The Instigator
KingDebater369
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
ArcTImes
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points

Dota 2 is better than League of Legends

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
ArcTImes
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/10/2014 Category: Games
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,034 times Debate No: 54414
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (17)
Votes (1)

 

KingDebater369

Pro

Ok. First round is just acceptance. Con thinks LoL is better (I will refer League of Legends as LoL)

Second Round: Present your arguments. (please no rebuttals!!! Just Arguments!)

Third Round: Rebuttals
ArcTImes

Con

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
KingDebater369

Pro

Here we go:

So first, I would like to point out that Dota 2 is a sequel of the original Dota, which was a mod for warcraft 3. This mod was released BEFORE LoL. Which means that Dota had the original idea of a MOBA, and the other MOBA's took it on from there.

ARTWORK
There's no doubt that the graphics and design of Dota 2 is more visually appealing. Graphics aren't everything, and some players may find the cartoony graphics to their liking, but for people who are new to the MOBA genre, and are looking for a game - they will find that Dota 2 looks much more visually appealing, and will lean towards playing the game.

COST
This is a HUGE factor when it comes to which game is better. ALL OF THE HEROES IN DOTA 2 ARE FREE! This is a huge difference from league of legends, in which there are 10 free weekly champions that rotate weekly. This means that you can be a professional Dota 2 player without paying a penny. No one playing the game will ever feel as if their opponent has an advantage over them simply because they payed more. And while it is true that in LoL, you can purchase Champions with in-game currency, this often takes a very long time to do so.

Complexity of Gameplay
Dota 2 is like Chess while LoL is like Checkers. Dota 2 is the more complex game and requires a lot more skill. Now I'm not saying that LoL doesn't require skill. It most definitely requires skill. All i'm saying is that at the top level - A Dota 2 player will have practiced a lot more to get to the same skill level of an LoL player.

Ammount of Players
There is no denying that LoL is popular. I'll admit that it is VERY popular. with over 30 million accounts, it is definately the most popular game in all of MOBA's. But, it is to be noted that LoL has been around for a lot longer than Dota 2 has. And also, I would simply like to point out that just because a game has more players doesn't mean that the game is better. For example, Justin Beiber's "Baby ft. Ludacris" has many views on youtube, but I think we can all agree that the song is terrible.

Community
The community in Dota 2 is very understanding. I remember when I played my first game of Dota 2, and I was dying left and right. The other players on my team were getting angry with me, until I told them that I was new to the game. They immediately stopped getting angry and gave some tips and advice. They comforted me, and one person even wrote "every expert was once a beginner". In my experince, the Dota 2 community is very good towards beginnners. The community is also very active - Videos, Artwork, Mods, Screenshots, Discussions, and Guides are posted regularly in the Steam Community forums.

These are the reasons why I believe Dota 2 is better. My opponent will present his/her stance in the next round

** I just want to kindly remind my opponent that there will be no rebuttals, and only arguments when he posts his/her round two. Rebuttals will be made in round three.**

Good Luck!
ArcTImes

Con

First, I want to thank my opponent for creating this debate. It's a topic that is discussed frequently in forums or social networks. Sometimes I find the arguments of both side unfair so my objective is to bring "objective"(as possible) discussion on the matter.

I want to clarify that as agreed in the comments, my position in this debate is against the resolution, but not necessarily claiming that "League of legends is better than Dota 2".
So I think the resolution "Dota 2 is better than League of Legends" is false or that the comparison about the quality of both games is meaningless considering the subjective nature of the topic and the criteria usually used.

Because of the rules, I'm going to present arguments. These arguments will favor League of Legends or will show the subjective nature of the comparison.

Arguments for League of Legends:

Balance:

League of Legends and Dota 2 are both team games. This is an important characteristic when analyzing the quality of the games because the best criteria is probably obtained around this.
And it's also important when talking about balance because both games are balanced differently.
In general, League of Legends is balanced around composition and Dota 2 is balanced around characters.

Now, I'm not talking about nerfs. Nerfs are usually done when one character is too strong compared to the rest. What I mean is that the way League of Legends is balanced favor compositions instead of single characters. In Dota, every hero is very powerful and can be countered. This usually creates shifts on strategy, but it's because of the heroes.

If your team gets heavily countered in LoL, it won't matter if your compositions does its job well.

An interesting example of this is the game TPA vs SGS where they ran a 4 supports 1 carry comp [1], which may be common in Dota, but not in League, at least very few cases in tournament play.



