The Instigator
phantom
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
MrCarroll
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

English premier league vs Spanish la liga.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/21/2011 Category: Sports
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 12,745 times Debate No: 16076
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
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phantom

Pro

On my previous debate for this subject my opponent forfeited all the debating rounds, so I thought I would do it again. I will likely copy and paste my argument on that debate for this debate.

I set the requirement as only a member ranked as good as or better than me as I want to have a good debate without forfeits unlike the previous one.

I trust my opponent will have substantial knowledge of this subject before accepting this debate.



Each of us will be trying to prove that their league is better.

Pro will be attempting to give convincing evidence that the EPL (English Premier League) is better than the Spanish la liga.

Con in the same way will be attempting to give convincing evidence that the la liga is better than the EPL.

As each of us are doing the same thing only vise versa we each hold the burden of proof.


Wikipedia may be used but only for definitions such as the following:

Definitions:
Spanish la liga: http://en.wikipedia.org...

English Premier league: http://en.wikipedia.org...


My arguments will be based on how good the teams in the leagues are, and how many good teams their are, how good the players are and how many their are in each league, how strong an attraction each league has to foreign players, how tough the leagues are. etc....

1st round for acceptance. Debating starts in round two.
MrCarroll

Con

I will argue for La Liga; this doesn't necessarily mean I necessarily favor La Liga over the Premier League in real life. I actually love watching both.

Anyway, good luck!
Debate Round No. 1
phantom

Pro

First I would like to thank my opponent for accepting this debate. And I am thrilled that an opponent who seems to have good knowledge of this subject has accepted it.

Just to clear up one issue that might come up. Some of my statistics may not appear to be valid when reading this debate because statistics are always changing. So I might say that Barcelona have scored this many goals but then when you click on the link it says they’ve scored this many goals. But the reason for that is that they have just scored a few goals since I put up the statistic. Just something to keep in mind.

Arguments:

(1) My first point is that The EPL (English Premier League) has more good teams. Good meaning teams that are capable of playing at the highest level.
The EPL has 6 teams that are capable of competing for the Premiership title. Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester City, and Tottenham. Tottenham is the most debatable but I think they are contenders.
The La Liga only has 2: Barcelona, and Real Madrid. The other eighteen teams just fight for champions league spots, Europa league spots, or survival in the La Liga. Real Madrid and Barcelona are called the two giants because they are the only clubs in Spain that compete for the league title or champions league. Other Spanish teams make it to the champions league, but they rarely get far.
To confirm this fact let me show you a statistic. Right now in La Liga, 3rd place Valencia are 14 points behind 2nd place Real Madrid.

http://www.soccer-spain.com......

This is a huge gap if you compare it to the EPL, where their is a 0 gap points difference. Their is a 59 point gap difference from 1st place to last in La Liga. In EPL their is only a 38 point gap, Which proves my point that the premier league has more teams that are at the same level. All the EPL's best teams are at the same level. And all of these teams are able to compete with all the other leagues best teams. Meaning that the premier league contains 6 of the worlds best teams (although Tottenham might be debatable).

http://www.premierleague.com......


Here are two charts I made that further confirm my claims.

http://www.debate.org...

http://www.debate.org...


Let me just clarify I am not saying 6 teams are fighting for the EPL title right now. But at the beginning of next season you can say one of those 6 teams are going to win it.
Also all six teams can succeed in the champions league. Unfortunately only four teams are able to qualify for it each year but all English clubs (except Arsenal) finished top of their group, in the group stages.

http://www.uefa.com......

http://www.uefa.com......


(2) Obviously if a league has good teams it must have good players in those teams.
As I have said the EPL has 6 good teams. So it also has many good players, and is a stronger attraction for players from foreign leagues to come to the EPL. However it is not just from those teams that you find world class players in this league. Here is proof that there are good players in many different clubs in the EPL.

Newcastle, a team that only just got promoted to the Premier League (after being relegated 2 seasons before), just sold their best player (Andrew Carrol) in the January transfer window to Liverpool for 35 million pounds. That is a British transfer record. Newcastle also has other world class players, such as Jose Enrique. He has been linked with many top clubs, including Liverpool (who are in need of a new left back) and Tottenham. Joey Barton has been one of the Premier leagues best players this season. Kevin Nolan has also had a very enjoyable season so far. Newcastle currently sit 9th in the table.

http://www.premierleague.com......

Note I am not just mentioning the clubs best players, but players who have been linked with big clubs, sold to big clubs, or have been performing very well. For example I won't mention Fulhams Bede Hangeland, even though he is one of their best players. And is considered a good player.

Another good example is Blackpool (17th) who, like Newcastle just got promoted to the Premier league. Charlie Adam is their play maker. And has been linked with, Man U (Manchester United) Liverpool, and Man city. His price is around 13,000,000 pounds.

There are many such examples so I will try to be quick in showing some of the remainders.

