The Instigator
cjet79
Pro (for)
Losing
29 Points
The Contender
beem0r
Con (against)
Winning
34 Points

EVE online is the best MMO

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/9/2008 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,596 times Debate No: 1623
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (18)

 

cjet79

Pro

With an amazing and original skill system that forces casual and hardcore players to train at the same pace, a new beautiful graphics engine, a fun and challenging PvP system, an interesting backstory, the single largest MMO server with as many as 35,000 players online at one time, and player driven economy EVE online is the best MMO out there.
beem0r

Con

I'd like to say that I, too, was with you on this a short time ago. However, a few key realizations have made me change my mind.

First, I'll respond to each statement of yours:

>>With an amazing and original skill system<<
I wouldn't say it's "amazing." The skills system discourages you from using multiple characters by only allowing you to train one skill across your entire account. The skill system makes you as powerful as the amount of time you've been playing, which, oddly enough, is directly proportional to the amount of money you've paid CCP. While this is good from their perspective, it's not good from the perspective of a player. It sucks for new players, since they know they'll ever be able to become "uber." This is the goal of many MMO players. It sucks for veterans because they're forced into keeping their subscription just because they don't want to throw away all that time spent skill training.

>>that forces casual and hardcore players to train at the same pace<<
This only means that the veterans will always be ahead of those who came after them. It seems you wanted this statement to establish some kind of equality, but it only highlights the _perpetual_ inequality between veterans and newer players.

>>a new beautiful graphics engine<<
It does look good, but the color banding is truly annoying. See this for what I mean:
http://fm.dureiku.org...
View it at full size (you might have to click it once it loads) and look at the entire right side of the screen. Keep in mind, I'm using the highest quality settings on 1920x1200. I should not be seeing such noticeable color banding.
Either way, the graphics _are_ great. they're about on par for space games, which always tend to look awesome (freelancer, X3:reunion, etc.)

>>a fun and challenging PvP system<<
Like most MMO's, the outcome of a battle is based largely on who has better skills and equipment. Not game-playing skills, ingame skills for your character. This is amplified by the fact that you don't directly control your ship (via WASD or other means) but instead order your ship to move to places. It comes down to who has the time invested to get the helpful skills, and who has the ISK (money) to buy the good ships and equips. This is not challenging, nor would I say it's fun.

>>an interesting backstory<<
Perhaps it's interesting, but the lore of EVE pales in comparison to other MMO's - WoW, Guild Wars, probably FFXI, etc.
In addition to not having the most interesting backstory, it has the LEAST interesting ingame story. Since the universe is largely player-based, there really is no major story. Backstory is the only story this game has.

>>the single largest MMO server with as many as 35,000 players online at one time<<
This does not affect how good of a game it is.

>>and player driven economy EVE online is the best MMO out there.<<
Player-driven economies have their advantages and disadvantages. They encourage ISK-sellers, since it's easy to get ISK once you have ISK in a player-driven economy.
Prices tend to be unrealistic, since players are very unlikely to buy that 2nd-best battlecruiser. Unlike in real life, people need the best they can get.
Also, a player-driven economy doesn't make the game any more fun. And I think that's what we all play games for - entertainment.

And now my offense:

EVE online is simply boring. With no active story, no direct ship control, and the most repetitive gameplay in a modern-day MMO, there's no way any other MMO could touch the boring level of EVE. Guild Wars and WoW both beat it overall, since they have real storyline, real control, and a real, lore-based goal. Sure, these games might become repetitive once you've beaten the game, but it takes a lot longer than it takes EVE to get repetitive, which is almost immediately.
Debate Round No. 1
cjet79

Pro

Skills-
If you have played EVE then you know how the skill system works. To actually gain perfection in a skill the skill takes a longer time to train each level you go up. New Players can quickly catch up with older players by training the lower level skills. They may not become "uber" but anyone trying to achieve that goal in EVE knows the best way is not through skills. A group of cheap frigates can take on a Battleship if they know what they are doing. A friend who started at about the same time as me was in a battleship in three months and good PvP in 5 months.

addiction/subscription-
Every MMO has the allure of keeping your subscription to avoid losing your hard earned character. The only way to convert that back into something is sell the character on ebay. Thats not an EVE specific problem...so when considering it for the best MMO i wouldnt say its an issue. Plus EVE is one of the MMO's i know of that allows players a secure method of paying for their subscription with in game money (isk). Only half of my time spent in game has been paid for by cash.

