The Instigator
Stupidape
Pro (for)
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0 Points
The Contender
Billjunior
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Eating meat in 1st world countries is usually gluttony.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/24/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 409 times Debate No: 94951
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

Stupidape

Pro

Brief intro, I'm upset about factory farming. I'm looking for something to blame. I lashed out at the nearest thing I could and tried to blame it. Yet, since 99% of animals are factory farmed in the USA and 77% of citizens are Christian, clearly there is no correlation nor causation between the two. 22% difference is too vast.

I needed to find something pan-human, something all humans have, Christian and otherwise. Since 99% is almost 100%.

I'm on a sort of quest to figure out what causes factory farming. Why does it exist? Anyways, rather than fight against the majority I decided perhaps there is something in the Bible that can help me understand the situation.


I think eating meat is a form of gluttony in the 1st world.


"Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things. " [0]

"For many, it is the taste, texture, or convenience of flesh. However, as Christians, we must ask whether such desires reflect Christian values. Is eating meat the right thing to do, or does it reflect a lack of compassion?" [1]


"19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;" [2]

"Gluttony – excess in eating and drinking: “for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags” (Proverbs 23:21). " [3]


The Bible states that gluttony is to be avoided and there is consequences. Yet, does this match reality? I would say it does.


First, lets look at world hunger, yet it exists. [4] One pound of beef requires 20 ibs of grain to produce. [5] "Producing one pound of animal protein requires 100 times more water than producing one pound of grain protein." [5]

Not only that but grains are more calorie dense with over 2x the calories per weight. [6][7]
Grains are also the cheapest form of calories. [8] Grains are cost less than half as much to fill up a person.

Alright, so you are being gluttonous by eating meat. People are hungry, eating meat is harsher on the environment depriving others and not being a good steward of the land. Meat is expensive too.

What about the consequences though? Are Americans paying for their sin? Yes, they are.

"More than one-third (34.9% or 78.6 million) of U.S. adults are obese. [Read abstract Journal of American Medicine (JAMA)]
Obesity-related conditions include heart disease, stroke, type 2 diabetes and certain types of cancer, some of the leading causes of preventable death." [9]


God is punishing Americans for their gluttonous sins. The penalty is obesity, heart disease, stroke, type 2 diabetes, and some cancers. Yet, does this make us poor? Yes, it is. [10]

"The estimated annual medical cost of obesity in the U.S. was $147 billion in 2008 U.S. dollars; the medical costs for people who are obese were $1,429 higher than those of normal weight." [9]

There we have it, eating meat is usually gluttony in 1st world countries. We are paying for our sins in both body and money. Americans are not treating their bodies as a temple. Repent sinners.

Thanks for the debate. God bless.


Sources
0. http://biblehub.com...
1. http://www.all-creatures.org...
2. https://www.biblegateway.com...
3. http://www.allaboutgod.com...
4. http://www.statisticbrain.com...
5. https://alumni.stanford.edu...
6. http://nutritiondata.self.com...
7. http://nutritiondata.self.com...
8. http://ajcn.nutrition.org...
9. http://www.cdc.gov...
10. http://www.npr.org...
Billjunior

Con

Hi, and thank-you to pro for instigating this debate. I would think that eating meat in first world countries is not gluttony, and here's why...

Gluttony is defined as "habitual greed or excess in eating." Now, I am a meat-eater, but I dont eat out of habit, nor am i eating too much (im 16 and ony weigh 51). I would expect much of the population shares substainal common ground with me. Therefore, when first world people eat meet, it does not match up with the definition of gluttony.

Also, you mentioned that the bible says gluttony is a sin. However, the bible does not PROVE that gluttony is a sin, so you are basing your arguement on the 'appeal to authority' fallacy. Also, you are assuming a god exists, with is somewhat problematic, but I can work with it.

Ealier you stated that "God is punishing people for gluttonous sins". This is a hugly invalid claim, as this is no sign or miracle from god- we know why many of us are fat, and there is no need for a supernatural explaination.

Also, It is a well known fact that it takes up alot of resources to eat meat, but that would not entail why it is gluttonous to eat meat. In debates with this well used premises and conclusions to make a logical flow of thoughts. Here is your arguement-
P1- Eating meat uses up alot of resources
P2- Eating meat causes alot of health problems
Conclusion- Eating meat if therefore gluttous

I just dont see the logical flow from premise 2 to the conclusion. And can yoy explain the meaning of the bible quote "Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things".

I may agree that eating meat is greedy, as in doing so, we are using up resources that could be used to end world hunger, but it wouldn't be gluttonous, per se.

