The Instigator
Fruitytree
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
MadCornishBiker
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points

Eden Gardens are in Heaven !

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
MadCornishBiker
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/17/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,161 times Debate No: 36771
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (1)

 

Fruitytree

Pro

Eden Gardens are in Heaven !


I am Pro and I will have to show that , according to the old testament, Eden can only be in Heaven as opposed to: on Earth.


My opponent will have the burden to demonstrate that Eden is on earth, or that it cannot be in heaven.


Eden being the place mentioned in the beginning of Genesis.


We both can only use the OT with accurate translations of our choices (the most literal the better)


First round is for acceptance

MadCornishBiker

Con

I thank my opponent for the opportunity to debate this issue, l which is in fact quite pivotal to the meaning of all of the prophecies and promises in scripture.

I hope it won't prove to onerous a burden.

At least we agree on where Eden is mentioned.

I am happy to restrict myself to what is wrongly called the Old Testament, if only because it was all my king, Christ Jesus, had to teach from, and likewise his early followers in the first century, and hopefully I shall avail myself of a number of translations. Not always restricted to popular or even commonly known ones, but we shall see.

My belief is that Eden was created on heaven as an example of what Jehovah wanted Adam and Eve to spread across the earth, and that belief is largely based on scriptures such as:

Psalm 115:16

NWT 16 As regards the heavens, to Jehovah the heavens belong, But the earth he has given to the sons of men.

YLT 16 The heavens"the heavens are Jehovah's, And the earth He hath given to sons of men,

Rotherham 16 As for the heavens, the heavens, belong to Yahweh, but the earth, hath he given to the sons of men.

I look forward to the next round.
Debate Round No. 1
Fruitytree

Pro

I would like to thank MadCornishBiker very much for having accepted to debate me on this topic.


The first occurence of the word Eden in Genesis is this one :

8 And Jehovah God planteth a garden in Eden, at the east, and He setteth there the man whom He hath formed; Genesis 2 YLT


From which we can assume Eden is the place where Adam was first placed, but there is no direct reference on where Eden is located.


Adam was created from the Dust of the ground of the earth, but was placed in Eden, languistically speaking Eden should be outside earth, otherwise there would be no reason to give a name to the place where Adam was placed if it is on earth!

10 And a river is going out from Eden to water the garden, and from thence it is parted, and hath become four chief [rivers]; Genesis 2 YLT


So from this verse up to verse 14 We understand the origine of the waters of the named rivers on earth, is a river going out from Eden, but before this in the first Chapter, God had already mentioned something about where the waters of earth come from :

6 And God saith, `Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be separating between waters and waters.'

7 And God maketh the expanse, and it separateth between the waters which [are] under the expanse, and the waters which [are] above the expanse: and it is so.

8 And God calleth to the expanse `Heavens;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day second. Genesis 1 YLT
Basically it was all one water, and God sparated them with Heavens, so there are waters above heavens that are the origin of earth's waters, now the logical place of Eden, as one of its rivers is the origin of some earth's rivers, can only be Heavens.

In the 3rd Chapter, we got this verse:

23 Jehovah God sendeth him forth from the garden of Eden to serve the ground from which he hath been taken;


So Eden isn't the ground from which Adam was made, it was a transitory place, and now that he had sinned, he is sent back to earth! This is just one more evidence that Eden isn't on earth.


I send it now to Con so that he shows us why he beleives Eden is on earth..





MadCornishBiker

Con

I have to apologise to my opponent but I really cannot see the logic he is working to.

The whole of Genesis one, after talking about the creation of heavens and earth in verse one, is written as if it were an eye witness account of someone on the Earth acting as an observer.

I find absolutely nothing in the passages my opponent has cited which even indicate that Eden was in Heaven.

Nor incidentally can I find anything elsewhere in scripture which indicates the possibility.

Eden was created in the East. In the east of what? Where is there any suggestion that Heaven even has an "East", only the Earth is ever spoken of as containing such directions.

I now understand, however, why my opponent cleverly excluded use of the "NT" since to do so would show Jesus words that he was the only one to have come down to earth from heaven to earth in human form. Clever, but such are the rules so I shall not include the scripture in which he states that.

Yes God called the expanse heaven, and we still call it such today even though it is a physical heaven not a spiritual one, which the "real thing" is.

In one sense of course, my opponent is right in that everything originated in heaven, but there is no way that anything can be above the spiritual heavens because the spiritual and the physical cannot mix.