Graphics-
They only updated stations, spaceships, and a couple other things. The color banding is still part of the old graphics engine. Which will be updated soon.

PvP-
Yeah its not always fun...but the threat of actually losing something of value always makes things a bit more exciting. The challenge of fighting in isk is how you arm and equip your ship. What you choose to fly, who you fly with, and what you put on your ship can varry drastically depending on what you want to do. There is no one size fits all setup for any ship in eve. Gang dynamics change setup, low security vs zero space changes setup, mission running changes setup, and corp wars change setup.
EVE is certainly not a challenge when it comes to shooting. It's way of being challenging is not like halo or other first person shooters. The challenge comes from having the right strategy and being able to outsmart your opponent.

Backstory-
touche...im just a fan of sci-fi so i guess i prefer it more to the fantasy stuff of WoW, Guild wars, and FFXI.

server size-
it adds a lot more depth to the game. Only one server forces people to fight over the resources on that server. This is what makes EVE such a unique game. Those huge alliances that have arisen in zero space to fight for and claim territory. No multi-server MMO currently supports anything like that.

player driven economy-
the people who drive the economy get a lot out of that. Becoming a regional economic mogul is just another one of the options in the game. The fact that prices drop to levels where most players can afford things is what happens in real economies. And driving down prices has meant that less isk...and therefore less work is required to fly the best ships. But your ability to lose those ships remains the same no matter how much isk you have.

entertainment value-
I think the entertainment gained from a game is largely subjective. But the more options there are available the more people can play the game and find it enjoyable. EVE has a huge number of options for players. There is no set path as there are in other games. EVE is a sandbox MMO with a steep learning curve. There are hundreds of ways to enjoy the game you just have to put in a little perseverance and creativity. If you want the scripted experience of other MMOs then i agree...eve is not for you.
beem0r

Con

Skills:
You say new players can simply 'learn the lower levels,' but I see two problems here.
First, many skills require level 4 or 5 of other skills as pre-requisites. Thus, only training low-level skills will not be possible.
Second, lower level skills are worse. We're now, like I said, making characters as good as their lifespan. Not how many hours the guy actually PLAYED, but how long he's been paying his subscription fee.
I put 10 hours into the game in one day, I can't really do anything. Another guy puts 10 hours into the game over the course of a week, he's way better than I am. This is a ridiculous scheme that encourages not actually playing. If I'm paying 15 bucks per month for something, it should at least be able to entertain me for hours on end like other MMO's.

Addiction/subscription:
The problem I had was not that it's addicting, since it's not. It's that regardless of the fact that there's not mch reason to play for more than an hour or two a day, they still manage to have such strong incentives to keep paying them money. Instead of paying for the time you play the game, you pay for the time you go about your day with a skill training in the background.
Also, not ALL MMO's do this. Guild Wars, for example, is largely skill-based. You can max out a character in less than a week easily. However, people still keep playing. Why? Because it's fun. Not, as is the case for many MMO's like EVE, for the sake of their hard-earned character.

Graphics:
It matters not whether they're going to release an updated pack to fix the color banding. Why? Because we're debating whether EVE online IS the best MMO, not if it will be. The fact is, the graphics are par for a space game. Maybe even sub.

PvP:
It's not so much about outsmarting your opponent in battle, but about the strategy you use in equipping your ship. After that, you pretty much just have to decide who to target with what, what distance to maintain, and when to use special ship modules like shield boosters or warp disruptors. The 'excitement' is somewhat limited, considering the extremely low amount of user input.