The word gluttony usually as negative connotations, but i fail to see the truth behind this. Sure it may make you fat, unhealthy and diabetic, but what it you dont mind those consequences. What if i think that eating meat is worth all those problems. What if you arent christian.

For your sake, Ill use some biblical arguments if that was what you were looking for. In the bible, god apparently designed humans, right? Well then how come he designed us are omnivores? How come he didn't mind it when a lamb or two got sacrificed, but now you say that he cares if we eat meat. Also, god permitted meat-eating in the days of jesus- didn't he give a thousand people bread and fish or something? Fish is meat, so why would jesus give people meat is it was soo bad?

Good luck
Debate Round No. 1
Stupidape

Pro

"Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
" [11]

I think God made it clear we were supposed to be herbivores. Also, the many references in the Bible comparing humans as sheep. I don't recall sheep hunting in packs, killing, and eating large herbivores. In fact, a false prophet is compared to a ravenous wolf. [12] Wolves eat meat, sheep don't.


People look for extraordinary miracles. Yet, most of the Bible is ordinary happenings.


"If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple." [13]


As you can see people are destroyed by God for destroying God's temple. In this case destroying the temple via gluttony. God destroys the person via obesity, heart disease, cancer, and diabetes.

Another way to put this is to destroy your body is test God. Eating a bunch of junk food is little different than attempting to jump off a cliff.


I mean if you want the logical and scientific route as to why your body is destroyed just look up heterocyclic amines, intramyocellular lipids, saturated fat and blood viscosity, cholesterol, and so forth.


"
Gluttony is defined as "habitual greed or excess in eating." Now, I am a meat-eater, but I dont eat out of habit, nor am i eating too much (im 16 and ony weigh 51). I would expect much of the population shares substainal common ground with me. Therefore, when first world people eat meet, it does not match up with the definition of gluttony."Billjunior


How much meat do you think we need? We don't need any! Any amount of meat eating in today's world of superabundance is gluttony.


"I may agree that eating meat is greedy, as in doing so, we are using up resources that could be used to end world hunger, but it wouldn't be gluttonous, per se." Billjunior


You admit yourself that eating meat is greedy, yet how is this not gluttonous? People seem to mindlessly consume copious amounts of meat. If you watch the Forks over Knives diet we are eating way more meat than we did in the 50s. Americans have idolized meat, their God is their belly. God is destroying them for their sin.

People seem to think when God acts that its all miracles, yet personally I've never witnessed a miracle I recognized. By their very nature miracles are extremely rare.


"Also, god permitted meat-eating in the days of jesus- didn't he give a thousand people bread and fish or something? Fish is meat, so why would jesus give people meat is it was soo bad?" Billjunior


That was back like 2,000 years ago or so. That fish wasn't factory farmed. Neither was it gathered by industrial trawlers. Back then, they didn't have the superabundance associated with 1st world countries of today. Do you not see there is vast differences between a few events in the Bible feeding a relatively small amount of people, compared to millions of 1st world citizens mindlessly consuming fish from industrial trawlers.

How far can we stray from the Lord without dire consequences? We can't go back to the garden of Eden, but we can abstain from eating meat. We can incorporate more fruit into our diets.


Thanks for debating.

Sources
11. https://www.biblegateway.com...
12. http://biblehub.com...
13. http://biblehub.com...
14. http://www.forksoverknives.com...
Billjunior

Con

It seems to me like that you are ok with the act of eating meat itself, but you have a problem with factory farming. When i stated that Jesus ate fish, you said that was ok, but the problem is that these days it is factory farmed. How the fish is farmed has nothing to do with the definition of gluttony. You argument is invalid. You also still have yet to prove that god does exist, but, you may be saving that for later.

Let me ask you this- what is wrong with factory farming, and why is it that 3rd world countries can get off with factory farming while 1st world countries cannot.
Debate Round No. 2
Stupidape

Pro

It's not that the fish was factory farmed as much as that hunger was a real threat in the the era that Jesus ate fish. Its not gluttony if you need the food to survive. What makes eating fish gluttony is the fact that so many other food choices are available. If a person was starving on a desert island, it wouldn't get gluttony it eat the fish.

Today we have refrigerators, freezers, large tractors, more reliable transportation, and many other factors than minimize the chances of somebody starving to death in a 1st world country. I find consuming meat is usually gluttony due to the excess strain on resources. A person is being immoral and greedy when eating meat, when there is so many alternatives.

Eating vegetarian, absence of all meats, is healthy and safe. [15] As for proving God exists, does it really matter? Even if we prove God does not exist, people will still believe in God. People will still read the Bible and pray to God. The definition of gluttony will not change regardless of God's existence.

I thank my opponent for continuing this debate.

