The Instigator
lprascal
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Koopin
Con (against)
Winning
27 Points

Egg came before the chicken

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/22/2010 Category: Politics
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,358 times Debate No: 11839
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (22)
Votes (4)

 

lprascal

Pro

The egg came first. I mean yes the bible said "And God created…every winged fowl..." but in theory he didnt state what kind of winged fowl. Chickens could overtime been made through evolution so therefore eggs were made first.
Koopin

Con

INTRO
=====================
I would like to thank my opponent for this interesting debate.
In this debate we will assume that the Bible is true, since you are using it.
Audience, I am going to be using a lot of Scripture references. So if you find Scripture offensive I encourage you not to read any further.

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DEFINITIONS
=====================

Chicken: A domesticated fowl. As one of the most common and widespread domestic animals, and with a population of more than 24 billion in 2003, there are more chickens in the world than any other bird. Humans keep chickens primarily as a source of food, consuming both their meat and their eggs. [1]

Egg: A spheroid or ovoid shaped cell laid by females of many different species, including birds, reptiles, amphibians, and fish.

Bible: The Bible refers to the sacred scriptures of Judaism and Christianity. The Hebrew Bible comprises the books known to Christians as the Old Testament which contains two-thirds of the books of the Christian Bible—39 books. The remaining 27 books form the Christian New Testament.

====================

You claim that God could have used evolution to create the animals. For this to be true, man would have been a monkey then later on have turned into a human. This means quite a few things. First, it would mean that God did not create man on the sixth day, rather he created monkeys earlier and then Adam and eve evolved.
You should know the story of Adam and Eve, but just in case you do not I will post the story below.

Genesis 3: 1-6
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'

"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. [3]

Okay, this was the first sin by Man. By doing something that God said not to, they let sin into the world.

Romans 5:12 says,
'Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. [4]

So by sin came death, death was none existent before sin.
Now here is where it all comes together. Evolution is the survival of the fittest, the weak die and the strong lives. Evolution requires death. So if God used Evolution, then man would have been monkeys, some die and other become stronger. Evolution according to the bible could not be, because it uses death and death was not in the world before man sinned.

Moving on, you have the burden of proof. You have to prove that the egg came first. You simply claim that since God could have used evolution it means that the egg came first. Your argument has a logical fallacy. Just because something could have happened, does not mean it did. Obama could be an alien from space that implanted things in our memory to make us think he is human. But that does not mean that it really did happen.

I would also like to point out the bible does say that God created everything living, not just some.

Genesis 1:21
‘So God created the great creatures of the sea and EVERY living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and EVERY winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. ‘[5]

There are many other problems with your theory that I will save for later discussion. I look forward to your response.

Thank you.

Sources:
(1). http://en.wikipedia.org...
(2). http://en.wikipedia.org...
(3). http://www.biblegateway.com...
(4). http://www.biblegateway.com...
(5). http://www.biblestudytools.com...
Debate Round No. 1
lprascal

Pro

Now a team made up of a geneticist, philosopher and chicken farmer claim to have found an answer. It was the egg.
Put simply, the reason is down to the fact that genetic material does not change during an animal's life.
Therefore the first bird that evolved into what we would call a chicken, probably in prehistoric times, must have first existed as an embryo inside an egg.
Professor John Brookfield, a specialist in evolutionary genetics at the University of Nottingham, told the UK Press Association the pecking order was clear.
The living organism inside the eggshell would have had the same DNA as the chicken it would develop into, he said.
"Therefore, the first living thing which we could say unequivocally was a member of the species would be this first egg," he added. "So, I would conclude that the egg came first."
The same conclusion was reached by his fellow "eggsperts" Professor David Papineau, of King's College London, and poultry farmer Charles Bourns.
Mr Papineau, an expert in the philosophy of science, agreed that the first chicken came from an egg and that proves there were chicken eggs before chickens.
He told PA people were mistaken if they argued that the mutant egg belonged to the "non-chicken" bird parents.
"I would argue it is a chicken egg if it has a chicken in it," he said.
"If a kangaroo laid an egg from which an ostrich hatched, that would surely be an ostrich egg, not a kangaroo egg."
Bourns, chairman of trade body Great British Chicken, said he was also firmly in the pro-egg camp.
He said: "Eggs were around long before the first chicken arrived. Of course, they may not have been chicken eggs as we see them today, but they were eggs." -cnn.com

Darwinian Chicken
A further analysis of Darwinian theory finds that all animals were preceded by, and evolved from, ancestors that were not exactly like them. Changes in DNA as a result of the combinations of mutation, mistakes in DNA repair, ecological affects, and other influences allowed for the development of creatures that more harmoniously coexisted with the changing environment. As a result, with each successive evolutionary change, there is necessarily a creature that lacked the characteristics of that which later evolved. In the case of birds, including chickens, the eggs of the pre-evolved creature contained the newly evolved living animal. Specifically, a pre-chicken laid an egg that contained the newly evolved chicken. Thus, from the Darwinian perspective, we clearly find that the egg preceded the newly evolved chicken.

