The Instigator
patriots16-0
Pro (for)
Losing
16 Points
The Contender
Pricetag
Con (against)
Winning
48 Points

EXSISTENCE OF GOD

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/10/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,229 times Debate No: 1644
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (15)
Votes (20)

 

patriots16-0

Pro

I would first like to start off with thanking raisor for debating me if he ecepts my challenge and that i will try my hardest against you.

part 1

if there is no God then who decides who is rite and who is wrong. Is it our concious? Is it the person who is in power over us, is that who we listen to. Well if it is the person who is in power over us then i guess it was ok for me to listen to Hitler or to Stallen because they were men who were in power. Oh yes they were in power killing people left in rite. And if you still think that you can judge what is rite and what is rong off of your concious then listen to this if you havnt already guessed it. It was STALLENS concious that had him kill a reporter for spelling his name wrong in the news paper. It was HITLERS conciouse that told him it was ok to kill 6,000,000 jews. So clearly we cant base it off our conciouse or the most powerful man at the time. We have to base it off a Supreme being some one who has dominion over all creatures.

part 2

Do you see how chotic it would be if there was no God. I mean there would alwys be 2 rites to 1 problem and thats what atheism does, they will say that Hitler is wrong but they will say he is wrong not because God judged him but because its just wrong to kill 6000000 jews. Well who said it was wrong to kill. You know Al Sharpton a guy I dont like vey much do to his viw on the war on terror and other things like that, did a pretty good job debating christopher hitchens. He asked Christopher hitchens the very Question i am about to ask you and if you ask any atheist this question all they do is avoid the question and start blaming Christians for the stuff they did in the past or the real stupid ones will just sit there an twidle there thumbs.

part 3

PLEASE ANSWER THE FALLOWING QUESTION IN YOUR DEBATE: If there is no God, no supreme being to judge Hitler then how do we Know what hitler did was wrong?
Pricetag

Con

In answer to your points:

There is no right or wrong answer ever. Each of us see things differently and have our own view of right and wrong. Although some of our ideas overlap, that in no way makes any "morals" absolute. I will say it, Hitler was not wrong in doing what he did. He was harmful, he was tyrannical, he was genocidal; however, he was not wrong because there is no such thing as right and wrong. We are justified in taking him out of power because of the harm he was doing to others and our will to see it stopped; however, that still does not mean that what he did was wrong. Think of it this way. We all have different ideas of what is right and what is wrong, what is "moral". These ideas change depending on religion, country, political system, political party, upbringing, environment, societal forces, and basically everything that we come in contact with. Since we all have different ideas on morals, how can any one set be right? The answer is that they can't and aren't. Therefore, again I say there is no such thing as morals.

However, in answer to the topic. You are for the existence of God because there must be something to judge others? That in no way fits the criteria of empirical evidence needed to prove the existence of a Deity. Prove to me that God exists and I'll be more willing to listen; however, your point like your morals are not absolute and prove nothing.
Debate Round No. 1
patriots16-0

Pro

Answering your question you say that all what i just said did not prove that there was a God. well actually it does prove that there is a God and I will tell you why later, But First let me Go over what you just said.

PART 1

You said: "there is no rite or wrong answere ever. Each of us thinks differently and have are on view of rite and wrong."

You know what you are rite about everybody having there own views and everybody thinking differently. But that does not mean that there is no rite or wrong answere. I think that it was WRONG that when the terroists came in on 9/11 and destroyed the 2 towers and killed 5000 inocent people i think that was WRONG. I belive that when Hitler killed 6000000 jews and the only thing they did was be Jewis, i think thats WRONG! I ihink that it is wrong that Stallen killed a reporter just because he spailed Stallens name wrong in the news paper I hope you have the principals to say all these things are wrong.

Part 2

Lets say i was a murder on the loose that escaped from prison and one night while your whole family was sleeping i broke into your house and stabbed them to death would you say that i did nothing wrong because because Hitler and stullen did the exact same things to families but sence you said "Hitler was not wrong in what he did." How can you say that these are the very things that you learned sence you were a boy that MURDER is wrong and now your saying 'Hitler was not wron in what he did".

