The Instigator
Mellers23
Con (against)
Losing
21 Points
The Contender
PoeJoe
Pro (for)
Winning
54 Points

Education system of California.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/3/2008 Category: Education
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,047 times Debate No: 4579
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (19)
Votes (17)

 

Mellers23

Con

I'm a high school student in Apple Valley, CA. We seem to be in a little bit of a dilemma. The budget crisis is terrible. I blame the Governor. Does anyone know when the next [elections for governor] are? Well anyway. I think they're cutting it 10-15%? D=!!! At my school, they built football stadium lights around our track, and we don't even have a proper field. We don't even have stands. They also chose to build baseball/softball dugouts, and out teams have never gotten close to the state championships. When our soccer teams don't have proper goal..things. And they have one the CIF[championships] for the past 3 years. My school is choosing to fund the athletics instead of the academics. They cut 600 staff/faculty members from my district for this coming school year. This means the class sizes are going to increase dramatically, and the overall success of students is going to decrease. I don't want to fail life! I want a quality education, along with the 3000 other kids that attend my school. So, as a student, I can propose ideas to the student council/school board. Does anyone have any practical, not so out-of-reach advice on what to suggest to my 'school officials'? Because they don't seem to be doing a very effective job, so I think it's time to change something.
PoeJoe

Pro

I am a sophomore at Temple City, CA. However, before I begin to detail to you why our California education is actually superb, I will first introduce you to this site, answer your questions, and point out the many flaws in your opening argument. Although this argument may not be "conventional", I believe that a non-conventional opening argument is needed to counter another non-conventional argument. Forgive me.

-----

Debate.org is primarily a debate site. As such, ranting is generally discouraged. Instead, try not to speak of yourself as much, in favor of speaking to your opponent (me in this case) and the audience at large. Try to formalize your arguments into clear ideas and paragraphs. Doing so will not only make your ideas come across better, but will help you "win" your debates.

Also, this website as of yet, is not a forum. It is suggested that you use proper spelling and grammar, and that you do not ask the audience questions. Instead, answer the audience's questions through your debate. Why should they vote for you? Why is California's education "terrible"? Tell them.

-----

You ask when the next elections will be held?
A quick Google search will show that the California gubernatorial elections will be held on November 2, 2010.

You ask what to ask your school officials?
If your school is as bad as you describe, you should present your case to city hall. Never mind your school officials, they won't be able to help you.

You ask whether or not your school is changing a D to equal ten to fifteen percent?
I can not possibly answer this as I do not go to your school. However, I highly, highly doubt so.

-----

My opponent's argument relies solely on personal opinion and anecdotal evidence. Though this, not only can the validity of her statements be brought into serious question, but they also provide nothing of California's education system as a whole. Even if her school is as bad as she describes, we must remember that there is always a lower end of a bell curve.

She goes on by speculating by writing such things as, "I blame it on the Governer," and, "I don't want to fail life". While those are valid opinions, to pass them off as fact, you must provide evidence. Why is it our Governor's fault? Why will your school force you to "fail at life"? You bear the burden of proof that has yet to be seen.

I would love to see you elaborate your arguments in the future, using less personal opinion and anecdotes.

-----

California's education system is nothing but excellent. In fact, a so-named California Proposition 98, proposed in 1988, calls for an amazing 40% of our budget to be spent on education. More money is spent on education in California that almost every other state (we rank 5th) in the United States of America. As far as money goes, our education spending is nothing short of ridiculously good.

As for K-12 education, our student-to-teacher ratio is also very good. According to the National Education Association, since 1995, our highest student-to-teacher ratio within these thirteen years was 24.1, with a mode of only 20. That's amazing!

Our teachers are happy, and paid better than many other states as well. While the average teacher salary in the United States is $49026, California pays its teachers an average of $59825. That is $10799, or an astonishing 22% more than the nation's average.