Now, you can see that every lane got countered, they started losing very hard, but ended winning the game just because of the composition. Pro could argue that the reason they were able to win is because of the forgiving nature of LoL, caused by the lack of punishment when you or your team mates die. But this is false. League of Legends is more "snowbally" than Dota 2 (and it's not like this is a good thing).
This has been proved by an study made by the site TeamLiquid.[2] Note that the snowballing has been reduced in recent patches, but punishment for death should not be implemented in LoL because the snowballing would be to dangerous for the balancing.

Gameplay:

This is another point related to team play. Gameplay is different in both games related to how characters work and how strong they are.
Now, "how strong they are" is not about how strong they are compared to the characters of the same game. "If all heroes are op, then no one is op" is true, but this is not an argument of imbalance, this is an argument of comparison between games. If we compare characters from different games, the average Dota 2 hero is stronger than the average League of Legends champion. And this difference rules the difference of gameplay of both games.

In league, each character is very limited compared with the great increase of power you get with team work.
This shows 2 types of skills. Individual skills and team skills, even social skills can be beneficial.

Now, this should be analyzed from the team point of view. This is not about solo queue, this is about a team that can be organized and know each other. This where the real team game shows up.

In this case, it doesn't matter how good you are, you can't win alone.
In Dota, you have more presence as an individual. Sometimes it would be even better if the feeder was not in the game because the punishment that the game has and the scaling, which is also different than league, makes it easier for one character to fight against several if fed, if strong enough, and with few counterplay in the field.

Features related to gameplay:

Bushes

Also called brushes (I don't know why yet). This creates gameplay, specially in top and bot lane and also creates different scenarios based on the position of the teams and team mates for teamfights, ganks, etc.

Buffs

This are similar to runes of Dota, but they are not random.

Runes and Masteries

This diversify strategies because different team comps can be possible depending on these, because different champions can use different roles that would not be possible with LoL items.

Argument against Dota 2:

Bug vs Feature:

I was going to use the title "Bugs", but in Dota 2, these characteristics are features. These are intentional copies of the bugs of Dota because they liked how these work.

Now, characteristics are not bad because they are bugs. A bug is a defect in the design, something that you didn't want, but happened. But things can go very well.

A bug that could be considered a good characteristic is that one that creates gameplay. It is the one that is optional, because it adds routes of decisions, in other words, they don't limit your thinking to only one decision because it's necessary.

One example is the stacking of Mutalisk on Starcraft:Broodwar. This is a really strong trick that can be done thanks to a bug where all the flying mutalisk stack so they can attack to the near target together because they had the same "magic box".
The point was that it was not necessary, sometimes it was better not to do it. It was strong, but it also had its really strong disadvantages.

But in Dota 2, there are "features" that were bugs that didn't create gameplay, and don't create gameplay now:

Denying

This is one of the characteristics of Dota 2 that Dota 2 fans usually use as arguments against LoL because Riot didn't implemented it in their game. It is supposed to create gameplay giving you something to do in lane phase until the kills, fights and ganks start. Or giving you a tool for lane control.
But this is false. If you are in a solo lane, denying more or denying "better" is beneficial and it's better that you do. Better deniers get better results. It is a skill players have to learn and master.
Sadly, there are no disadvantages to denying. Of course, if you can't deny, that's bad for you. But if you don't get punished because you deny, in a different way that you would get punished for farming, then it's not creating gameplay, it's limiting it.

It is possible for lane control without denying. It is difficult, but is possible, and you can see many scenarios where it's important to do it in LoL

The only case it makes a different is in the trio lanes (which are not possible in LoL), but that doesn't change the fact that it's limiting the rest of scenarios.

Creep stacking

This is another bug in the original DotA caused by a timer limited by the map editor of warcraft 3.
This suffer the same problems that denying suffer. At some points and with some heroes you have to do it, you need to do it.

Important notes:

At the end, the balance and the gameplay can be also subjective. And the discussion seems less relevant at the highest level of play, where difficulty and teamwork seems similar.
The features that limit gameplay creates the styles of each game(because sure, that also happen in LoL).
This is the only thing that differentiate the games.

So my last argument is that both games are great and should be played by those who enjoy them.

PD: In my last round I will refute every single of my opponent's arguments.

Thanks for the debate. Vote for CON.