Part 3

This is why God must be real because if he wasnt do you see the utter chaos that would go on no one would know who is rite and who is wrong the only thing we would be able to rely on is amn and he has fallen so many times in history . Thats why thwere has to be a perfect God one who is all knowing and all wisr one who is PERFECT. This is something we can base what is rite and what is wrong off of.

PART 4

You say in yor de bate that Hittler was not wrong well if he wasnt wron was America just wasting there time over there trying to free all the jews. Wate a second maby America should have thought about how hitller wasnt wrong in killin 6000000 jews maby they should have given poor little Hitler a chance to explain that no one can be wrong because there is no God ahhhhhh silly america. NO we went over there to get an evil man out of power and free those people.

Part 5

He can it be just ified of taking someone out of power if they did nothin wrong. So if Hitler did nothing wrong how is it justice that we took him out ok power you said he was harmful, genacidal and trynnacial but not wrong. How can you murder some one and not be wrong. You have toatly contridicted yourself.

PLEASE ANSWERE THE FALLOWING QUESTION IN THE DEBATE: Do you think 9/11 is wrong if no then what is wrong with you and if yes then who is the ultimate judge.
Pricetag

Con

First of all whenever quoting me please try to use the correct spelling and grammar.

Everyone justifies their own actions. They may use twisted logic such as Hitler who believed that Jews needed to be eradicated because he was heavily influenced by anti-Semites who painted Jews as the reason for Germany's ills. While their logic is flawed they believe themselves to be right. The majority of people obviously disagree with them. However, this does not mean that Hitler was right and it does not mean that he was wrong. It simply means he had a very dangerous idea that he justified and was able to justify to thousands of others (nazis). If we all can't agree on something that means it's not objective, it's subjective therefore, it can't be absolute. You treat these things that most agree are horrendous as absolute; however, if you spent anytime studying philosophy you would see that there are no absolutes. Everything is subjective. You put up many examples of the same idea which comes to the same point of "because most agree that something is wrong there must be a God". That is completely nonsensical. Yes there are some messed up things on the planet, that doesn't mean that there's a God. If anything that shows that there is NOT a God. If God is "perfect" as you claim then why is there such rampant evil. How can he stomach his creation being tortured, slaughtered, impoverished, oppressed, enslaved, diseased, et cetera. You may see that it is the work of the devil, but God created the devil so indirectly he is still responsible for these evils. You may say that it is the weakness of humans, then why did God make us so weak and ridden with evil. Either way you spin it God is responsible for all the ills of this world. How does that make him "perfect"? Try to justify that. That is my question, you answer me that.

In my mind 9/11 was horrible; however to the terrorists it was justified by our support for Israel, our troop presence in Saudi Arabia, our more or less "business" in the region, and their intense hatred for our entire culture. In that way if they can justify it and many others can justify their actions as well then how can you say that you have some absolute insight into what is right and wrong. What makes a life valuable? What makes property or privacy more important than security? Those are things we believe but that is not how all people feel therefore it is not an absolute truth. There is no right and wrong.
Debate Round No. 2
patriots16-0

Pro

PART 1

This is basic Stuff now all I want you to admitt is That Hitler and Stallen and The bombers of 911 are WRONG stop and listen to your self listen to what you are saying you are giving HITLER, STALLIN, THE BOMBERS OF 911 and now anybody who went and murdurd your family a pass out of jail or being able to stay in power. Do you think it was OK (not wrong) for Hitler to murder innocent people? When you say it is not wrong for him to do that you say he shouldnt have to go to jail because obviously only someone who didnt do something wrong cant go to jail. I think you know that it is wrong but you are so cot up in believing that GOD is not real that you have said something that maby you would regret if you were a Jew in Germany back in Worl War II or the reporter that Stallen killed, or the people on the plain that were haede towrds death, i dont know maby before you were abou to die you would repent. I mean how do you make it in life with that kind of thinking, what you are saying im sure your parents didnt teach you what Hitler did was not wrong.