Our community college system is also great too. With a total of 109 community colleges that serve 2.9 million students at a time, it is bigger and more robust than most other states. Mind you, ANYONE can get into California's community colleges. So everyone basically gets a fair chance.

Simply put, I do not see how Mellers23 can NOT admire California's education system. You, the audience, must vote for me thus far, because I have been the only debater to provide evidence for my position.
Debate Round No. 1
Mellers23

Con

Oh my goodness!
Ok, Mr.know-it-all.
Why is everyone so hellbent on being 'woo, I'm number one!'
Apparently, people these days have no other talent besides sitting in front of a screen trying to win votes. NO. BODY. CARES. ABOUT. HOW. MANY. POINTLESS. ARGUMENTS. YOU. WIN.

You are 14!!!!! Go get a girlfriend, and cuddle with her in front of a fireplace and such. Why don't you go live? You have 80+ years to argue with people. Do it for real, with people you can actually converse with. Words you can actually hear. Conversations that have actual meaning! Not all of these robots that spend countless hours perfecting how well they debate? Are you kidding? Newsflash: No one here cares about what you think, except yourself. People might get offended by some things I'm saying but it is absolutely true. Yeah, you're smart. Great. The world needs more intelligence. But actually do something with it? Please? Not just stare at a bunch of microchips. I encourage everyone to use their brainpower to change the world, because it needs a lot of change.

Perhaps Poejoe should mean "Poultry Joe". Hinthint: chickens.
PoeJoe

Pro

My opponent has done something rather amazing. Not only was her argument entirely composed of abusive ad hominems towards me, but she has managed to insult the majority of Debate.org's users. That's right. Mellers23, you just insulted the community that is voting for you. I take great offense, and you should be ashamed of your lack of conduct. If we were on a real-life debate stage, you would be laughed off. How dare you! I DEMAND an apology for your petty personal attacks and lack of etiquette and sportsmanship.

But beyond this, Mellers23 still makes one major fault: She fails EVEN to forge a proper ad hominem. EVERYTHING she attacks me with is based off assumptions: I do not believe that I am number one; I don't care about how many debates I win as long as I learn, and hone my debating skills; I do do things with my intelligence such as maintain a politically-themed blog; I don't expect people to care what I think; etc. I don't have a girlfriend however, so congrats on that.

I have been the only debater thus far to create any non-fallacious arguments. Thus, you the audience, must vote for me thus far. Please Mellers23. Please either counter my arguments and make non-assaultive arguments of your own, or forfeit this debate.

Oh, and by the way: I prefer to stare at a monitor, and NOT at microchips. I guess it's one of those personal preference kind-of things. Pixels rule; circuits suck.
Debate Round No. 2
Mellers23

Con

Teehee.

I'm finishing these two 'debates' I have going on, and then deleting my account. I thought people had the capability to be a little more hospitable, but I guess not.

Ok. You said, in both rounds, that the 'community' must vote for you. That tells me, that you care about how many votes you win. Don't ask me to forfeit, because I won't. Watching people try to prove they are right with 'research' amuses me. For the simple fact that the individual couldn't come to the conclusions themselves, they had to rely on someone else's intelligence. How intelligent is that? Now I don't know.

If you think those comments were abusive, oh my wow. You don't know what verbal abuse is. Please, please relay to me the 'insults' that I used, because I really don't think anything I said was that hurtful. You may just want attention. And woah, votes! Every comment I made, about the 'community' and yourself, had a bit of truth in it somewhere, whether you don't want to admit it or you just don't know it.

Just tell me...and I'm serious about this. No offense intended. What do you want to do in your life that will require such 'honed' debating skills? Will it really matter in 10 years how much an internet site favored you?
PoeJoe

Pro

It should be noted that nothing you have said in your last two posts have anything to do with the education system of California, the topic of this debate. You insist on talking about me -- never addressing the topic at hand. I would love for the debate to get back on track, and for you to stop pursuing my personal life. Please counter my arguments on R1 and come up with non-fallacious arguments. Please.

