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Dota 2 v. League of Legends

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/7/2015 Category: Games
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,428 times Debate No: 67965
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
Votes (3)




My opponent (Valar_Dohaeris) and I will be arguing about which game is better.
My opponent will argue in favor of LoL, whilst I will be arguing for Dota 2.
We will be arguing about aspects of the game and determining which game is better.


R1: Acceptance from Valar_Dohaeris, no args.
R2: Opening arguments, no rebuttals.
R3: Rebuttals.
R4: No new arguments, final rebuttals and conclusion.

1. No semantics
2. No trolling
3. Wikipedia is acceptable ONLY for basic information regarding the games.
4. Forfeits result in an automatic loss on either side.
5. (Voters) Please provide a valid RFD.

BoP is shared by me and my opponent.

Failure to comply in a rule results in a strike.
3 strikes and a 7 point victory is awarded to the opposition.

Good luck and be sure to have fun :)
Debate Round No. 1


I thank my opponent for accepting.

With that being said, let me head straight into my arguments.

I. Map Styles

I-1. Graphics Ahead of its Competition

Let me show you some photos in order to give you a general idea of this topic.

The above photo is the older version of the Summoner's Rift map, which has been updated countless times since its release, up to the newly reworked version (shown below)

The newer version looks significantly better than the older (as many could agree). However, when it comes down to comparison between the two maps, Dota 2 provides a far more significant edge.

This is the original form of the map that came out in 2011. LoL's newer SR came out late 2014, while it retained its older version up until that time.

From this we can clearly see that the competition (Dota 2) was far ahead the graphical capability of LoL. While LoL has provided a good map with its new update, many players seem to consider it a "rip off" from Dota 2's map, as the resemblence between the two is clearly evident.

As well, some of LoL's ability icons seem extremely cartoonish, and are hardly well drawn. This is probably up to the person's tastes, but I'm just stating.

I-2. Map Layout/Fog of War

In LoL, the map is relatively simple. Three lanes, three towers in each lane, a river, a jungle in each of the four corners of the map.

In Dota 2, the layout is the same, however there are additional elements added:

The map itself is relatively larger than the LoL map (in other words, it takes longer to cover a distance than it does in LoL). The stairs mechanic also plays a key role. If you're on top of the stairs you can see below, but not the other way around. This requires players to be careful in their choices to engage.

As well, League allows "bushes" to conceal your presence. In Dota there is no such thing, however there are "trees" that are able to be cut down and traversed through, to open up new paths of ganking.

In addition, there are "hard" and "easy" lanes. If you look in the map you'll notice that the river path goes astray and seems to go into the lane at an angle instead of a neutral path. If the lane was neutral in top and bottom, Radiant would be ganked easier in top, while Dire in bot. This allows for even MORE strategic thinking and decision-making in both hero picks and positioning.

Speaking of which...

II. Strategy is More Present

Dota 2 has far more strategic elements than LoL. Wile it is undeniable both games have great amounts of strategy implemented in them, Dota 2 opens up more possibilities to strategy, such as "creep stacking" and "denying" creeps and towers.

II-1. Denying

In League, if you and your lane opponent farm passively, with no assistance from a jungler, then you both gain a huge gold advantage over the others, with virtually no one stopping you. With the chance to deny, you can stop your opponent from getting minions while still playing passively, opening up the possibility of your opponent not getting levels and XP and putting you ahead of them. Denying towers is also a huge deal. When you deny a tower, members of the opposite team only gain 100 gold each. When they destroy a tower, people end up getting a good sum of gold each, as well as the appropriate XP if a hero is near the tower. When you deny a tower, you end up denying the enemy 500-1000 gold. That is a HUGE deal, as that is about 1k gold the enemy could've obtained, but because of your efforts they were not able to get ahead and get that one Radiance they needed.

Denying a creep causes the first two already but could potentially cause the third:

You deny the enemy gold.
You deny the enemy XP.
You may lead them into a trap for a last hit, deny the minion, then kill the overextender.

All of these reasons are GREAT reasons to deny. It opens up a broad spectrum of options for you to do if you can't find a good last hit. And if all else fails, and you can't deny, you just harass the enemy for getting their last hits! The existence of denying allows players to creatively outsmart their opponents in other ways LoL can't do.

II-2. Creep Stacking

Creep stacking also allows for more strategic jungling. You aggro a creep and drag it out of its home before a minute hits. After it hits, a new pair of creeps spawn, because the game has detected no creeps are in the area.

As well, there's unit collision in Dota 2 with the minions which allows the player to stand infront of their minions to prevent them from moving. During the beginning of the game, many pros do this, because it will push the lane closer to their tower, which allows for an easier gank for the jungler. Again, another evidence of strategy.

II-3. Item Builds/Item Strategies

The items and build strategies in Dota 2 branch out far more than LoL items. Many of the items in LoL have passive effects while many Dota 2 items have active effects. This requires the user to actually USE the item's active in order to gain a bonus out of it. Good examples of this are the Mask of Madness and the Blink Dagger (which is totally useless you activate it).

As well, many items in Dota 2 are more powerful but more expensive. This requires you to last-hit creeps more, farm for more gold, and make sure you;re going to use the item properly. The most expensive item in LoL is 3800g (Infinity Edge/Mercurial Scimitar) [4], while in Dota it is a whopping 7720g (Dagon, level 5) [5]. It takes someone a lot longer to get a good item or two than in LoL, which requires for more persistend farming and gold gain.

II-4. Complex Characters

If you play Dota 2 you're sure to know of Invoker. Often considered one of the hardest characters (if not the hardest) in the game to master, he has a high skillcap and a lot of strategy and power in his kit.