I find the following statement by my opponent interesting:

"Adam was created from the Dust of the ground of the earth, but was placed in Eden, languistically speaking Eden should be outside earth, otherwise there would be no reason to give a name to the place where Adam was placed if it is on earth!".

I ask why there was not reason to give a name to the place which God created as a pattern for Adam and Eve to work to to make the Earth the Paradise that it was intended to be. In that "Paradise of pleasure" that "Garden of Eden", which was given a name to distinguish it from the rest of the earth around which, whilst fertile was as yet unshaped and a "work in progress" for Adam and Eve, along with their descendants to complete.

Adam was cast out of Eden, along with his wife, purely and simply because they no longer were to be allowed access to the "tree of life" which would have sustained thie bodies permanently, and presumably to prevent them from using Eden as a pattern for the rest of the earth again.

There is absolutely nothing in scripture which suggests anything other than the Garden was initially formed on the earth.

I look forward to the next round.
Debate Round No. 2
Fruitytree

Pro

I thank my opponent for his first rebuttals.


MCB : " Eden was created in the East. In the east of what? Where is there any suggestion that Heaven even has an "East", only the Earth is ever spoken of as containing such directions."


First it's not Eden that was created in the east, but the Garden where Adam was put was grown in the East of Eden, the east being the direction where the light source appears to rise from in the "morning", this doesn't have to be on earth at all.



For more about the east of Eden, please consider these verse:

3 and God saith, `Let light be;' and light is.

4 And God seeth the light that [it is] good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness,

5 and God calleth to the light `Day,' and to the darkness He hath called `Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a
morning -- day one. Genesis1 YLT


This first light isn't the sun we know, and the days it produces aren't our days, and the place it enlightens is
Eden. This light was created before the sun, here are the verses that refer to the creation of the sun, moon and stars, later in the same chapter:



14 And God saith, `Let luminaries be in the expanse of the heavens, to make a separation between the day and the night,
then they have been for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years,

15 and they have been for luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth:' and it is so.

16 And God maketh the two great luminaries, the great luminary for the rule of the day, and the small luminary
-- and the stars -- for the rule of the night;

17 and God giveth them in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth, Genesis1 YLT

18 and to rule over day and over night, and to make a separation between the light and the darkness; and God seeth that
[it is] good;

19 and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day fourth.


So other than or sun, there is a light, and that light is the one according to which God counted the days in Genesis 1 and 2 , and who says days, says land, and the land is Eden.


And if my opponenet insists on Eden being on earth, why can he not just locate it and let us see what the Garden looks like?

I will allow my opponent to use a couple of verses from the new testament that show - according to him- that none ever came from Heaven, as agreed with him on PM.


The verses were clear about the fact that Adam didn't belong to Eden, but to Earth: from it he was created and to it he shall return, and from it he shall be resurrected in the day of judgement , Which strongly hints to the fact that Eden and Earth aren't the same place.


I look forward to read my opponents next rebuttals.
MadCornishBiker

Con

Again I thank my opponent for his courtesy, and also I apologise for the fact that I appear to have misjudged his motivation for excluding the "New Testament" from the debate.

I also wish to thank him for the permission to stray into the NT to bring in what I believe are relevant and important words from Jesus, I copy and paste them below, without comment as I believe they are self explanatory:

John 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.

I note with interest his understanding of Genesis Chapter one, whihc differs from my own, and could explain his misapprehension about where Adam was situated.

I shall copy and paste a different translation of Genesis 1 here and examine it verse by verse. It does not differ greatly from that of Young's Literal Translation, excepting in it's use of more modern language, and is the New World Translation.

Genesis 1:1-31
1 In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

A simple, bland statement of the creation of heaven and earth, with not indication whatever of time scale.

However here the context shifts and the rest is written as if from the viewpoint of someone on the earth reporting on what happens:

3 And God proceeded to say: "Let light come to be." Then there came to be light. 4 After that God saw that the light was good, and God brought about a division between the light and the darkness. 5 And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day.

My opponent here appears to mistake the appearance of light for the creation of a new luminary, and yet we know from verse one that cannot be the case. It appears to be simply the point at whihc light penetrates to ground level with no visible source:

6 And God went on to say: "Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters." 7 Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. 8 And God began to call the expanse Heaven. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a second day.

Here we could be forgiven for thinking this describes the creation of literal heaven, and yet that has already been created. So what does it mean?

Do we not describe someone looking up into the sky as "gazing to heaven" or similar words?

