The Instigator
griffinisright
Con (against)
Winning
63 Points
The Contender
shlh1514
Pro (for)
Losing
19 Points

Drinking and smoking are sins.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/14/2008 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,519 times Debate No: 1772
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (32)
Votes (26)

 

griffinisright

Con

NOTE: I would like to debate a fellow Christian on this topic so we are not comparing apples to oranges.
I believe there are many assumed truths that are ruining modern day Christianity as we know it. One of the biggest ones is that drinking and smoking are sins. I have contemplated this issue for quite some time, In fact for a long time I fell for the false ideology myself. However after thumbing through the bible and researching the topic through other books I have come to the conclusion that drinking and smoking are not sins! These kinds of assumptions make Christians look stupid. After all If drinking and smoking are sins wouldn't that mean that everyone who drinks or smokes regularly is going to Hell because they are constantly separating them from God? Sadly this kind of a notion is a common misconception that many closed minded Christians come up with and it does nothing but turn people off to Christianity as a whole. Although I know these Christians have good intentions, most of the time their stupidity ends up doing more harm then good. So it is my wish to debate any Christian who disagrees with me so I can prove to them and the rest of the world that drinking and smoking are not sins. Hopefully this will also help distinguish the idea that all Christians are closed minded and stupid. And maybe just maybe make Christians stop and think before they go and assume something as dumb as this again. Because at the end of they day we all know what Assuming does to people. It makes an A$S out of yoU and ME (D)! And I am sick of stupid Christians making an a$s out of me. So there fore I want to put an end to this ridiculous notion that is harming the church.
shlh1514

Pro

This debate is great because it challenges the bible, which I believe is true to its word. Really drinking isn't really a sin because in the New World Translation Bible (used by the Jehovah Witnesses') in Titus 2:2 it states that: 2 Let the aged men be moderate in habits, serious, sound in mind, healthy in faith, in love, in endurance. 3 Likewise let the aged women be reverent in behavior, not slanderous, neither enslaved to a lot of wine, teachers of what is good; or in 1 Timothy 3:2,3,8,9 that: 2 The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3 not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 8 Ministerial servants should likewise be serious, not double-tongued, not giving themselves to a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, 9 holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience.

It clearly states that drinking alcohol isn't a sin, but drinking too much is. In Ephesians 5:18 states that: 18 Also, do not be getting drunk with wine, in which there is debauchery, but keep getting filled with spirit, or in Proverbs 23:20,21 put in perspective: 20 Do not come to be among heavy drinkers of wine, among those who are gluttonous eaters of flesh. 21 For a drunkard and a glutton will come to poverty, and drowsiness will clothe one with mere rags.

This shows that being a drunk person can be sinned for.

It also shows how drinking in moderation is good for the person is good. In Psalms 104:15 it proves that: 15 And wine that makes the heart of mortal man rejoice,
To make the face shine with oil,
And bread that sustains the very heart of mortal man

And In the bible (1 Corinthians 6:9,10) how the Jehovah will not accept and drunks to his kingdom.

9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God's kingdom.

Well that covers the drinking problem.
http://www.watchtower.org...
or go to http://www.watchtower.org...

Really smoking isn't stated exactly in the bible if it is a sin or not.

SMOKING is not for those who want to live a long and happy life. The probability that a long-term smoker will eventually be killed by tobacco is 1 in 2. The director-general of the World Health Organization (WHO) stated: "A cigarette is . . . a cleverly crafted product that delivers just the right amount of nicotine to keep its user addicted for life before killing the person."

One reason, then, to quit smoking is that smoking tobacco endangers health and life. Smoking has been linked to more than 25 life-threatening diseases. It is, for example, a major contributor to heart attack, stroke, chronic bronchitis, emphysema, and various cancers, especially lung cancer.

Of course, a person may smoke for years before being stricken with one of these diseases. Meanwhile, smoking does not make a person more appealing to others. Advertising portrays smokers as glamorous and healthy. The reality is different. Smoking makes the breath stink and stains teeth and fingers a yellowish-brown. In men it contributes to impotence. It causes smoker's cough and shortness of breath. Smokers are also more likely to experience premature facial wrinkling and other skin problems.

The Bible says: "You must love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:39) Love for your neighbors—and your family members are your closest neighbors—is a powerful reason to quit.

Smoking hurts others. Until recent times a smoker could light up just about anywhere and expect no objection. But attitudes are changing because more people understand the dangers of breathing in smoke that drifts from the cigarettes of others. For example, a nonsmoker who is married to a smoker has a 30-percent greater risk of developing lung cancer than if he or she were married to a nonsmoker. Children who live with parents who smoke are more likely to develop pneumonia or bronchitis in the first two years of life than are children who live in homes where no one smokes.