Invoker has 4 normal abilities: Quas, Wex, and Exort, three manipulatory spells. He can then cast Invoke to combine the currently manipulated elements into a spell.

Invoker can have a total of FOURTEEN spells at his disposal. Here's a tree to help illustrate the complexity of his kit.

With all of these spells, it is essential for the one playing Invoker to fully understand what the spells do and how they react with their agents in order to fully maximize its efficiency.

The same could be said for Meepo, another hero in the game.

Again, a well known member of the Dota 2 community for simply being OP if used correctly.

He can control and manipulate up to four clones of himself which can earn gold and xp just as he does. However, if one of the clones die, they all die. This makes Meepo a highly-strategy oriented character.

Which leads me STRAIGHT into my next point!

II-5. Micromanagement

Micromanagement also plays a key role in Dota 2. In LoL, you have very limited unit control, or control of other units. The closest I can think of are pets or clones (Annie's Tibbers and LeBlanc's Mirror Image), which can be controlled by hitting the alt key then right clicking while they are spawned.

However, Dota offers much more, having illusions (which are meant to confuse opponents as to who the real enemy is), pets (Visage's Familiars, which summon two monsters that require lots of management and can give a hefty sum of gold to the opponent if used incorrectly), and clones (Meepo's ult, Divided we Stand, which makes Meepo have up to four clones himself, but if one of the clones die they all die). You can left click over a region to select all units in the area, and when you right click all units you control will follow that position as well as LONG as they are all selected. Illusions, pets, and clones can all be put into separate lanes from the original spawner, which allows a lot of pushing power as LONG AS you manage to use the clones correctly.

A Naga Siren with her Q activated, a Manta Style and an Illusion rune picked up can have 7 illusions, which means 8 Naga Sirens on the map. Think about that.

III - Equal Playing Field for All

III-1. Rules/Masteries

With LoL, you have the option of Runes and Masteries. They both give you extra stats that can help in the game. With Dota 2, there are no runes or masteries. This allows for an "equal playing field" where members don't rely on leveling up in the game, and instead on pure skill. While being a higher level means you have more skill (probably), it is not necessary, unlike in LoL with its runes/masteries system.

III-2. All Heroes are Free

In LoL, you are required to buy the champions in order to play them (with the exception of F2P champions for that week). You can purchase them with either IP or RP. The problem with this system is that it sponsors pay to win. It encourages you to pay for all the characters, and those with more characters have more options to choose from than those without. This is what encourages people to spend lots of money on the game.

Take this as opposed to Dota 2, where P2W isn't present. As all the heroes are free, it gives newer people a chance to experiment and try out all the champs and not just buy it for 975RP and go "omg this champ sucks" and not be able to refund it (after 3 refunds, of course, at least Riot offers that).

For the reasons above (3 main points, in which there are 9 sub-points), it seems pretty obvious why I feel Dota 2 is the superior game.

Almost the max characters, phew!

I await Con's arguments. :)



Apologies to pro as some of my contentions will seem like refutations but they are not. You just cannot prevent a crossover when doing a discussion like this.

C1) Complexity and More Strategy

A noticeable difference in between Dota and LOL is that Leagues has an entire system dedicated to runes and masteries. The typical rolls in both games are pretty similar in regards to competitive game play . You have an ADC, Support, Top lane, Jungle, and Mid. Runes and Masteries open up an entirely new element of game play. Different champions operate differently with different runes and masteries and it makes for complex strategies and match ups. If you were to take zed mid, you could change his base runs and masteries in order for him to have reduced damage against ap carries ( if you are against an ap carry). If you are fighting an ad, you could do the same and rotate his skills to fight against an ad champ.

Where this varies from dota , is dota does not have it at all. Champions have base stats that remain the same which makes the match ups less fun. If someone picks a champion in Dota, you can expect a certain outcome to the match and the counter pick. Leagues gives you the option to counter champions and actually increase your base resistances and powers. This opens up a variety of champions in different lanes. Instead of running you traditional AP mid or tanky bruiser top, the runes and masteries system gives more depth to other champions and opens up new and unique champions to be played in different ways, making for more interesting match ups.

a) Items

Items in leagues have both passive and active effects. The depth to the items exceed that of dota though. You have anything from BOTRK, which pops a slow on your adversaries, deals 10 percent of their max hp in dmg, and even heals you for the same amount. This items has to be popped at the right time because of the cooldown duration. You can use it at the start of a fight to try and zone a carry from the fight, or you can use it at the end of the fight to chase down the people who were not wiped out.

This is just one item, there are countless more. View this chart just to see a few of these items

These items rotate between passive and active powers. Passive meaning it gives you bonuses that are always active without having you activate them, and active meaning you have to manually active them for strategic purposes. Active items can be anything from support items like Locket of the iron solari which gives a shield and reduces damage from incoming attacks. It can be to quick silver sash, which removes all debuffs applied on a champion to allow them to move freely without being debuffed upon activation. There is even an item that prevents turrets from firing that is called ohmwrecker. There are so many items, that some even make you invulnerable for a certain period of like zhonyas hourglass.