14 And God went on to say: "Let luminaries come to be in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between the day and the night; and they must serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years. 15 And they must serve as luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth." And it came to be so. 16 And God proceeded to make the two great luminaries, the greater luminary for dominating the day and the lesser luminary for dominating the night, and also the stars. 17 Thus God put them in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth, 18 and to dominate by day and by night and to make a division between the light and the darkness. Then God saw that [it was] good. 19 And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a fourth day.

Do verses 14 to 19 indicate another act of creation, or do they simply indicate that these luminaries have become visible o our "earth bound observer"? I personally believe the latter as it fits better:

No mention of Adam being transferred to or from anywhere.

Then we go to Chapter 2, which is written in non-chronological order as if from Adam's viewpoint.

2 Thus the heavens and the earth and all their army came to their completion. 2 And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made. 3 And God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making.
4 This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.
5 Now there was as yet no bush of the field found in the earth and no vegetation of the field was as yet sprouting, because Jehovah God had not made it rain upon the earth and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 6 But a mist would go up from the earth and it watered the entire surface of the ground.
7 And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life. and the man came to be a living soul. 8 Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in Eden, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Apparently my opponent is under the misapprehension that this Garden, planted in Eden, was planted in heaven, whihc from what we have read so far in Genesis raises the obvious ,question, whihc heaven? The physical heaven created by God to house the sun and all other stars, as well as the planets, or the spiritual heavens where God himself dwells along with his son and the Angels?

Scriptures elsewhere in the "OT" describes the spirit realm as being completely incompatible with the physical one, so that rules out the heaven in which God dwells, and leaves us with the physical one.

Is my opponent therefore suggesting that the Garden of Eden was planted on another planet and Adam and Even brought there form earth and then returned to it when they sinned?

Or is it not much more reasonable to believe that Eden was planted on a part of the earth, and Adam being created in an area of the same planet outside the Garden and then placed in what was to become a template for Adam's commission of filling the earth and subduing it?

What happened when Adam was ejected from the Garden with his wife?

Would it have been possible for him to return to it since it was on earth?

Well, what does scripture tell us, starting at verse 23 of Genesis 2?

23 With that Jehovah God put him out of the garden of Eden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 And so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life.

So, to prevent Adam rebelling further and returning to the Garden, god had to place a guard over it until it died. Does that not suggest that Eden was at least accessible from the earth, and much more likely actually occupying a part of it?

The fact that we no longer have a Garden of Eden here on earth means nothing. How long would your garden remain cultivated if you were simply to leave it to it's own devices, doing no work in it?

Would it not soon revert to the wild state?

As for the fact of Adam being created "from the dust of the ground", is there anything to suggest that the ground from which he was created is situated anywhere other than outside the earth, but still on the earth? No there is not.

If you wanted livestock for your garden would you need to have them produced on some other planet or some other realm? or would they simply be imported into your garden from another part of the same planet?

I leave you with those thoughts and await my opponents response with some anticipation.
Debate Round No. 3
Fruitytree

Pro

Fruitytree forfeited this round.
MadCornishBiker

Con

I have no intention of capitalising on my opponents unfortunate need to forfeit this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Fruitytree

Pro

I thank my opponent for having forfeited his 4th round, and I appologise for the forfeit, I simply couldn't make it.

1-John' verse:

This verse really only noone (in the past) ascended to Heaven, it isn't saying none has descended except Jesus: Here I put alternative translations to get a better idea of the meaning:

13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.YLT

13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man[e] has come down from heaven. NLT

[e] Some manuscripts add who lives in heaven. “Son of Man” is a title Jesus used for himself.


Basically this sounds more like a prophecy about his ascention and return, and doesn't in anyway negate that Adam first home was in Heaven.


2-Genesis 1


My oppoenent claims that the speaker in Genesis 1 has to be an eye witness "on earth" which isn't any necessary, for He Who is in heaven is the witness of everything. God isn't on earth but He sees and hears all that happens on earth, so being on earth is just not needed.


MCB : " Here we could be forgiven for thinking this describes the creation of literal heaven, and yet that has already been created. So what does it mean?"

The first verse is an introduction, explained in detail from the next verse, it isn't an independent step!

As for verses 14 to19 referring to the Luminaries "inside the expense of heavens", they are a new creation, and the days of earth arent the same days God used to detail the steps of creation, they even't aren't made the same day!

It is important to note that the first luminary was created even before the expense of Heavens separated earth from the other land and its waters, and this first Luminary is what God uses when He says day 1, day 2 ... in Genesis 1.