Hooked Early
A study in the United States showed that 1 in 4 young people who tried cigarettes eventually became addicted. This was similar to the addiction rate of those who experimented with cocaine and heroin. Though about 70 percent of adolescent smokers regret having started, few are able to quit.

Pregnant women who smoke endanger their unborn babies. Nicotine, carbon monoxide, and other dangerous chemicals contained in cigarette smoke enter the mother's bloodstream and pass directly to the child in the womb. The consequences include a greater likelihood of spontaneous abortion, stillbirth, and death among newborns. Moreover, the risk of sudden infant death syndrome is three times higher for babies whose mothers smoked during pregnancy.

The Cost Is High
Another reason to quit is that smoking is expensive. A study by the World Bank estimated that the health-care costs caused directly by smoking amount to about $200 billion each year. That figure, of course, does nothing to convey the cost in suffering and pain to those who contract diseases caused by tobacco.
What Is in Cigarette Smoke?
Cigarette smoke contains tar, consisting of over 4,000 chemicals. Of these chemicals, 43 are known to cause cancer. Among them are cyanide, benzene, wood alcohol, and acetylene (a fuel used in torches). Cigarette smoke also contains nitrogen oxide and carbon monoxide, both poisonous gases. Its main active ingredient is nicotine, a highly addictive drug.

Benefits of Quitting
Suppose you are a long-term smoker. What happens when you quit? Within 20 minutes of your last cigarette, your blood pressure will drop to normal. After a week your body will be free of nicotine. After one month your coughing, sinus congestion, fatigue, and shortness of breath will begin to decrease. After five years your risk of dying from lung cancer will have dropped by 50 percent. After 15 years your risk of coronary heart disease will fall to that of a person who has never smoked at all.

Your food will taste better. Your breath, body, and clothing will smell better. You will no longer have the trouble or the expense of buying tobacco. You will have a feeling of accomplishment. If you have children, your example will reduce the likelihood that they will be smokers. You will likely live longer. Further, you will be acting in harmony with God's will, since the Bible says: "Let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of [the] flesh." (2 Corinthians 7:1) Don't feel that it is too late for you to quit; the sooner you quit, the better.

To read more got to http://www.watchtower.org... because I can't fit it in.
Really drinking or smoking aren't sins (not sure for somking.)
Debate Round No. 1
griffinisright

Con

First of all I would agree with you this is a very good debate and I respect and appreciate all the time and thought you put into this topic. However I must say I disagree with you on some of the conclusions you made. Other points you made I find actually helpful to my cause for instance, I compiled a list of a few points you borough out in your opening argument in regards to drinking. Here are a few... "neither enslaved to a lot of wine, teachers... moderate in habits, sound... not a drunken brawler, not a... not giving themselves to a lot of wine,...

I believe the key theme in all of these is EXCESSIVE or too much. You would seem to agree with me, however some Christians would not. My hope was to debate one of the people who would disagree with me on both topics (drinking and smoking). You don't seem to though after all you have rightfully put it "It clearly states that drinking alcohol isn't a sin, but drinking too much is." and again "Ephesians 5:18, This shows that being a drunk person can be sin..." This much is true after all there is a fine line between drinking and getting drunk. We are going to call this line, moderation.

Lets also take into account the fact that many Doctors have said that drinking a glass of wine everyday is healthy for your heart. So drinking in MODERATION can be beneficial to you! I stand by my word. Drinking is not a sin. For those who would believe it is consider the fact that arguably the most influential Christian author of our day who wrote the Narnia series drinks. That's right if you want to talk to C.S. Lewis about the Lord you will probably have to do it over a pint of Beer in an English pub near Lewis home. Can you picture Lewis sitting in a bar across from one of his friends like, J.R.R. Tolkien (who helped lead Lewis to Christ by the way) discussing the things of God over a drink? Cause it is not a rare occasion for them to do that. Also let us not forget that Jesus drink wine not only did he drink it but he MAD IT AS WELL! The truth of the matter is the Bible never says "don't drink." What it does say is, "do not be a drunkard." Or, "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18 KJV) There for it is up to you to moderate yourself.

