking research.

4. Aesthetics

I didn't consider it relevant because the comparison is not fair. The difference is not relevant when you are talking about a company that make profit
from a lot of games with a company that only have one game and the only profit they make is because people buy their skins.

You can be sure about this when you check stats about the profit of the micro transactions of some games. [1]
You can compare Dota 2 with Team Fortress 2, which is another Valve Game. Dota 2 is clearly the most played game in Steam, but TF2 that has less than the half of players than Dota 2,
has more profit than Dota 2. This is not a problem for a company with a lot of games.

5. Runes

I said that the problem is non existent at all moments.
The way Dota 2 is balanced requires having all the heroes. This doesn't happen in LoL.
In LoL you can have a balanced game without all the characters. How is that possible? The reason is that heroes tend to be really strong and counterpicking is a lot of the times really important.
But counterpicking is less important in LoL. It still exists but there are no hard counters so you can make a strong team even if you were counterpicked.

Considering this, you don't need to buy champions before you buy runes

6. Heroes

But those are new players. Why would the case of LoL be pay to win?
The reason I ask this is because these are games that need to be learned, and that take time. Being able to use all the characters by new players in the less time possible is irrelevant.


7. New Heroes

The highest division is Challenger.
Pro's source is outdated. There are only 113 champions listed, and right now there are 119 champions. [2]
I was talking about professional and tournament play.
Last tournaments had 2 champions of 450 IP as the most played champions. Soraka and Kayle. Ryze was played but was not as popular.
Now also notice that I used the word cheap and expensive. I-m really sorry for using ambiguous words but I was trying to divide the champion list in 2. There is a cheap half and a expensive half.
This is a better division because the fact that there are more 6300 IP champions than 450 IP champions in the highest tiers is because there are also more 6300 IP champions.

8. Character Viability and Snowballing

Again, specialization as Pro describes exist in LoL too.

"Furthermore, is my opponent really suggesting that a team would not buy items with the gold they won, and instead, let their Gold keep stacking, without buying anything? "

No, I was talking about the fact that the punishment for deaths are only relevant when a player is saving gold for a bigger item when talking about snowballing.
The problem is that it will not only affect that. You should not add that in LoL because snowballing will be bigger because of how the games are balanced.

The source is outdated because it is studying something that was already changed.
MLG and DreamHack are good tournaments, but it has teams with a lot of different levels of play. Being able to win after an advantage could be just the result of the higher level of one team against the other.
Notice how the study doesn't show the games that were close. And the amount of games is really low for statistics like tat to work.

The article I cited was to show that the source of Pro is outdated and unreliable when talking about snowballing.

9. New heroes and balancing issues

I apologize. I'm so used to players complaining about being unable to beat something the don't understand that I thought about the words overpowered and imbalanced interchangeably.
But it is still false. Most of the new champions are balanced and don't see changes in the next patches.
About the changes of the champions. Remember that Riot did huge changes in the season 4. Of course champions needed to be re balanced. The game was different.

10. Denying

It seems that Pro and I are talking about different things when we say "controlling the lane". Pro is talking about the ways you could get more gold and exp. I'm talking about how the lane is moving.
When you deny, there are less creeps attacking your creeps so the lane pushes to your side which is safe and dangerous to your opponent. This and the added benefits of denying exp and gold to your opponent
makes it the best tools for controlling the lane. This is not the same as farming.

And about denying being option, technically you could say farming is optional too because you don't win games having more farm. You only need to kill the enemy base. But it is probably the best think you can do,.

11. Penalty for Death

"So the reason this wont work, is because the game snowballs so hard. This, after you said that Riot fixed the snowballing problem? I suggest you follow your own advice, and be careful with what you write."

The snowballing would be hard if the penalty for death would be implemented in LoL. This is because how games are balanced, how the character scales, how strong are the items, difference between cheap and expensive items.
The team that is winning would be able to get their items after the first kills and able to kill the other team without items without any problem.

Penalty for death is not necessary and it is not necessarily good. It is definitely not good for LoL.

"You necessarily have a better chance at winning when you are on the losing team, if your opponent loses gold on death."

Sure, but when you are even, you are the one losing a lot if you die. And considering that the team with better items have more opportunity of getting kills, this won't change snowballing.