These active and passive items, add an entire new depth to the game that cannot be contested. Proper activation requires player insight and the ability to be aware of what you need to do and when you need to do it for maximum efficiency [1]

b) Spells

Spells in leagues exceed that of dota, with a variety of champions and abilities that cannot be surpassed. Some spells allow you freeze enemies in their tracks, others allow you to apply debuffs, other do knock ups, and others can apply mass CC effects(this is just some, there are thousands). Some spells even chain off other spells. Take Yasuo for example. His ultimate requires an enemy to be in the air for activation which can chain with other champions abilities like malphite. Malphite ults into a massive aoe knock up, into a yasuo ult that hits everyone in their air within the aoe effect. [2]

As you can see from the source and video ( see top of page as well if you did not check the source, it's the first video). Proper use of ults allow you to turn a fight that could otherwise be a wipe, into a gain for you team. Timing with spells is imperative to succeed in leagues.

c) Lane match ups

This plays in to what I was stating before, but lane match ups are an essential part of leagues. Winning your lane can snowball a game if done properly. Winning your lane requires proper use of runes , spells, and knowledge against the champion you are facing. You can deny creeps from mitigation. Meaning you can last hit a creep in order to get CS but that is not the ideal way to win lane. You are often left with choices about whether or not you want to get each and every CS or try and miss CS in order to make your adversary miss even more than you.

Think of it like this. If you are farming perfectly and you break nearly even in lane with your adversary at 92 to 93 cs at the 10 min mark, you have farmed perfectly. The issue is that he is just as farmed as you. If you miss CS and drop to 82 cs in order to make him back because you damaged him, you can effectively reduce his overall cs down to around 60. Choices make the game. Knowing when to use spells, when to go in, and when to use your items, plays into your lane match up which is much more complex than dota due to masteries and runes that accompany it. Each person plays different runes and masteries. Meaning you can play someone with an all AD kit or someone with an all armor kit and even do so with the same champion. Knowing what to do and when to do is along with optimizing your runes and masteries makes leagues a much more complex game.

C2) Team Fights are more advanced

For all the aforementioned reasons league of legends thrives off team work and team fights. You can not individually carry matches in high elo sometimes, and it requires for you to work with your team and have proper amounts of game knowledge. This goes back into C1. Proper use of spells, abilities, and items all play a factor in team fights. If you view the yasuo video (first video) you can see an example of a team fight turned around because of two amazing ultimate's that were timed perfectly when combined with active item usage. The depth and strategy in team fights makes leagues a much more amazing game, as it requires your entire team to work together in order to achieve an objective and win.

C3) Map

Leagues has a much more simpler map than dota. Dota's is slightly larger while leagues hits the key features (such as proper jungle camps) while mitigating the size of the map. The smaller scale map of leagues helps improve the overall team fight capacity. Meaning you can roam from mid to bottom if your lane is backed. You can roam from mid to top, or top can roam to mid. It makes for easier jungle ganks and jungle paths that invoke a more team oriented game. With the smaller scale map you have to be aware of your surroundings, and what is around you. You have to have wards up at the right time in order to see ganks coming. The map itself is the perfect size and requires you to be very aware of everything near you and around you.



The smaller map also pushes for a faster paced game in most cases. People are able to take turrets and rotate faster on LOL, invoking yet again more team fights. Bigger is not always better in some cases and this is definitely one of those cases.

C4) Character Skins

Leagues gives you the option to purchase aesthetics if you wish. Nothing about leagues is Pay to win but it does allow you to purchase visual upgrades which makes it more appealing to users. You can find sexy outfits for the girl characters or some cool looking stuff just all around. The amount of customization in leagues far surpasses that of Dota.

C5) More fun and More competitive

Leagues wins on both fronts. It is without a doubt the most competitive moba because it incorporates all the features that I mentioned before. The complexity and the ranking system allows you improve and keeps you where you belong. It's not a type of game where you can spam matches to improve your rank, you actually have to consistently win and improve your MMR to get your elo and division. The massive amount of users that come to leagues, along with it offering a 1 million dollar prize yearly for worlds, makes this game top of the competitive scene. The best players and users, from all around the world come to leagues with the hope of being the best

a) Fun

For competitive as it is, you can also just shoot the breeze and troll and have fun in norms. Leagues has nearly 27 times the amount of active users daily compared to dota [3][4]. This speaks volumes for how fun it is. The skins, customs skins you can make, along with just enjoying the feel of the game leagues is all around more appealing the masses. We can only judge this by which game people play. People would not play it if they do not like it. Most people attest that leagues is better than dota so they enjoy it more.

C6) More sexually aesthetic and pleasing characters

Need I say more

Debate Round No. 2


I thank opponent for his arguments. (I never once believed they were refutations, by the way :P)

I shall now begin my refutation.

To start I shall summarize each of opponent's arguments and refute.

Point 1: Complexity/More Strategy

Essentially this topic conveys the following points:

Runes/Masteries - basics and how it adds a deeper level of understanding to LoL
Roles - the basic roles in both games
Matchups - More interesting with runes/masteries

Point 2: Items

Depth - Items have "more depth" than items in Dota
Basic Items - Opponent shows examples of items, and a list of items on the wiki
Passives/Actives - Items with passives/actives, explaining some passives/actives like Zhonya's and Ohmwrecker

Point 3: Spells

Effects - Talking about the various aspects of the spells in LoL and how they require deep understanding to use properly
Ults - Mainly focuses on ults with champs like Yasuo (who is my favorite LoL champ) and Malphite

Point 4: Lane Matchups

Basics - Explaining the importance of laning and that it can determine the game
CS - Talks about the importance of CS and how viable it is to turn the game around.

Point 5: Teamfights
Importance - Teamfights are needed in games as you cannot "carry" in higher elo sometimes.

Point 6: Map
Talks about how LoL has jungle camps and is smaller allowing gameplay to be faster than Dota 2's

Point 7: Skins
Talks about how P2W "isn't present" in LoL
Proceeds to explain this is how Dota 2 is different from LoL; skins which truly change a character

Point 8: More fun/more competitive
Talks about how it is the most competitive due to the aforementioned features
Mentions MMR and ELO
Mentions the competivie scene and how it's a lot bigger

Point 9: Fun
You can "have fun" in norms
Explains that LoL is more popular, and that playercount is a big factor of if a game is liked or not

Point 10: "Sexually aesthetic and pleasing characters" *cringes*
Shows LoL skins which people seem to think are "sexy"

I shall now refute to each of these points.