Backstory:
Nothing to rebut here.

Server size:
It's true that no other mainstream MMO has people literally fighting over resources for their guild/alliance. But does this uniqueness make it good? I could also say "WoW is the only mainstream MMO where you fight other players simply because they're on the other side." (alliance vs. horde)
This does not make WoW the best MMO, neither does your observation make EVE the best.

Player driven economy:
The people who drivethe economy get a lot out of that? Do they truly enjoy mindlessly mining for hours on end? Mindlessly hauling ore for a mining corporation-mate? These are the people who really 'drive' the economy, and they don't do it for the fun. They do it for the ISK. A game is not good if you're not playing for fun. These people should regret that they're part of a player-run economy. It's like having a job in the game in addition to real life. People play games to get away from having to do droning, mindless work all day.

Entertainment:
Make-your-own game? Or not. No matter how hard I try, I can't make the game have a meaningful story. The 'scripted' experience of other MMO's (and all other RPG's) is scripted for a reason - without being 'scripted,' there is no story, and the player is left feeling perpetually unaccomplished.

I see you didn't address the lack of interactive controls. This is the game's biggest weakness, so I don't blame you. This is likely a limitation due to their single server. It takes a lot more information to track movement in a fluid player-controlled space sim.

I'll end with that for now.
Debate Round No. 2
cjet79

Pro

Skills-
Again EVE takes some patience, and planning. Within a couple months a new player could be running the hardest most profitable missions, and ten hours a day would make him incredibly rich.
EVE rewards players who stick around a long time with more skills. It rewards players who play more often with more assets, and probably more power as they will make more friends in the game. To place all the rewards at one end of the spectrum or the other doesn't seem like good game design to me. I rarely ever want to play EVE or any other MMO ten hours straight. With EVE your subscription is not a waste if you don't play the game much because you still make progress.

subscription-
Many players have found it very addictive, and kept up their subscriptions. Paying for skill training makes perfect sense...you pay to improve your character. Only dedicated players can stick with EVE, which is why its such a strong MMO. Improving a character is part of the fun...it is not a detraction from the fun.

Graphics-
The actual ships, stations, and other updated graphics are the heart of the game. Complaining about the background is the same as saying the water graphics in WoW aren't good. I play many space games...the only one that beats EVE is the new game "Sins of a Solar Empire". Which is a Bran new game. And again as you reminded yourself we are talking about MMO's and in comparison to the graphics of a game like WoW EVE is a clear winner.

PvP-
We are in agreement...EVE is a game that requires strategy. But having a better strategy then your opponent IS outsmarting them. If you can adapt to a situation that you did not expect and survive then that is outsmarting your opponent.

Server Size-
Fighting over resources forces players to play more wisely. It forces players to join with others when they want to earn the really big bucks. EVE's massive server acts in a way to make joining with others more profitable then going at it alone. It may not make it the best or "better", but it is different then every other MMO. Especially guild wars where once you leave the City you are basically in your own little world...its hardly an MMO when fighting the computer. So the server size makes EVE more realistic.

Player driven economy-
I'm guessing you were a miner for your short time in EVE...That's understandable most people go into that. But no you missed my point about running the economy. When you have enough isk or if you train the right market skills you can place large buy orders at cheap prices for common loot items. People will sell these to you one at a time because its not worth their trouble to do anything else. And you gather a large inventory of items that you can resell at a higher price or reprocess for minerals.
Mining is a reliable way to make isk, and one of the safest if you stay in high security. But it is also a very slow way to make isk. New players are often forced into this role, because their combat skills wont get them anywhere. But it takes only a solid month of training to get into a decent combat ship, and start running missions. Doing the best missions will get you an average of 30 million isk in the same amount of time it takes the best mining ship to get about 2-5 million isk in minerals.