12. Terrain advantages

I was talking about features that also appear in LoL. Jukes being more meaningful in Dota 2 doesn't make an important point at all. There is a lot of other differences that affect this.
The trees give more options to player to escape, but why is that something good? The difficulty of ganks on LoL is higher because of the less options for juking. Only walls, bushes and curves could be used for this.
But also things like turret damage affect this. You can't just dive without thinking in LoL. And sure, this is an exaggeration because you should be also thinking before diving in Dota 2, but my point is that differences like this
only serve as differences of pace and style. Jukes would be too easy if more options were added, specially with abilities with blinks and dashes with low cooldown.

13. Teleportation back to base
\
"Since abilities in LoL cost less mana and have shorter ability cool-downs, this necessarily makes it less punishable than Dota. There are even skills in LoL that cost nothing at all, like Renekton's skills."

Failing skills could be the reason of losing the lane. Harass is very important in LoL because of this. Your opponent will be able to reduce your health with harass. If you fail your skills
then your opponent has the opportunity to kill you.

Harassing is also a tool for controlling the lane.But this is not as simple as denying because there is a lot of things to take into account. range of character, damage of character, resource system, and cooldown.

Renekton actually has a resource system, Fury. Renekton's abilities indeed have no cost, but Fury determines if his skills are considered strong or weak. Basically he needs to be in combat to gain Fury With 50 of Fury, his skills do more damage.

Actually there are more resource systems in LoL. And even if Dota had more, this can't change the fact that it is more important in LoL because the resource system is only relevant after heavy use of spells.
Having mana to use only one spell, or having energy to only use one spell don't show the differences between resource systems.

About the TP Scrolls. The winning team can buy those TP scrolls too. If all 5 have complete builds I don't see how that would be a problem.

And I understood the argument. Before that line I said, "TP scrolls should not be compared with recall, but with the TP summoner's spell". The TP summoner have the same late game advantages that TP scroll have.
The slot is huge compared to the item slot in Dota. In LoL is used for split pushing and going to fights quickly. The reason not all players take teleport is because it is not as game changing as Pro describes it.

Thanks for the debate. Vote CON.

Sources

1. http://www.gamesindustry.biz...
2. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com...
tkubok

Pro

Although I did not expect Con to write a counter argument, as the rules did not mention that the Conclusion and summary for the last round only applied to Pro, nonetheless, I shall only right a general conclusion and summary with regards to my debate.

1. Graphics

As I have said, Riot has started updating its graphics, and understand that their graphics was worse than it was before. Since Dota 2, as my opponent has pointed out, requires a more powerful graphics card, and Riot is knowingly trying to update theirs, therefore the graphics are better.

2. Tribunal

What Con has said, does not change the fact that Players are the ones who vote, and therefore are certainly in some way involved within the process of banning.

3. Unskilled Player as a reportable offense.

As satted before, it states that it will be used to improve the performance, which is strictly different from research alone.

4. Aesthetics

My opponent has basically switched his arguments from “You can get skins without buying them” to “It's not their fault, they need to make money after all!” This only makes my objection, more valid.

5. Runes

My opponent has failed to refute my counter argument regarding runes, and instead, switched to a discussion regarding buying heroes instead. Therefore, my point about runes, stand.

6. Heroes

My opponent has brought up an argument I have already addressed, namely the fact that new players cannot play champions that have finished rotation despite getting the hang of, and getting better with that champion, therefore making the game Pay to Win, as someone who pays for their champions can play, and get better at that champion, indefinitely.


7. New Heroes

The stats are not outdated, as in my argument, I have clearly used the statistics of the 2 higher divisions in the past month of this year. The fact that they are the 2nd and 3rd highest, does not change the fact that they are the higher tiers of the League of Legends community, and therefore one of the best players.

8. Character Viability and Snowballing

As I have pointed out, the specialization with Dota far exceeds that of League of Legends.

Furthermore, as I pointed out in the article, it is still unknown whether the changes have actually fixed them, as they are season 4 changes, which are occurring right now, and still occurring. Therefore my opponent has failed to demonstrate whether the problem with snowballing has actually been fixed, and not just changed.

9. New heroes and balancing issues

My opponent previously mentioned about how the Champions in League of legends is balanced, and that their strength does not affect snowballing. And yet, now he admits that the champions have been rebalanced for season 4, presumably to fix the snowballing problem, demonstrating his claims to be false. My point stands.