PART 2

You say "If God is perfect then why is there so much rampent evil. How can he stomach his creation being tortured, slaughterd,improvised,opressed,enslaved,diseased ect. You may say that it is the work of the devil, but God created the devil indirctly he is still responsible for these eivles. You may say that it is the weakness of humans, then why did God make us so weak and ridden with evil. Either way you spin it God is responsible for all the ills of this world. How does that make him "perfect"? Try to justify that."

There is so much rampet eivil because of Adam and him eading the forbidden fruit. He can stomach this his creation being tortured because he is not human he is a supreme being to us. It is not the work of the devil it is the work of God because of the curse that Adam set on man kind God lets things happen such as the Hollicost and 911. You see God is responsible but that does not make him wrong, when a child does something wrong does that mean sence the parent grounds him the parent is wrong. NO!!

PART 3

How could we live in a world where there is no rite and no wrong no one would ever go to jail there would be murderurs and rapists, drug dealers, robbers, Sence there is no rite to anything and no wrong to anything i guess someone could go steel everything out of your house rape your mom kill your father and then burn your house and as lonas what he thought he was doing was all rite he couldnt be stoped or to jail for it. That is what you are implying when you say "evryone justifies there own actions." Do you under stand that you cant run a world like this or it would be toatal hell.

PART 4

This why God must exsist because there has to be someone to judge not hittler not the common people because what if the common people all thought that it was ok just to go out an kill a thousan socialists would that be rite. Something like that has been done before its called the Hollocost. I really do hope That you understand thi si one of the many reasons why God does and most exhist.

PLEASE ANSWERE THE FALLOWING QUESTION IN YES OR NO THEN EXPLAIN WHY SO FIRST IS YES OR NO THEN EXPLAIN: do you tink tat it is wron for a man to come in to your house rape your mom, kill your father, and then kid nap ypu for randsome? if yes why, if no why?
Pricetag

Con

They are NOT wrong because there is no such thing as wrong. Do you understand the term moral relativism? That is what I'm talking about. In my mind what they did is awful, but it is NOT wrong. To say it is wrong would imply that we are working from an objective idea. There is no such thing as objectivity, it is all subjective. While I may think and the majority of the world will think that their action is horrible it doesn't mean it's wrong. Have you listened to
anything that I've said? It doesn't give them a pass. It's a matter of perception. There is no right or wrong both in what they do and in our reaction to it. No they are not wrong in what they do, but we are also not wrong in throwing them in prison. This thing works retroactively. Your own ego blinds reason. There is no such thing as truth, there is no such thing as absolutism or objectivity. It is all subjective to one's own feelings and experiences. And you know what? A belief in a "perfect God is unreasonable. Repent to your mind for damaging it with that idiotic thinking.

Oh so because the first human ate a piece of fruit God exacts his revenge by torturing and killing us or allowing ourselves to do that to each other? What kind of God is that? I want you to listen to this idiocy for a second because it is quite interesting. According to your "religion" God created man and everything including man's ability to be tempted. Then he created the devil and the devil tempted Adam because God gave Adam the ability to be tempted. Now, Adam gives in to this temptation that God has put inside of him and God throws him out of Eden and forces him and all of his ancestors to toil endlessly on earth and be punished for eternity. How does any of that make sense? My parents are not God, they did not personally create every part of me including my ability to be tempted. They react to me, God created us and then got mad because we used something that he gave to us? This entire story makes no sense.