Source
15. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
Billjunior

Con

Gluttony is again, defined as "habitual greed or excess in eating."
I quote you "I find consuming meat is usually gluttony due to the excess strain on resources."
Your reason why eating meat is invalid, as gluttony, by definition, cannot be caused due to the excess strain on resources. The definition doesnt say anything about resources.

You said that eating meat is only permissible if you are going to starve. However, you contradict yourself by saying that it was ok for jesus to produce a 1000 fish and feed it to people who are only hungry, they are not starving, yet they eat meat.

Also, you state that if you destroy "gods temple/your body", god will destroy that person. But what does destroying your body even mean? This is a subjective question, and because we would like objective and non-arbeitrary answers, God couldn't come up with the 'correct' answer, even is all his supposed power. Its like if like asking the question "which painting is better? da vinci's mona lisa or van gogh's starry night?" God could simply not give a 'correct' answer.

Also, being greedy is not synomynous with being gluttonous. Just because we dont need to eat meat and we eat alot of it doesnt make the act gluttonous. If you can prove that eating meat is habitual and excess in eating, then that would make meat-eating gluttonous.

Also, you still havent proved that being gluttonous is a bad thing. You can use all the bible quote you want but you cannot base your argument on an appeal to authority. If being gluttonous is bad because it harms your body, then it is not the meat eating that is bad in itself, i would be the people who overeats that is the bad thing, not the act of eating meat.
Debate Round No. 3
Stupidape

Pro

Eating meat is habitual and greedy. By the very nature of eating, it is habitual. Eating meat is greedy since you both being selfish, by destroying the environment via your habits and consuming an excess in the resources required to substation yourself.

Way back in the past, when Jesus fed the fish to people, it was a third world country. They didn't have large diesel tractors back then.

"Full Definition of greed : a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed"

Thanks for the debate.

http://www.merriam-webster.com...
Billjunior

Con

Again, we all know eating meat is greedy and selfish, but not all greedy and selfish acts are bad. You have proved at least this much. However, this is irrelavent because the definition of gluttony has nothing to with greed, nor how it impacts others and the environment. You are not responding to the arguments ive amde all this time and you keep repeating yourself. In thet future try to use premises and conclusion to lay out your argument better. Vote COn:)
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Stupidape 1 year ago
Stupidape
"Fourthly, nobody cares if animals are "factory farmed" or not. As long as they are treated humanely, then we will eat them"

As you saying factory farmed animals are treated humanely?
Posted by TheBenC 1 year ago
TheBenC
First of all, the world produces enough food to feed everyone well. Why are there still hungry people? It is because those with power/money choose to let those people go hungry and to let the food rot, instead of spending their money and using their power to send the food to the hungry. Blame the rich/powerful, not the omnivores.

Secondly, eating meat is not gluttony. I have no idea where you get that from. It is ridiculous. When the Bible talks about "flesh" it is referring to people and our lustful natures. It does not mean eating meat. Jesus ate meat. It was rare because in that area at that time meat was rare, but they all ate it. At big celebrations it was the custom to eat meat, usually a goat or lamb.

Thirdly, SCREW HALAL! Muslims are trying to enforce these barbaric rules all over the planet. Look at HALAL videos and how they kill cows. It is disgusting. SCREW HALAL!

Fourthly, nobody cares if animals are "factory farmed" or not. As long as they are treated humanely, then we will eat them.
Posted by Samcoder1 1 year ago
Samcoder1
mapleleaf173 Capitalism is just trade for personal gain rather than for the gain of another: I sell you some oats for a knife shaped rock because I value the rock more than the oats. This is simply human nature. The exchange of value is the core of capitalism and no other system would work as well.

Socialism is nice idea in theory in that it represents a world in which everyone has nice things, but it simply goes against human nature and consequently fails in practice. Would you sell your house and give everything you had to the poor? Probably not, because you value your own well being above another's. We could call it gluttony, but only in that human nature is gluttonous, which is a useless sentence.
Posted by mapleleaf173 1 year ago
mapleleaf173
Can I argue that capitalism is the root cause and the result of a democractic system corrupted by lobbyist, the failure of anti-trust laws, and the modern day American consumerism? Or is that too close to "gluttony"
Posted by Bored_Debater 1 year ago
Bored_Debater
I define the 1st World as nations allied to the United States during the Cold War, that would include nations that some people consider 3rd world. There were 5 worlds during the Cold War. Nations allied to the United States, nations allied to the Soviet Union, nations that allied to neither known as the Non Align Movement, the indigenous peoples who might not even have been aware of the current world as it was, and Switzerland.
Posted by CuriousFear 1 year ago
CuriousFear
Eat halal meat or kosher it's the best meat in the world.
No votes have been placed for this debate.