-----

However, if I must indulge, I will address your many concerns about me:

1) Yes, I want to get better at debating. When doing so though, it is necessary to try to "win" debates. Thus, it is silly to come to the conclusion that I should not try to win when practicing debate. Simply put, I primarily want to become a better debater. By doing so, I must try to win debates.

2) Mellers23 writes that I am "unintelligent" because I used an organization's statistics from which I am not affiliated with. I am sorry if this has offended you, but I simply do not have the resources to come up with my own statistics and reports. And even if I did, you would call my reports biased. No, instead I have to rely on the information around me. This is common in debate let me assure you; there is nothing wrong with citing outside information. And most of all, that doesn't make me "unintelligent".

3) Yes. Your comments were abusive in the debate world. Calling me a "know-it-all", asserting that I am conceited, calling me a "chicken", and bringing my personal life into the picture (whether or not I have a girlfriend is completely unrelated to the education system of California) are all what is known as "abusive ad hominem". This is highly frowned upon and you should stay away from such behavior.

4) Debating is very beneficial actually. It promotes higher order thinking, logical skills, (in some cases) teamwork, public speaking skills, analytical skills, research skills, and note taking skills.

-----

Let's assume that I am a doofus as you keep on hinting at. What does that have to do with the eduction system of California?! You, the audience, must vote for me because I am the only debater to have brought relevant arguments to the table.
Debate Round No. 3
Mellers23

Con

Mellers23 forfeited this round.
PoeJoe

Pro

This has truly been one of the oddest debates I have ever participated in. My opponent, Mellers23, has closed her account, so we're left with what we have now.

It has come to my attention (via the comments section), that I may have seemed a little rude as well. If I was, I sincerely apologize. Any passion on my part was solely derived from Mellers23's abusive comments towards me. And as for my opening argument, I truly believe that my notes were of a helpful tone, and not in any way inflammatory.

Regardless, you, the audience, most vote for me because I am the only debater who gave an argument whatsoever.
Debate Round No. 4
Mellers23

Con

Mellers23 forfeited this round.
PoeJoe

Pro

All that was needed to be said in this weird, weird debate has been said.

I think you, the audience, know what to do.
Debate Round No. 5
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mmadderom 8 years ago
mmadderom
And you demanded it 3 times while hinting at it a 4th time.
Posted by mmadderom 8 years ago
mmadderom
If there is one thing I can't stand, it's some arrogant kid telling what I MUST do.
Posted by Mogget 8 years ago
Mogget
Which would have probably been cool but the newcomer didn't want to debate, she wanted a discussion. -shrug-
Posted by Xera 8 years ago
Xera
See, I got from PoeJoe's R1 that he was giving a new comer that did not know how to debate tips on how to debate and win. Maybe it's just in the way I read it?
Posted by Mogget 8 years ago
Mogget
You know.... I'm not really sure. It could be that PoeJoe's first round counts as an ad hominem. Personally I think I am going to have to decline voting on this debate. While I thought what PoeJoe did was rather lame, even for this site, Mellers23 didn't really bother handling it. She just turned around and insulted him.

The simple phrase, "This debate is about finding a way to suggest to my school board an increase in academic funding", would have done it for me.

No vote.
Posted by Protagoras 8 years ago
Protagoras
Hmmm, who was ad hominem first?
Posted by PoeJoe 8 years ago
PoeJoe
I know this won't count towards the actual debate, but...

Also, my R1 took me no more than 40 minutes to research, write, and proofread. I don't spend "countless hours" on this site as you imply. This argument you see now, took around 10 minutes.
Posted by PoeJoe 8 years ago
PoeJoe
Irrefutable? I counter that with: http://wadefulp.com...
Posted by Rezzealaux 8 years ago
Rezzealaux
Irrefutable evidence for PRO:
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Irrefutable evidence for CON:
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Vote Placed by JBlake 8 years ago
JBlake
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Vote Placed by Logical-Master 8 years ago
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