You outline many horrible circumstances that invoke terrible mental images. But still you do not listen. The justification of one's actions works retroactively. You are justified in what you do but I am justified in my reaction if the majority agrees with it, this is a democracy you know. The people decide what is punishable and what is not. The simple result is that there are no morals, no absolutes. Absolutes are the evil of the world. Jews are bad, an absolute and the result being the holocaust. Christians are always right, an absolute and the result being the inquisitions, crusades, and oppression of freedom of religion for about 1500 years. The laws of Alah supersede human laws, an absolute and the result being the terror you see today. We need to look at all things with tolerance and understanding. Descartes' most difficult advance was in trying to prove that he himself existed, he came up with an answer and one that can be argued against. So, if one of the great philosophers of the Renaissance could not even come up with a a foolproof case for his own being than how can you be certain that your concepts of "right and wrong" are real? There is no right and wrong.

You keep misunderstanding my concept. It is not wrong because there is no such thing as wrong. Wrong is an absolute term and there are no absolutes. Absolutes only lead to the same horror that you are railing against. It's perception and this justification works retroactively meaning that the status quo stays the same whether you accept this theory or not. This in no way means that God exists and I have proven in at least one way (the idiotic creation story) as to why he must not exist.

Yes and no questions are falsehoods. Why do you rely on an either or policy? I personally think that it is despicable to do such a thing but that does not mean that it is wrong, because there is no such thing as wrong, being an absolute term. I wish you would listen as much as you repeat.

For those voting listen to the main point. Is there a God? It does not matter that my views on morals may be unorthodox. The important thing is that he has not proven that these evil people prove the existence of God. As I have stated they in fact further my arguments by showing what a vindictive monster this "God" must be (if he exists). You cannot prove God by saying there must be a judge, that is completely nonsensical and should be treated as such. Listen to the facts. There is no empirical evidence that God exists. Every example he used only furthered my argument. Vote with that and you will surely see that I won this argument.
Debate Round No. 3
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by artC 9 years ago
artC
Anyone who actually still believes that right and wrong and the morality of a person depends on "god" is ignorant.

Believing in god is comparable to believing in the Easter Bunny anyway.
Posted by Pricetag 9 years ago
Pricetag
Thank you very much ctlaster. I appreciate the support.
Posted by GeoffG 9 years ago
GeoffG
Patriots, please don't vote. For anything. Ever.
Posted by ctlaster 9 years ago
ctlaster
oh my god i loved this debate!! Pricetag--i agree with you....subjectivity makes much more sense!
Posted by Pricetag 9 years ago
Pricetag
Patriots who won this argument?
Posted by Lastphoenix0 9 years ago
Lastphoenix0
if there is a god that make thing happen or change thing why cant he stop bad ppl doing thing that are not suppost to be happennig not to mention the exsitence of god i a belife not a a fact that has been proven
Posted by patriots16-0 9 years ago
patriots16-0
its kind of hard not to make you sound idiotic even if my grammar is rite
Posted by Pricetag 9 years ago
Pricetag
I find that most people can't accept the idea of subjectivity although it is the most logical one. I agree that faith is the only measure of the existence of God and as that is neither verifiable nor demonstrable we must assume that we cannot know if he exists, but by default he does not exist. At least if you want to look at it from a scientific or logical sense. To clarify I am an agnostic, not an atheist. Also in response to one of the other posters, I only criticized his grammar and spelling because he made my words sound idiotic when he quoted me.
Posted by Xelos 9 years ago
Xelos
Absolutely wonderful argument Pricetag, nice explanation on right and wrong. Right and wrong are based upon the times we live in too, during the roman empire it was not "wrong" to kill certain people without justification (certain slaves). Hypothetically speaking many years into the future jewish people may carry a deadly strain that kills everyone else so the killing of the jews in order to preserve the rest of mankind is needed. So Hitlers genocidal orders may not be viewed in the same disgust as we view them today. Patriot trying to prove the existence of god is currently impossible (Rene Descartes made a noble attempt), God is not to be proved through miracles or other reasoning the belief behind god is FAITH. The great thing to people of faith is that god can not be proved or unproved.
Posted by yoon172 9 years ago
yoon172
Man, this is one of the most rudimentary debates I've seen. Both of you are insulting each other, especially pricetag who pointed out to use better grammer. Everyone has a different method of typing such as typing fast because they have no time.
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