Sources:

1. TPA Unconventional 4 SPs Comp (video)
2. http://www.teamliquid.net...
Debate Round No. 2
KingDebater369

Pro

KingDebater369 forfeited this round.
ArcTImes

Con

Sadly, my opponent forfeited because of time constrains.

I will still rebut some of the points because I consider them necessary for my case.

Rebuttal:

"Which means that Dota had the original idea of a MOBA, and the other MOBA's took it on from there."

This is false. The wc3's map DotA AllStars was released before LoL, but the first MOBA is an Starcraft:BroodWar map called Aeon Of Strife. [1] This is the first map to have the core characteristics of a MOBA.

"This means that you can be a professional Dota 2 player without paying a penny."

This is obviously true, but is also true for LoL. Riot even give full account to professional players with all the skins.

"No one playing the game will ever feel as if their opponent has an advantage over them simply because they payed more."

LoL is not play2win. My argument on balance explains why this is possible in LoL, you don't need to have all the heroes in LoL, and having them will give you more options but not an advantage.

No player should feel an opponent has an advantag,
You will always find people better than you that didn't pay a cent and are able to win games from the start, since 0 champions purchased.
And if you use money in LoL, the best thing you can buy is skins that don't affect gameplay.

"Dota 2 is like Chess while LoL is like Checkers."

This analogy doesn't make sense. Chess and checkers are 1v1 games. A better analogy would be "Dota 2 is like American football and LoL is like basketball". This is also a good analogy about how balance and gameplay works, as well as how strong carries are.

The rest of point are subjective, unnecessesary or were already explained in my arguments.

Thanks for the debate. Vote for CON.

Source:

1. http://www.getdota.com...; Q: How popular is this game? What is its background?
Debate Round No. 3
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by markpoop 2 years ago
markpoop
@arcwarden, I submit to you. Good point and I apologize for the language comment. You are very proficient in English considering it's not your first language.
Posted by ArcTImes 2 years ago
ArcTImes
The analogy of chess and checkers is really bad because you can't just make an analogy to talk about some apparent characteristics like complex vs simple.
Those are team games. If both games were 1v1, then I believe you, LoL would be too simple, but it's not. The depth of the games should lie in the team concept, and that's exactly what LoL has. If you disagree with the criteria, that's fine, but you should give reasons for that, instead of giving a lame analogy.

And the reason your second comment would be that English is not my main language. If I had too many mistakes, a S&G points for king woul dbe understandable, but there is no way he would deserve points on arguments.
Posted by markpoop 2 years ago
markpoop
Also in terms of debate, no biased towards dota, I think kingdebater had a better structured and organized argument. (Well spoken too, no offense arc). If he had time I would have expected king to come out on top.
Posted by markpoop 2 years ago
markpoop
The analogy that dota is chess and LoL is checkers wasn't bad. Dota is more complex, chess has different pieces that do diff things. LoL is less complex, checker pieces all do the same thing.
Btw if anyone wants to do a 2v2 I love debating I'm a big dota fan, I know it very well and have taken interest in this argument, would love to discuss.
Posted by ArcTImes 2 years ago
ArcTImes
@tkubok OK, I'll send you a challenge. Accept it unless you want to have a 2v2 debate.
I want to do some 2v2 debates now so maybe we can debate about this with a 2v2 if you get a partner.
Posted by tkubok 2 years ago
tkubok
Arctimes, wanna debate this with me? I think Dota 2 is superior to Lol :)
Posted by ArcTImes 2 years ago
ArcTImes
@KingDebater369 Sorry to hear that. Anyway, thanks for the debate.

GLHF
Posted by KingDebater369 2 years ago
KingDebater369
Unfortunately, I will not be able to post the last round of the deabte. I'm sorry - but things have been busy lately, and I have a lot of stuff going on. I will forfeit - You may win the debate. It was fun debating though - and to be honest, your arguments are so good they are super hard to rebut. You can rebut to my case if you want to. Anyways, see you around.
Posted by KingDebater369 2 years ago
KingDebater369
Yeah I understand.
Posted by ArcTImes 2 years ago
ArcTImes
Btw, In the 3 minutes video that I posted, the red team is TPA, and it's the one running the unconventional comp. Just clarifying that it's not a long video with the complete match.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 2 years ago
bladerunner060
KingDebater369ArcTImesTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct for the forfeit. LIkewise, I feel like Pro's case was hampered by the "free round" he gave Con, who was able to fully lay out a case and not have it be really rebutted. As always, happy to clarify this RFD.