Not to offend opponent, but many of his arguments talking about "depth/complexity" are hardly viable in comparison with Dota 2, with the exception of runes/masteries.

As well, he lists many common factors of both games, such as CS, teamfights, and strategies, which are far more present in Dota 2.

So quite a few arguments can be dropped from the start, as they are present in both games. Those arguments are:
the basic roles in both games
Items with passives/actives, explaining some passives/actives like Zhonya's and Ohmwrecker
Talking about the various aspects of the spells in LoL and how they require deep understanding to use properly
All of Points 4 & 5

These have been marked through, signifying they are not important in the following arguments.
This leaves opponent with quite a few claims still. I shall refute those.

Point 1: Complexity/More Strategy

I sincerely hope opponent read my arguments in my post regarding how Dota 2 has more strategy than LoL.
However, opponent does make a serious point when it comes to runes/masteries. Even summoner spells can be taken into account here.
But, this is all refutable with point 3 of my previous argument - Equal Playing Field.

In LoL, a lot depends on leveling up in the game. For instance, level 5 me (even though he has lots of MOBA experience) cannot use Flash just yet. I have to wait to level 12 in order to acquire this spell.

While still relatively early in terms of leveling, the thing that separates Dota 2 from LoL is the equal playing field. They don't care about your level. As long as you can play, you have access to what every other single player has, from level 1 to max level. With the exception of cosmetics and inventory items (through Steam, items you earn yourself by playing the game).

Speaking of which...

Counter Argument 1: Steam Integration

Dota 2 is only accessible through Steam, and because of this it has lots of Steam features such as:
1. Voice communication (none of that in LoL unless you install Curse Voice)
2. Community Market (where you can buy skins cheaper than market price)
3. Steam overlay (which is a hub connecting you to information about the game as well as Steam itself & the web)
4. Community Workshop (extremely important as LoL does no such thing, where the community can make models/skins that can potentially be put into the game)

With this hub of communication that LoL doesn't offer, it allows for better communication amongst teammates and just a central hub that LoL doesn't offer.

But back to the refutations.

Point 2: Items
I already refuted this in my previous argument but I shall state reasons that Dota 2 items are better.
1. Quite simply they are more powerful. Dagon, Butterfly, and Daedalus are good examples of this.
2. They cost more, requiring the person to work more to obtain their desired items
3. They have more effects added onto them than most LoL items

Point 3: Spells
Spells in Dota 2 are WAAAAAY more powerful than spells in LoL.
Let me give you three examples:
1. Nether Ward - Pugna
"Pugna places a nether ward that fires mana flares at enemy heroes who dare to cast spells, while also causing them to lose mana. Nether Ward deals damage equal to the damage multiplier times the mana spent by the enemy hero. Lasts 30 seconds." [1]
2. Rupture - Bloodseeker
"Causes an enemy unit's skin to rupture. If the unit moves, it takes a percentage of the distance traveled as damage. The damage is dealt through spell immunity." [2]
3. Finger of Death - Lion
"Rips at an enemy unit, trying to turn it inside-out. Deals massive damage." [3] (this "massive damage" is up to 1025)

These are just 3 examples of spells that are WAY more powerful than anything in LoL. I guarantee you if moves like these were in LoL, every person would use the character they were on.

Point 6: Map Layout
Jungle camps are much more predictable in LoL. However the Dota 2 jungle camps are arguably much harder to kill than the LoL jungle camps, and they provide more of a reward. As well, creep stacking is evident in Dota 2 to get double the gold from a camp, by having double the monsters. Thus the work will be harder on the junglers, but they will get more of a reward that LoL's jungle camps which now take forever to respawn.

As well, the longer map punishes those who end up going back to base. While it does take longer to rotate, it means a longer time for the other person to be caught out, and requires more strategy and coordination than a smaller map. As well, larger maps provide more variety. I know that I've gotten lost on the Dota 2 map before due to the sheer amount that actually IS there. But with LoL that was never the case. While this may seem good for LoL, it means for Dota that there are totally new areas to discover, but with LoL, it's the same old same old, with no real differences in gameplay.

Point 7: Skins
This can sorta be tied in with point 10 so I'll adress it here.
"Nothing about leagues is Pay to win"

You have the option to buy characters with real money and have a higher champion pool and more to choose from, having an advantage over those who don't spend any money on the game. If that's not P2W then I don't know what is anymore.

As for the skins, Dota offers skins too, but they're merely parts of skins. If you wish to buy a full set, 99% of the time it's cheaper than a majority of LoL skins, which are 975 RP, or about 9-ish dollars.

Dota 2 skins mainly vary around the 2-6 dollar range which is significantly cheaper. While it isn't a complete model change it is indeed a change.


Riot LITERALLY just put that model in MS Paint and tried to make a skin out of it.

I'm sorry, but many LoL players complain about "Dota fanboys buying tons of skins" yet some people buy a skin that SOMEWHAT resembles Deadpool.

As for the skins that are "sexually & aesthetically pleasing" that's simply Riot's attempt to drag figures that would consider these skins "sexy" into the trap of the game simply from the skins and how a character looks. It's a sad attempt to get people to play the game.

Point 8: Fun/Competitive
First of all, "fun".

I can have fun doing any other activity, it doesn't really matter. Just saying a game is more "fun" is very subjective. Naturally people will have different tastes as to what is "fun". Just because more people play a game doesn't make it better. I could say "Call of Duty is good because tons of people play it" yet I know that's a lie. CoD: Ghosts had a very bad rating, even though some considered it "fun" and a lot of people played it. Just because people enjoy something or have fun with it doesn't make a game "good".