Now onto smoking. First off I want to make it clear that I am not a smoker. I felt as though a good bit of your article was spent trying to convince me to quit something I am not doing. I have never been a smoker and I have no desire to smoke now. Personally I think the smell of it is disgusting and I have no longing for lung Cancer either so I choose not to smoke. However my personal thoughts on the matter do not matter for they are strictly opinionated and my opinion certainly doesn't decipher what is or isn't a sin. But I have some interesting news for you. Have you ever heard of Charles Spurgeon? If not Charles was a Baptist preacher who God used extensively in England. His teachings are even often quoted today in Baptist churches in the U.S. on a weekly basis. The fact the he was a very devout follower of Jesus Christ is undeniable. It is equally indisputable that Charles Spurgeon SMOKED CIGARS! Many times WHILE PREACHING! When confronted on the matter he said he smoked in moderation. When the questioners asked him to explain what he meant by "moderation" he said, "Well I don't smoke two at a time,"

Many Christians today get their panties all up in a knot about smoking without taking time to realize that the Bible says nothing about it. So we are stuck using logic to decipher ware this gray area fits. However many of these fanatic Christians do not bring up gluttony which we have more problems with in the U.S. than smoking when it comes to health problems. All BS aside I know pastors who don't drink or smoke but they have serious weight problems! So if you or they are going to use the "Your body is a temple" catch phrase to prove your case you better take a look into the mirror the next time you walk by one because there are many "temples" that have some additional rooms that were not there in the original structural design!

Now don't try accusing me of being judgmental or say that I am trying to justify something. I am not I am merely trying to make a point that we as a culture have decided NOT to take gluttony as seriously as other "sins" of overabundance. A lack of moderation is what we are dealing with here. How about dessert? There is nothing healthy about a hot fudge sundae! NOTHING! I would say the nutritious value is about equivalent to that of smoking crack! Its only purpose is for enjoyment and pleasure. It is high in fat and overloaded with sugar. It is not debatable that, a sundae does nothing of good for the temple. In fact people often joke around about how it is sinfully good!

The point I am trying to make here is that sin isn't always what we think it is. There are many things that need to be taken into account such as the motive which I will try to go into a little more in my next and last debate. As a lead in I noticed you said, "Meanwhile, smoking does not make a person more appealing to others." I disagree, smoking may not be appealing to some or even MOST people but to another smoker, a smoker could be exactly what they are looking for in someone to talk to and or relate to. Again I will go into more depth about that in my next debate. I am just lacking the time and free space to go into details about this so stay tuned. In conclusion I believe that when it all comes down to it the problem is that our Christian culture(in the U.S.) has decided to label such things as drinking and smoking as sin based on their thoughts on the matter. Based on the fact that they dont like it. All I am trying to say here is turning something into a "sin" simply because YOU don't like it doesn't suddenly make it BIBLICALLY accurate.
shlh1514

Pro

OMG I didn't know I was PRO damn, really it was a mistake that some of the articles are taking about smoking. Well then back to the debate. Well then I now show that drinking isn't a sin, but it can lead to sins. It can lead to adultry (cheating on wife or premarital sex) or other things. Drinking leads to want to drink more (Borracho) drunk. Smoking said to me by my congregation is a sin, because smoking takes away your life which is a sin.
Debate Round No. 2
griffinisright

Con

It is to bad you didn't realize your stance on the topic until now. I would have rather debated someone who disagrees with me on both issues, but never the less. I make my closing points. As Pro has stated drinking CAN lead to sins. But drinking in it self is not necessarily a sin. Neither is smoking for that matter. Our culture has decided that drinking and smoking are sins and we, as the great American Christian sheeple have fallen for it. I understand not all Christians have fallen for this ideology but many have. Some Christians go to the extend of labeling smokers sinners and calling them out on it. Some have condemned people for having an alcoholic beverage in their home. Or for going out to drink at a bar, pub, club or other places ware alcohol is served. This method is not only wrong but it gives all Christians a bad name due to our secular world view that creates wrong full stereo types.

I would ask any person who disagrees with me to think about this scenario. Someone moves into your neighborhood from a culture such as England ware drinking is an every day social event. They come to your house and knock on your door and invite you out to the bar for a few drinks so they can spend some time getting to know you. And you say, "Sorry, I am a Christian and I do not believe in drinking, there fore I will not and can not go thanks any way."
So your new neighbors go to another one of your Christian neighbors houses and invites them along to the bar for some drinks so they can be acquainted. The Christian neighbor says yes, and tags along to the bar. They have a few drinks and Then the Christian asks the English neighbor of his, to tell him a little about his life and he goes on about this and that. Then the Englishmen asks the same to his Christian neighbor. The Christian neighbor goes on about his life and then proceeds to tell his new friend about Jesus, or invites him to church next Sunday or for an ice cream social or any number of events.

I ask any one who dis agrees with me which neighbor was the better neighbor which one was the better witness. The Christian who said "sorry I am a Christian and I do not believe in drinking" or the one who said, "yes"?