10. Denying

As I have discussed diverting your creeps into your neutral creep camp, which is also an example of denying your opponent of the Experience/Gold, and which clearly affects the movement of the lane, Pro's objections have not addressed this at all.

Furthermore, as previously stated, Gold affects the strength of your champion, my opponent has been proven wrong about how farming is not controlling the lane.

However, since my opponent has now admitted that Denying is an option, after specifically saying “Denying doesn't add options“, therefore, it is clear the Pro has won this debate.

11. Penalty for Death

My opponent has failed to address the crucial part of my argument, that demonstrates why his is wrong, namely, the fact that you can gang up on a specific enemy champion, 2v1 or 3v1, in order to kill him. This addresses the problem that my opponent has presented, namely how the team that is stronger, would be able to kill the weaker team without items, easier.


Furthermore, again, my opponent has not addressed the fact that if you are even, and you die, you become the losing team, which means that this mechanic comes into play, and therefore evens it out, while giving the additional benefit of, as previously mentioned, getting the losing team a better chance at coming back.

12. Terrain advantages

My opponent has basically admitted that the jukes are more meaningful in Dota 2, and that trees give more options to escape.

However, my opponent has not addressed my argument of how the destruction of trees plays an important part with regards to how well someone can juke in Dota 2, which is implemented, and an important aspect of Trees.

13. Teleportation back to base

None of what my opponent has stated, changes the fact that the mana cost and cooldown for Dota 2 is higher than LoL, and therefore more punishable, which would mean that failing your skills would have less of an impact in LoL than in Dota 2. More resources in LoL does not change this fact, either.

Furthermore, again, my opponent has not addressed the fact that since TP scrolls take an extra slot, this means that the side with a TP scroll in its inventory is necessarily sacrificing a slot, and if the team is stronger, then the item that could go into that slot would also be more expensive and stronger, therefore making him weaker. And since I was specifically talking about TP scrolls in terms of returning to base to counter enemy pushing, and to heal, therefore TP scrolls within this context, apply to the “Recall” ability in LoL, and not the Summoner Spell.



At best, my opponent has refuted, points 2 and 3, and yet all other points clearly stand. He has admitted that points 1, 4, 9, and 10, and has been unable to refute the rest. The winner is clear. Vote Pro.

Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
I admit, even as one of this site's top voters... I am very quick to cast a vote on an FF, on any subject. Yet a real debate, will depend on my mood.
Posted by ArcTImes 3 years ago
ArcTImes
lol. Not everyone is interested in video games.
Posted by tkubok 3 years ago
tkubok
Seriously. SERIOUSLY?

Why did the last debate, which didnt even finish properly, get a vote, but we didnt.
Posted by ArcTImes 3 years ago
ArcTImes
Sorry for the confusion. I didn't think it would be ambiguous, but I see it now.
I used the 2 lines to describe what Pro should do. I was mentioning Pro only.

But the same amount of rounds for both is fair. The common thing in debates with 3 rounds is 1st round acceptance only and then 2 rounds for each when the instigator is Pro and have the BoP.
When the contender is Pro, the contender usually starts the arguments in the first rounds and doesn't write anything in the last round.
Like in this one http://www.debate.org...
I thought that because you were Pro, a summary instead of just "no round as agreed upon" was fair.

I will be more clear with my rules n my next debates. I'm relatively new and I didn't think that would be a problem. I'm really sorry.
Posted by tkubok 3 years ago
tkubok
You never said that the rules for the last round apply to pro only. You simply stated "The last round should not have new arguments". Round 3 is the last round.
Posted by ArcTImes 3 years ago
ArcTImes
The rules were talking about what Pro should do. The rules ensure 2 rounds for each one.
If Pro created the debate, the common thing is to ask for acceptance and then arguments and rebuttals.

This is the same, but instead of acceptance you can give a summary.
2 rounds for you and 1 for me doesn't sound fair.
Posted by tkubok 3 years ago
tkubok
I thought the last round was only supposed to have a conclusion or summary, and no new arguments? You seemed to have broken your own rules.
Posted by ArcTImes 3 years ago
ArcTImes
No. It was final notes of the round. It is not about all the debate.
Posted by tkubok 3 years ago
tkubok
I also dont know why you wrote "Final notes" in the second round, you might as well save it for the last round.
Posted by ArcTImes 3 years ago
ArcTImes
OMG. Reading again I noticed a mistake. I wanted to say "thank", instead of "think" in the first line lol.
Sorry for that.
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