Naturally good games will be a lot easier to have fun with, however I can have just as much fun with "Sonic Flash Racing RX" or some game like that. It won't matter the game, but if I have fun with it I have fun. More people playing a game does not represent it being "fun", or "good". Just more people play it. Again, many good games will have more people playing it. However games like Warframe (which are high in depth but not super popular) are still good and have a lot of nice features! Long story short, playercount doesn't equal fun.

Now onto the competitive scene.

I don't deny the competitive scene in LoL is a LOT better than in Dota 2. However, the incentive to win is a lot higher in the esports of Dota 2.

The Internationals tournament in 2014 had over a 10 MILLION DOLLAR PRIZE POOL. That is MASSIVE in comparison to what LoL offers. With this incentive, it strives the players to try harder instead of potentially slacking off like "it isn't a big deal".

Long story short, many of opponent's presented arguments in R2 are invalid and were successfully refuted.

I wish opponent good luck in the next round.



I should note that a debate like this is trying to compare apples to oranges, so it's rough. I will go into some rebuttals and then into the main contentions. I feel some of these arguments are going to even out in the end and the main factor in this is actually going to fall into the complexity argument. Which is what I really want to focus on.

1) Complexity

I am going to tie in all my previous points from other rounds. Meaning I am going to discuss runes , skills, items etc. My contenders primary argument against runes and masteries (along with summoner spells ) , is an equal playing field. He just makes a brief poke at this saying, he defeats my argument because a level 5 can't fight a level twelve. That displays a fundamental misunderstanding of how the matching and ranking system works. First a level 1 or 5 generally won't match a level twelve pre level 30. If you are a level 5, 90 percent of the time you are going to line up with people right around your level. Sure you may have heal and someone may have ignite, but this is only the case for 1 or 2 levels pre 30. You usually find this around levels 8-12 after that everyone has the same summoner spells and even then most of the levels are within 1 or 2 levels of each other. It's also not an unequal playing field as there are counters to flash and smite. People get ghost and heal at level 1 which can be just as or more effective with different strategies. Heal can cleanse the ignite off , and ghost can get you out of sticky situations. Just because someone is a level or two ahead of you, does not effect the game that much.

He's also saying people have more runes than other people which is generally false. There is a certain amount of exp that it takes to get to level 30 in leagues. Up unto that point the ranking system is pretty balanced and fair, meaning you are facing people around your level. Each time or win you lose you get points to buy runes or characters with. So when people buy runes, they can pick and chose what runes they want to buy. Some people will buy AD some will buy AP, some will buy life steal. It opens the game up for character customization and the playing field is in fact level because everyone is around the same level and has around the same number of points. Note this picture to show that it is not pay to win. You may lp for runes and masteries

My adversary keeps asserting that leagues is pay 2 win which is false, because the only actual *real money* you can put into the game is to get skins, champs, and aesthetics. Not actual items that will impact the game. All the actual runes and masteries are gained as you level, with the leveling being done on a level playing field. Post 30 everyone has their max runes, and can play ranked or regular to earn more if they want to focus on more than one area. Think of it like this, dota has a base for characters. Meaning when you pick a champ , what you pick is what you get. Leagues allows you to have that base line while giving you the benefit of changing that line to optimize lane match ups. The system is in fact really fair because the ranking system is really well done, and you match people around your own level.

a) Items

This is now subjective as to which items are better so this is not really a factor in this debate anymore. His items do the same thing or less than the ones I displayed. This is now merely preference so we can effectively negate this point as a stand still. Items in both games allow you to slow, deal damage, heal , cleanse etc. There is now way to determine a winner on this specific sub point other than voter preference

b) Spells

This is actually a point I can go into. My adversary is pointing to specific instances where spells do a lot of damage and are broken according to him. Noting that if leagues had this damage , people would only pick that specific champ. The issue is the damage that he is referring to is directly related to dota. Health and stats in both games work differently. What is 1k in one game could equate to 500 in another. He is literally focusing only on power which is such a fallacious argument. The depth and complexity of the skills are what matter.

So let's examine is the complexity of the spells. As I stated and which was basically non refuted, is that certain champions in leagues give you more play making potential. Dota is literally limited to around 2-5 champions that have optimized skills for doing insane stuff. Leagues has many. With kat you can dance in and out of fights. Lee sin is the king of making plays and being able to effectively use your skills well. Note the first video at the top of the page. His sonic wave allowing you to mark enemies and then hit another q to follow up, or using his shield to ward jump in and out of fights, with us ultimate being able to knock people away or back into team fights. The skill and outplay potential is virtually no comparison to dota. You have yasuo who can dash around fights and knock people up. You have zed who can shadow to shadow, that can QSS with items to reduce debuffs and then go back to his other shadow. Note second video. Leagues in general just has far more play making potential.

c) Build Paths

this ties into the previous ones but build paths are something else leagues has that dota fails on. Take kayle, you can pick kayle and build him ap, ad , or hybrid and each one is played differently and can be utilized in different ways. The same is true with many champions, and tagging this on to rune pages and masteries, you can optimize your skills for lane match ups.

2) Layout

We are at a fundamental difference in understanding and agreement on this point. He is asserting that a large map requires greater coordination but I think that is without doubt wrong. It's a simple case. Big map = less map mobility. Smaller map = more map mobility. When you throw mobility boots on a jungle in leagues , he can go from mid to bot in like 7 seconds. Knowing when ganks are coming, how fast they can come, and chaining off the ganks requires much more depth and team work than dota. The smaller map is a huge factor in proper teams fights and knowledge.