Whereas from Verse 14 the Luminaries are caused "to be", for they were inexistent before that. and those are the luminaries that are the sun, the moon and the stars.

3-Genesis 2:

MCB : " Is my opponent therefore suggesting that the Garden of Eden was planted on another planet and Adam and Even brought there form earth and then returned to it when they sinned?"


Adam and Even first steps where on the Gorden of Eden, not on earth, and when I say Eden is in Heaven, I mean above heavens, for the expense called heavens is what separates between earth and Eden. you want one more proof ? here you are :

8 And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.


So clearly, Adam and Eve then where in Heaven, where God is, and could hear His sound. My opponent calling it a 'spiritual Heaven' isn't based on any text nor any logic, and I invite him to axplain what he means with: spiritual Heaven, and where the waters of the other side of heavens are ??

4- The cherubs and the flaming blade of sword Guarding the way to tree of Life.


Adam and Eve desobeyed God by eating from the tree of knowledge, so the result is that they now do die, and are aware of right and wrong, they are accountable before God, God has decided to cast them out from Eden to place them where they belong, the ground from which they where initially created, that is a different place from Eden, where they lived their early special life.God Guarded the tree of life by the east of Eden, Not because Adam could ever reach it again until he doth taste death, but for a reason He only knows, He could destroy the tree of life just like He created it, why would He just guard it till it perishes (strange for a tree of life to perish !! ).

Looking forward to reading my opponent's last rbuttals, being all confident that you were able to make up your mind and agree with me that Eden can only be in Heaven, according to the book of Genesis.
MadCornishBiker

Con

John 1:13 It isn't a prophecy of his ascension and return because there never will, or even can, be a literal return to earth.

For Christ to take on human form again and come down would not only be a futile exercise greeted with greater hostility than his previous "visit" than was so that time.

The general teachings of those who call themselves "Christian" are so far removed from what Jesus and the Apostles taught that they rival the teachings of Judaism in the 1st century for Apostasy, probably even surpassing them.

One only has to see the reception truly Christian teachings get on this site to realise what opposition Christ would receive, and this time by a while world of people, not just a few local "Pharisees" etc. Thanks to Satan's intervention opposition would be far greater if there were another time.

It is also worth taking into account Jesus words at Luke 17:26-30. If that is indeed the state of mind of people when he is "due to be revealed" then the reception he would receive is obviously not going to be favourable.

In fact Christ's "return" had precisely the same intentions as his primary purpose first time, to bring God's people back to God. Back then God's people were the remnants of the nation of Israel, and faithful ones followed Jesus and his Apostles and became the newly formed "Spiritual Israel", The New Israel" or "Israel of God" (Romans 9).

When Christ turned his attention to the earth from heaven, whihc event was after he took up his throne ion 1914, he found, as he had feared that the faith was in fact no longer in the earth (Luke 18:8). Therefore he pulled a few who wished to be faithful out of Apostate Christianity into a New "Spiritual Israel" and proceeded to teach them in preparation for the work ahead of them (Matthew 24:14) That group eventually became known as Russelites and so were forced to change their name. After much prayerful consideration they settled on that suggested by Isaiah 43:10 "Jehovah's Witnesses".

In that sense Christ turning his attention to the earth had exactly the same result as his first visit did, and created a cleansed band of servants.

In fact I didn't say the observer had to be on earth, I said, as is self evident to a discerning reader that is was written as if by an observer on earth. That explains what otherwise might appear to be contradictions within the text.

In fact the first is a separate step since it only deals with the creation of heaven and earth whereas verse 2 onwards deal;s with the preparation of that planet for habitation. No other details are supplied because none are needed.

There is absolutely nothing in that verse 8 to suggest that they were in heaven.

the expression "the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down " can only be figurative since God is a spirit, and therefore has no spiritual form to walk up and down. (John 4:23,24).

Where in that verse does it say the Cherubs are anywhere but on earth? Nowhere. Angels and Cherubs have visited the earth, both literally and in vision, on may occasions.

No, I cannot believe that Eden was in heaven because all of scripture points to it being on the earth.

I thank my opponent for the opportunity to debate this issue.
Debate Round No. 5
No comments have been posted on this debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Chrysippus 3 years ago
Chrysippus
FruitytreeMadCornishBikerTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: While neither side made a particularly strong case, since the verses in question simply do not mention whether Eden was on Earth or in Heaven, Con's arguments were slightly stronger; the most convincing being those regarding the angel guardian and the earth-bound perspective of the verses. Conduct also goes to Con for his courteous handling of Pro's forfeit.