Entertainment-
again its a matter of opinion...if you like creating your own goals or not living by some pre-determined standard then EVE is your game. Otherwise you are right WoW and Guild wars are good alternatives.

The lack of controls is not much of a major drawback for me. I don't play EVE to shoot stuff...i don't know who does play MMOs to shoot stuff...there are much better first person shooter games like halo 3 or call of duty 4 out there. EVE is about forging your own path through a well thought out strategy, and a solid dedication to achieving your goals.

One thing we didn't mention before is the Community.
EVE has a rather tough unforgiving environment which has tended to weed out gamers with no stomach for losing big. You don't get smack-talked when you are killed...you can trust PIRATES because they know if they aren't honest they get hunted down by other pirates. I mean if that doesn't say a lot about a game i don't know what does. When you can trust the people everyone hates the most...you have a solid community. The community has also shown their appreciation for the EVE developers...voting EVE the best MMO again this year on MMORPG.com. New players are almost guaranteed to find corporations that will gladly accept them into their ranks no matter what their skills are. If they choose not to join a corporation then players are always helpful in local.
beem0r

Con

Skills-
You say that 'The best way to become uber is not through skills,' but this is utterly false. Skills (often high levels of them) are required for good equipment. Skills (often high levels of them) are required for good ships. Skills can increase your ship's power/CPU output, allowing you to equip better equipment on the same ship. Skills can increase the effectiveness of your guns - optimal range, damage output, firing speed, capacitor use, rocket velocity, etc. Skills can increase the defensive capabilities of your ship - hull/structure strength, shield strength, shield recharge rate, etc. Ship X can be worlds better simply based on the skills the player has. Skills are extremely important, and new players, regarless of how dedicated they are to the game, cannot learn skills any faster than the guy who logs in just to change what skill he's training. They are also at a permanent disadvantage to veterans - regardless of how dedicated these veterans are at playing.

Subscription-
You say that improving your character is part of the fun - I would say this is true for all other MMO's, but not EVE. In EVE, "improving your character" is usually done while not even at your computer. The player has no active part in the development of his character. The player has no reason to be proud, since the improvement did not come about through some difficult battle, but simply by time. Earning your improvements is much more fun.

Graphics-
You say that complaining about how space looks n a space game is like complaining about the water in WoW. However, this is utterly false. If WoW was an underwater MMO, that might be a valid comparison. If it was, I would definitely expect its water to be top quality, not some sub-par 16-bit texture. Eve does not win against other MMO's in graphics, simply because the bulk of the game - space - does not look good. Also, many space games have graphics comparable or better than EVE. X3: reunion definitely does.

PvP-
The bulk of the battle is decided beforehand by who has what equipped. Realtime strategy (which is implemented by means of indirect, bulky controls) is really only important in making sure you're a good rage from your enemy for your weapons to hit him. Unlike other MMO's, EVE doesn't have a wide array of skills (active skills, like spells). Skills of this sort add a huge amount of strategy to PvP, and they're what make almost all other MMO's better than EVE when it comes to PvP. In EVE, the strategy is lArgely "which weapons should I fire at which enemies, and where should I tell my ship to fly." Then, you basically have to wait. If there's one game a bot could easily master, it's EVE.

Server size-
You've agreed that this doesn't make EVE better than other MMO's.
Also, Guild Wars effectively has one server (for each region of the world, at least). Places besides towns are 'instances,' much like the instances in WoW. It makes quests a lot more meaningful, since you won't have other players not in your party hunting the same boss right next to you, then waiting for it to spawn. I suppose EVE doesn't really suffer from this, since there aren't really bosses or really any important story mobs, due to the utter lack of a storyline.

Player-driven economy-
You apparently don't understand the EVE economy yourself. Mining is widely considered the most profitable profession. In fact, this is really the only way it could be, since if it wasn't, no one would mine. Mining sucks, there's absolutely no fun involved. It's the only way new resources get into the economy as well, so at least a certain percentage HAVE to mine. Otherwise, you won't be able to buy that ship or that weapon, since the materials needed for it aren't around.
So basically, mining sucks, it's the most profitable, and your claim of 6-15 times more money being made by doing missions at the same level is dangerously wrong. If this were the case, people wouldn't mine, until the prices went up enough that mining WAS the best way to make money.