3) skins

his quote

" You have the option to buy characters with real money and have a higher champion pool and more to choose from, having an advantage over those who don't spend any money on the game. If that's not P2W then I don't know what is anymore. "

False. You can buy champions with real money if you chose, but you can also earn them. If you dump 1 grand into the game the only thing it does is open up a bigger pool to you. This does not give you an advantage that much either way. Most people focus only on a few champions to get good with them. While you can counter pick champions better if you have more champions open, the runes and masteries allows you to utilize smaller champions pools and outplay people that dump money into buying champions. Buying champions does not make you good at the game. I can take ezreal mid, top, or adc and still win my lane. Plus ranked Que requires you to have 10 champions open before you go in. This is fundamentally different than being able to buy runes and materies that would actually give you a bump. Anyone that improves their lane knowledge and optimizes their runes and masteries can win any lane match up and have an advantage over someone with a large champion pool.

skins are all aesthetics. They give you no benefits other than the joy of seeing them, which helps fund the competitive scene. The more money people spend on skins, the bigger the tournaments and prize money. Having skins open is a great thing in leagues. Dota 2 having way less skins, and way less options for aesthetics for a cheaper amount actually hurts them. Leagues has them at a fair price that everyone is willing to pay, which is generally (5 - 10dollars) for a skin with the exceptions of legendary skins that all go to funding riot and the competitive scene.

4) Fun and Competitive.

I agree fun is subjective. So we can dismiss this point other than reviewing what most people consider fun. The fact that 27 times more people consider leagues fun is a argument in my favor. Leagues has 8 x the player base dota does for a reason

a) Competitive

" I don't deny the competitive scene in LoL is a LOT better than in Dota 2 "

Ill dismiss the rest and take that starting sentence as a concession at this point.

5) Sexually aesthetic and pleasing girl skins

My adversary notes that this draws people to the game and makes them spend more money which ultimately fuels the competitive scene more.

R) Steam Integration

1) Community Workshop

he asserts you can't customize skins on leagues, which is false.

a website dedicated to crafting skins that you can dl and use in game

2) Voice

Leagues has a link to curse voice in game and when you log in half the time along with notations of how to dowload it. It takes 2 seconds and is a TP program supported by leagues that requires half the bandwith of normal chat programs. It was also optimized to help keep track of buff timers, respawns, etc.

3) Overlay

Leagues has something very similar which is called lolking and mobfire, which are both actively advertised and which riot backs. Both give you game knowledge about champions, and in game stats.

4) Market

I've explained why cheaper skins is actually bad
Debate Round No. 3


I thank opponent for his arguments, to which I shall now respond.

Firstly, many of opponent's quotes about me are false, with some exceptions. But I shall refute those when the section arises.

Runes/Masteries Contentions
I told opponent that I agree with him on runes/masteries being an example of something Dota 2 doesn't have. However, I rebutted that the idea of an equal playing field is what made Dota superior. While Runes/Masteries do add a field of depth, it (like a lot of other things in LoL) is level reliant, meaning that you have to be a certain level in order for your items to do more. This is mainly what I don't like about LoL. While it is fair when you have people of the same level facing you, it's a hindrance to those who want to fully customize, because they are restricted as they "aren't high enough of a level". No such limit exists in Dota 2, as no runes/masteries exist.

I never stated that a level 5 can't fight a level 12 or anything of the sort. I used "equal playing field" argument to state that no matter what level you are, you are relying on pure skill and not runes/masteries to help you win. Since none of those things exist there is no level limit and pure skill is all that matters as opposed to buying runes/masteries. As well, if the possibility is there for a level 5 to fight a level 30, the level 5 could still win, but he would be a huge disadvantage as he doesn't have flash/ignite, which is like a plague now, as it seems every person when they play a champ has at least one of the two (with the exception to movespeed junglers like Udyr/Hecarim, but even junglers require smite which is minimum level 10).

Read R2 about Invoker. Invoker is capable of having up to 14 spells; you must learn how to master his reagents and spells alike (as you can only have 2 spells active at a time).
Meepo has autonomous clones that he manipulates and require great micromanagement.
Naga Siren requires lots of illusion control and micromanagement.
Visage requires micromanagement and in general is considered relatively hard.
Io requires the player to be aware of others and their location on the map, and bring backup if needed.

Both games have their complex spells, however LoL's aren't as "powerful" or have as much insane mechanics to make the game "easier for everyone". A Riot employee even stated in an article they would probably never implement an ult like Rupture to help out those who don't know much about the game. [1]

Never ONCE did I state LoL wasn't complex. I agree with opponent by saying LoL is a complex game. However, with the additional features added onto the game. Dota 2 is far MORE complex than what LoL offers. Some champs are an exception, like Lee Sin and highly positional and mechanic-based champs, which I love playing. However, lots of heroes in Dota 2 have spells that work together (unlike the "literally 2-5" opponent claims) and require great positioning. If even a single Meepo is caught off guard he's dead. If Visage's Familiars are caught out that's a free 100g for the opponent. Ember Spirit needs to properly position his remnants. Simply stating stuff that goes on in LoL and that "Dota doesn't have" without any valid reasoning or sources behind it is a completely opinionated argument with no real sources.

This a combo between Dark Seer and Enigma. Dark Seer can set up a wall that replicates enemies and makes the duplicates attack their real selves, and Enigma can channel a black hole that disables enemies and sucks them toward the center, dealing damage while doing so.

The above video demonstrates that there is playmaking in Dota that requires great combinations of skills and strategy. And with characters in depth as Invoker and Meepo, and with ults as strong as Bloodseeker's and Enigma's, I feel that Dota both wins in the abilities' power, and teamfight potential. Another example is an Oracle + Pugna combo, which can render the user invincible unless they take pure damage.