In simplest terms, we may make several assumptions: a) millions of years ago, ancestors of the present day chicken did not contain the exact DNA or other characteristics of today's chicken—thus, this was not a chicken; b) this pre-chicken was probably the ancestor of several egg-laying avian dinosaurs; c) each successive generation of these ancestral birds resulted in creatures that more closely approximate what we now know as a chicken. In an evolutionary timeline, we can see the result of our assumptions, and the answer to this alleged dilemma becomes clear:

Jurassic Non-Chicken � Egg � Triassic Non-Chicken � Egg � || History Continues || � Great Grandmother of Chicken � Egg � Grandmother of Chicken � Egg � Mother of Chicken � Egg � FIRST CHICKEN � Egg � Another Chicken � Egg-cetera.

With each successive generation, a nonchicken evolved closer to what became the first chicken. That first chicken arrived into this world from the confines of an egg. So, what came first? Clearly the egg preceded the chicken. Further, it does not matter where you draw the line between what you may call a chicken and a nonchicken. If for example, in the above diagram, you decide that the nonchicken identified as "Mother of Chicken" contained enough "essence of chickenness" to be identified as the chicken, then this creature was still preceded by, and came forth from an egg.

Those who are more philosophically minded may wish to further examine the true meaning of the essence of chickenness. Existentialists might scrutinize the circumstances of the pre-chicken, prior to it becoming fully actualized as a chicken. How did the pre-chickens exist without enough "chicken essence" to be identified as chicken, and what does this mean? Whatever it may mean, the egg contained the essence that eventually became the chicken. The egg was first.

Others have argued that chickens obviously came first, as eggs are laid by chickens. They further assert that even if chickens evolved from some non-chicken creature, the first chicken did not come from the egg of a chicken—it had to come from a non-chicken egg. Therefore, the first egg came after the first chicken. This argument fails to attend to the originally posed statement. As presented, the question is "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" It does not say, "Which came first, the chicken or the chicken egg?" Rather than engage in a discussion revolving around the evident conclusion that the chicken, once hatched and so designated, came from its formative home—a chicken egg, we will merely dismiss this inaccurate rendering of the original question. - http://radicalpedagogy.icaap.org...

So in theory when asked what came first the chicken or the egg is could have been any kind of egg like turtle egg or other. If meaning all winged fowls that would mean we have more animals to find
Koopin

Con

My opponent has simply copied and pasted arguments that are not his from sites such as: http://www.eecs.umich.edu...

I look forward forward to my opponents actual argument.

Also, you have still failed to prove that the egg came first.
Debate Round No. 2
lprascal

Pro

lprascal forfeited this round.
Koopin

Con

Please extend all arguments.
Debate Round No. 3
lprascal

Pro

lprascal forfeited this round.
Koopin

Con

Argument Extended.
Debate Round No. 4
lprascal

Pro

lprascal forfeited this round.
Koopin

Con

To bad you couldn't have written your own debate.

Argument extended. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 5
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Marauder 6 years ago
Marauder
NoOoOoOoOoOoOo!!!!
Posted by Koopin 6 years ago
Koopin
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I Win
Posted by Marauder 6 years ago
Marauder
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Posted by Koopin 6 years ago
Koopin
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Posted by Marauder 6 years ago
Marauder
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Posted by Koopin 6 years ago
Koopin
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Posted by Marauder 6 years ago
Marauder
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Posted by Koopin 6 years ago
Koopin
IP, please don't waist a good debate. I am still willing to debate with you if you will provide your own argument. :D
Posted by Koopin 6 years ago
Koopin
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Posted by Marauder 6 years ago
Marauder
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4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by kristoffersayshi 6 years ago
kristoffersayshi
lprascalKoopinTied
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Vote Placed by Marauder 6 years ago
Marauder
lprascalKoopinTied
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Rockylightning
lprascalKoopinTied
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Koopin
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