Entertainment-
I'd wager that most people play games to enjoy a scripted experience, to follow their characters through a storyline. If they wanted an open-ended experience where they set their own goals, they would simply get back to the real world.

Controls-
The controls are a major drawback for many gamers. Gamers like to claim they have skillz. In EVE, you can't be a good pilot or a bad pilot, you're just as good as anyone else. In EVE, you can't be good at operating weapons, you're just as good as everyone else. Instead of the player's skillz coming into play, the character's skills, the ones that supposedly aren't what make a player uber according to my opponent, do. People play MMO's to feel like they're awesome, and EVE just doesn't fulfill most people there. It also makes it hard to feel like you are your character, or to role-play, in other words.

Community-
Then you bring up the community. You say you can 'trust' pirates, but just what is it you can trust them to do? Their job description involves killing you. The only thing you kind of said is that they're unlikely to talk smack after they kill you. Whoop dee do. You lost your ship, I don't think it matters if you get taunted afterwards.
Also, you say you can trust your average pirate, but I would say you can't even trust your average Joe. Due to the inability to allow someone access to your cargo containers (the only way to trade out in space), EVE has more scammers than any other game. Scamming is allowed as well. While this may seem cool at first, it loses its appeal when someone gets a bunch of friends to warp in and kill you once you open his cargo container. Also, 1v1's are often not respected. People often tell their friends to warp in and help when they're losing. the community, while it has its helpful members, is no better than that of any other MMO.

I believe my opponent has faled to show ANY area in which EVE online beats other MMO's. Even if he did, he's asserting that it's the best overall. I'm not saying I know which MMO is the best, but it's surely not EVE.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Xacto01 5 years ago
Xacto01
I lost credibility in the Con's debate when he made statements against EVE that weren't true or he doesn't have the playing experience as Deviant71 mentioned. Also, I would agree that saying EVE is the best mmorpg is a subjective statement. I would, however, gladly support labeling eve as the most advanced and unique mmorpg available.
Posted by Deviant71 6 years ago
Deviant71
Even as a fan of EVE-O, I wouldn't call it *the best* MMO because that is a term that has subjective criteria. In the case of arguing that it is one of the best based on game quality, community, features, support from the game developer etc, I believe Pro has made a much better argument. Con didn't seem to have the playing experience to be able to rebut properly.
Posted by geekygator 6 years ago
geekygator
I play Eve, and I would agree that it is one of the best MMOs. However, I think its also very much a niche game; you're either the type of person that plays Eve or you arn't. It doesn't appeal to your average gamer- and I'm not saying that is good or bad- I'm just saying its different. And I think that because it is a niche game, its not quite right to compare it to WoW or Guild Wars.
Posted by cjet79 6 years ago
cjet79
I don't feel like this debate is finished.
Posted by Renzzy 6 years ago
Renzzy
wow. i really wanted EVE online before i read con's argument. now i dont. well done, beem0r.
18 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by JBlake 5 years ago
JBlake
cjet79beem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Vote Placed by Xacto01 5 years ago
Xacto01
cjet79beem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Vote Placed by Tatarize 5 years ago
Tatarize
cjet79beem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by Deviant71 6 years ago
Deviant71
cjet79beem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by geekygator 6 years ago
geekygator
cjet79beem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by JUDGE 6 years ago
JUDGE
cjet79beem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by Aietius 6 years ago
Aietius
cjet79beem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Vote Placed by THEmanlyDEBATER3 6 years ago
THEmanlyDEBATER3
cjet79beem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by bigbass3000 6 years ago
bigbass3000
cjet79beem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Vote Placed by MarxistKid 6 years ago
MarxistKid
cjet79beem0rTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03