P2W Contentions
Let me give an example.
Let's assume Little Jimmy is playing against a Thresh. He goes onto a site and sees "Leona is a counter to Thresh". He pulls out his parent's credit card and buys Leona. Then, if he has any shred of knowledge on the game, he knows that it'll be a hard time for Thresh as he picked Leona.

See what I mean?

This is what I refer to by P2W. A person would have more options in a fight and he could just spend money and buy the necessary counter picks. While it may be that Jimmy totally sucks sometimes, he can still give Thresh a hard time due to the counterpick and advantages of it.

Map Contentions
The map is somewhat arguable over, some prefer a bigger map some prefer a smaller. However, I prefer the bigger map. The smaller map allows for closer gameplay, but with a wider map, that allows for more ganking possibility, more area for your opponent to cover, and more punishment if you die, as it takes you longer to get into lane (not to mention you lose gold when you die in Dota).

I think this one is simply a matter of personal taste and preference, but in reality it isn't that huge of a difference. However there are mechanics on the Dota 2 map absent in LoL, and vice versa. We can simply agree the maps for both games are good have their individual advantages.

"The fact that 27 times more people consider leagues fun is a argument in my favor. Leagues has 8 x the player base dota does for a reason"

Dropped. Read my argument about popularity vs. if a good is game or not. CoD example for sure.

"Ill dismiss the rest and take that starting sentence as a concession at this point."

*sigh* You're supposed to read your entire opposition's argument, even if the first sentence of one such argument does agree with your stance...ultimately, this goes to show that you won't even read your opposition's arguments. Since you failed to refute that leaves an uncontested case.

"My adversary notes that this draws people to the game and makes them spend more money which ultimately fuels the competitive scene more."

This. This irks me.
The fact that a company would purposefully make it so that the skins have an appeal to audience merely for the purpose of being "sexually & aesthetically pleasing" bugs me. You don't need to have a lure to draw people toward your game. It should be good enough as in to not bring in childish stuff like that, and instead focus on the actual content of the game. I'm tired of having Riot do this JUST so they can make more money. And, let's face it, most of Riot's fanbase are males, so of course the males would want skins like these. In fact, I don't even care if it's to fuel their competitive scene. It's a sad way of making money.

Community Workshop
Opponent makes a false claim about my words. I claim "Community Workshop (extremely important as LoL does no such thing, where the community can make models/skins that can potentially be put into the game)". The rebuttal here is that the site isn't officially supported by Riot. It's user created, user-funded, and it's mainly for the user side, and there is a possibility of it going wrong. Take this as opposed to Valve, who actually listens to the community and implements their ideas. False claim from opponent.

Curse voice is good, but it only works with those who have it installed. If you want any chance of voice communication, you'll have to find someone else that uses Curse Voice (which is rare in LoL). Dota 2 has that option built it so you don't know if you have a chance or not of quicker communication with teammates; it's already built in. As for respawn timers, that was removed as Riot itself wanted the feature without Curse Voice. Dota wins here.

Dropped. The examples you give aren't overlays, just item builds/guides for those looking for them.LoL doesn't have a true overlay like Dota does with Steam. Not to mention, Dota allows item builds to be accessed in game from the shop menu, as LoL only has "recommended". And unless you set up a custom build yourself, LoL has no way to implement the builds of the community by itself.

I don't understand how you "explained" it.
It's cheaper than what Valve offers as the price of the skin, so you're basically getting a bargain.
If I want a Lich set that's normally 5 bucks, but someone's selling it for 4.50, I'll take the 4.50 set, as it's cheaper and I still get the same overall quality. As opposed to LoL, no such cheaper option exists. As well, Steam allows trading of items in-game.

That concludes my refutations.

To summarize:
I love LoL. I truly do, and I think it's a good game, as I've played it before. However, for the reasons above, along with the refutations, I have proven that Dota 2 could be considered the better game. Popularity/playercount have nothing to do with the game itself or how good it is; the quality of the game itself does. And while opponent put an impressive job against Dota 2, I feel his arguments are somewhat underwhelming and that I have successfully refuted them. I have played both games, while it seems opponent is making arguments without actually talking about them from a Dota standpoint, I'm making sort of a LoL standpoint, saying that there are still good aspects of LoL but I believe Dota is the superior game.

1. Many of opponent's arguments are dropped/weren't valid.
2. Opponent ignores some arguments thus leaving them uncontested.
3. Opponent makes blind assertions for arguments and doesn't quote me correctly.
4. Opponent fails to successfully prove his game is better, instead stating arguments about spells and combos needed to be pulled off in game, while I have displayed Dota having more complexity, more features, and a more level playing field for all.

I thank opponent for this debate and I hope we can debate sometime again in the future.



= Framework=

Why I have won this debate, I am going to do an in depth walk through. I have won or tied all these points, so we can effectively determine why I'm the winner below

=Points I should win=

1) Complexity

This argument goes to me as I have already went in great detail about how and why runes and masteries are perfect for optimizing your champion , along with going down different build paths. One champion can be played 3 different ways because of the amount of runes and masteries that are available. You can put an AD up against an AP, or AP vs AD vice versa. Using this along with summoner spells and the mastery page branches off into hundreds of different build paths that can determine how laning phases and team fights go.

My adversaries only response to this is a level playing field which is non validated. You can't pruchase runes, masteries, or summoner spells and it relies on you to play games. People that win games are generally in the same elo with other people that win around as much as them. This is where his entire argument falls flat, and why I win this point.