How can you effectively witness to someone without being able to get on the same page as them? Or without relating to them. I am not saying go out and get plastered. That will not help any but maybe if you go out and have a drink or two then the tow of you can connect. Maybe they will accept Christ maybe not either way you tired. Just realise we cant always expect non believers to meet us in Church ware we are. Sometimes we have to go to ware they are.

Now I realize there are some Christians who may have been former alcoholics and they cant have just one drink without having another and another and winding up trashed. But just because it is wrong for you doesn't mean it is wrong for the rest of us.

I want to try to wind up my argument here because I don't want to go on and on.(because believe me I could) But something that has always struck me as a good way to decipher what is wrong or not has always come down to the method or the intention behind it. I mean I can TP a friends house in the name of fun and games knowing he will get over it and that is not wrong or sinful. But I can not TP someone's house with the INTENTION of pissing them off. That is wrong. So if your intending is to go out and get drunk when you go drinking you are sinning if you are doing it to piss off or offend someone around you you are wrongfully drinking and I would even go to the extent of saying you are sinning but if you mean no harm and you cause no harm and the bible doesn't say anything about it then it isn't anyone else's business and you are not sinning. It all comes back to MODERATION and INTENTIONS! and that is the bottom line.
Thank you all for considering my thoughts. It was a pleasure debating you shlh1514 even though it wasn't much of a debate considering your misunderstanding. Good luck in your future debates.

-Sin is not always what we think it is-
shlh1514

Pro

Thanks for the debate and it was good and really make this debate 4 or 5 rounds at least.

Well you said that "Now I realize there are some Christians who may have been former alcoholics and they cant have just one drink without having another and another and winding up trashed" My how doesn't know he's alcoholic, he drinks all the time for 12 years, joined the Jehovah Witnesses was a preacher ,but in one month he gave and turn back to a drinker. Not putting this to a point, but people that can control maybe 5-10% can stop, but many people can't stop. Really hard to put down a beer or Vodka. But people drinking and driving can lead to DUI, DWI, or manslaughter (crash) or Assault, rape, murder, and more.
Debate Round No. 3
32 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ironduke 9 years ago
Ironduke
If you feel that helps your self esteem.
Posted by sadolite 9 years ago
sadolite
When I was a kid, I had one of those wind up jack-in-boxes that pop open when that little tune is over, Someone put a peyote button encased in epoxy resin in the clowns mouth. I never new what it was until years later, but I'll never forget it. Oh! was I thinking out loud? NEVER MIND!
Posted by Ironduke 9 years ago
Ironduke
First of all, The Peace pipe was a North American Indian tradition. It did not exist in Roman Jerusalem. And all things in moderation. Don't let it control you. That is my stance. And whoever did the liberal comment, you really should wonder about your sanity or something anyway. It isn't normal.
Posted by toria_2metal 9 years ago
toria_2metal
your absolutely right, (: (: (:
your so smarT!!
Posted by mikelwallace 9 years ago
mikelwallace
Stay classy? How about saying the Savior that Christians worship and consider sacred smoked a peace pipe and got all the chicks? Is that not classless and disrespectful? You come across as a hyppocrite with this one. How about you show some respect for others beliefs and support your "opinions" with some tiny shred of truth or evidence.
Posted by griffinisright 9 years ago
griffinisright
I dont know what the below convorcations have anything to do with this debate, But I had to laugh when I read what Mike Wallace said. "Just throw in whatever opinion you want without any factual evidence or foundation at all whatsoever...are you a liberal?"

Mike you are my new role model. Ha-ha
Posted by toria_2metal 9 years ago
toria_2metal
dont be so childish
stay classy WALLACE (:
Posted by mikelwallace 9 years ago
mikelwallace
HAHA!!! "I dont need facts to back up my stance...and yes I am a liberal" Case closed ladies and gentleman! This is why liberals are never right. This one was funny.
Posted by toria_2metal 9 years ago
toria_2metal
oh get over yourself, i am entitled to my opinion.
and i dont believe in the new testament, im not that closed minded. Jesus was a true pimp he got all the ladies, and yah i do believe he smoked the peace pipe. I dont need facts to back up my own stand in this situation and yes i am a liberal.
Posted by toria_2metal 9 years ago
toria_2metal
oh get over yourself, i am entitled to my opinion.
and i dont believe in the new testament, im not that closed minded. Jesus was a true pimp he got all the ladies, and yah i do believe he smoked the peace pipe. I dont need facts to back up my own stand in this situation and yes i am a liberal.
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