If you have a guy that has played 10 games and won 10 games, vs another guy that has won 9 games and lost 1 game, the runes and masteries they have open will be virtually the same. That is why the matching system is amazing. It puts you against people who are around the same level as you. There is a brief minority of people who have a small disadvantage for a very brief period of time, but the number is so small it virtually has no impact. Especially after level 30 almost everyone just has countless LP to spend and everyone has already bought every rune and mastery in the game. IT is already a level playing field due to how people are matched against each other, so you get the complexity of the runes and masteries system along with an already established equal playing field.

This playing field gives so much dept to the game that it makes it far surpass dota. Optimization is a primary factor in why leagues is such a good game. Being able to walk into a lane match up, and build your champion with full customization helps utilize more unique strategies.

This point without a doubt claery sides with me.

2) Skills

My adversary targets a very small pool of champions such as envoker and meepo to demonstrate the character complexity of DOTA. Those 2 champions do have a lot of depth, but it's limited to such a small pool that leagues wins in this aspect too. When you pit envoker and meepo up against lee sin, katarina, yasuo, ezreal, ahri, zed, leblanc, vayne, kassadin, fizz and many others there is literally no comparison. All of these champions have hte ability to dash in and out of fights in the blink of an eye, while making flashy plays that maintain a great deal of depth to play properly. Add flash and exhaust in the mix, the amount of skills are virtually no comparison. When you have such a small pool such as envoker and meepo and put it against 30 + champions that can flash, move to shadows, dash into fight, make holligrams , go back to previous points they marked etc. The play making potential is insane

3) More competitive

My adversary notes that leagues is *more competevie* but then responds saying it may by more competitive but dota people have more play more. This argument is self refuting as he contradicted himself. I am going to abide by the concession as he admits that leagues has a much larger esports scene , and that a vast amount of pro players prefer leagues which draws new users to lol daily.

4) More funding

This ties in with sexually appealing characters and skins, but the amount of money people spend on this goes to add to the competitive scene and improvement of the game which my adversary already notes is of a higher quality. The amount people buy skins for whatever reasons they chose adds more features and prizes to the competitive side of leagues.

=Points that are at a stand still=

Most of the following points are subjective in nature and we can dismiss

5) Items

Most of the times are similar and it relies of preference, we can move past this

6) Maps

Map size again is preferable to whether you want high impact fights all the time, or whether you want extended laning phases that rely on more 1 vs 1 on a island situations. I prefer the mix and push of the small map leagues offers because it makes team fights happen more often, and it makes you more aware of your surroundings.

7) Other features

Curse the workshop, and all the features in the last round my adversary brought up all are featured by downloads. My adversary asserts that you have to download it but that is not an effective argument. You have to download the game itself and updates to go along with it, so another download that acts as an extension of the game is not a negative impact. Again this is tied however due to preference.


The strongest impact my adversary had was champion purchases

8) Champion purchase

This is asserting that you can counter pick other champions if you invest enough money into the game. Which is somewhat true but he fails to consider how this is offset by runes and masteries, free champion rotations, and overall skill. You have a great deal of positive being done from the purchases such as the amount of money leagues makes from them. The money that is made goes into making the game and the competitive scene better, while you have a slight annoyance with the fact you can dump money into champions to counter pick other people.

Overall this basically negates itself

As you have a positive impact weighing in because of money being invested back in the game to improve it
and a negative impact such as people buying champs to counter pick.

Where this argument is tied is that when weighing both impacts you also have to factor in , that even if a champion is counter picked you can still optimize runes and masteries to make the lane fair.


When considering the overall scheme of this debate, I urge you to vote my side

1) Leagues has a more complex strategic element that allows people to build and customize champions along with thousands of different build paths.

2) It has far more play making champions that open up flashy plays.

3) Even my adversary notes that the competitive is greater in leagues, and more people prefer it. It has more funding, and more events that are spectated on a regular basis.

4) The amount of funding that goes into leagues from skins, character name changes, and overall the mass amount of users opens the game up for further updates and improvements that dota will never have.

Overall I fear this debate goes in my favor, but I would like to thank valkrin for a fun and unique debate
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Shadowguynick 2 years ago
I'm gonna keep from voting due to sheer bias but good debate from both of you. Still think league is better though :P
Posted by Valkrin 2 years ago
As well, only a handful of people have Curse voice. I covered this point in my previous argument.

People that can dance in and out of fights in Dota 2 are also high in number:
Queen of Pain
Ember Spirit
Keeper of the Light

And more. If you look at the wiki you can see many heroes have juke potential, and complex kits as well.
Posted by Valkrin 2 years ago
Workshop itself requires a download of Blender to make the models, but simply voting on the models to be put in game requires no downloading whatsoever.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Commondebator 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro didn't rebut many of con's points. Basically saying that league of legends is more complex. I didn't really see many convincing arguments from pro and con won me over.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Interesting. PRO concedes major points in his argument when he essentially concedes that LoL is a more complex game. From this, we can deduce that LoL has more immersion. This also explains its large player base. Though I would contend it is due to the fact it is free... Anyway... PRO really offers no convincing evidence that Dota is a superior gaming platform. CON also spent a lot of character space explaining the interface and contrasting it with Dota. For people who have never played either game (I played LoL for maybe 1 hour) this description really benefits the reader. I vote con.
Vote Placed by YYW 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: As an initial disclosure, I'm biased to PRO because I've only ever played DotA. I've never played League, but I know a lot of people who have. So, PRO says he should win because CON's (a) dropped arguments, (b) arguments were invalid. This is totally a subjective thing, so I'm not really sure what he's talking about re: invalid arguments. Basically this is all "blind assertion," to use PRO's term. I also disagree that CON failed to prove that League was better. CON talked about a lot of the game's features, interface and the like which he contrasted with DotA, and as between them I think CON is more persuasive that League is better and I don't think PRO really did.