Birmingham city keeper Ben Foster, is one of the best keepers in the premier league, and Birmingham are currently 15th place in the league. To prove this I will show you he currently has the most saves of any keeper in the league this season. I cannot offer a link to the website as you need to have an account for fantasy premier league to see it but I turned it into an image.

http://www.debate.org...


Wigan Athletic currently sit 17th in the league. Charles Nzogbia is one of their wingers and has been linked with probably any team in need of a winger. Including Manu, Liverpool, and Chelsea.

19th place west ham have a highly rated Scott Parker.

10th place Aston Villa, have Ashley Young (arguably England's best winger) who has been linked with many clubs, Striker Gabriel Agbonglihor (one of the top scorers two seasons ago), Darren Bent, (Just moved to Villa for 18million), and Stewart Downing is also a good player.

I will probably mention more teams/players in future rounds.


(3) For the sake of argument lets think what would happen if you combined the Premier League with the La Liga, so that it was a 40 team league, with 8 teams qualifying for Champions League. And six teams getting relegated. The result would be 2 Spanish teams and 6 English teams playing in the Champions League.
Barcelona are I must confess the best team in the world so they might win the league, and Real Madrid might as well. But they would be the only Spanish teams competing for the title, and the only Spanish teams who would qualify for the champions league.
I think I have proven the quality of even the teams at the bottom of the table in the EPL, so my guess would be of the 6 teams getting relegated most or all of them would be Spanish.

(4)Spain is great at soccer and they have one of the very best national teams, but the problem is their countries system is not as good as England's in football terms. England is more professional and modernized in how they set up the teams. That is why they have so many good teams. They have good coaches, good youth systems, and good training techniques. Don't get me wrong, Barcelona have one of the best youth systems and coach's in the world, and Real Madrid have probably the best coach in the world (Jose Mourinho). But their country is not as modern as England's. Even the EPL's "worst" teams have a good set up.

That is why so many goals are scored in Spain. Barcelona have 88 goals in 33 games, Manchester United have 71 in 34 games (both teams top of the table). The teams defense in England is clearly better. Manu probably have the best defense in the world, with the likes of Nemanji Vidic, Rio Ferdinand, and Patrice Evra playing at the back, and Edwin Vander Sar in goal.

http://www.premierleague.com...

http://www.soccer-spain.com...

I will now finally go to bed!

MrCarroll

Con

Responses:

(1) "The EPL has more good teams. Good meaning teams that are capable of playing at the highest level."
My opponent does not specify what the "highest level" is. I would personally assume that the highest level would be playing in a top league, or else these players wouldn't be paid as much as they are. In fact, this debate is very dependent upon what the "highest level" actually is. I think what you meant to say was the EPL has more title contenders. Firstly, I would like to point out that only three of these teams have won the title in the Barclays Premier League, those were Manchester United, Chelsea, and Arsenal. In fact, those are the only teams that really had a realistic chance of winning it this year. Manchester City is on the verge of competing because of their huge wealth, yet they don't have a proper coach or proper team unity to really contend for the title. Perhaps you meant wealth as five of the teams being extremely rich (maybe soon to be six with Blackburn being bought). But I don't think wealth makes a league great.

My opponent claims La Liga has only two "good teams." Again, if you mean title contenders then you are right, however, if you mean high level of play you have Valencia, Villareal, Atletico Madrid, and Sevilla, who I dare say would give a mighty fine challenge to any top EPL team. You may say, well they can't touch either the likes of Barca or Real Madrid, yet who can? The question is, if the EPL and La Liga combined, would Chelsea or Man United be any closer than Valencia? That's not even considering the likes of Arsenal, Man City, Bolton, or Tottenham. What I'm saying is that there is no evidence that Man City and Arsenal are any better than Villareal and Valencia.

"All the EPL's best teams are at the same level."
This is a complete joke; WBA, Wigan, Wolves, and West Ham are not on the same level as the top four and so on. What you mean is that they are capable of beating each other, yet this is non-unique. I think it was Hercules, the last place team, that beat Barcelona 1-0 and Osasuna who beat Real Madrid 1-0 all this season. If these team could not compete in the leagues they are in, then they wouldn't be competing.

(2) "As I have said the EPL has 6 good teams." I think I have shown that this statement is incorrect, or incorrectly stated. "So it also has many good players, and is a stronger attraction for players from foreign leagues to come to the EPL." The second statement is based on the first, therefore, it is already invalid. But lets take your point that the EPL is littered with world class players. You take the example of Andy Carroll from "Newcastle a newly promoted team!" Newcastle is one of England's most prestigious clubs; they had a rough year, which was certainly not due to player quality. They destroyed in the second tier football once they got it together. Andy Carroll has been under the eye of top teams since Newcastle was previously in the EPL. Joey Barton was an international. Nolan was unreal when he was at Bolton.

Secondly, its not unusual to have averaged positioned teams with world class talent. David Villa previously played at Sporting Gijon, Zaragosa, and Valencia before coming to Barcelona. Look at the likes of Eto'o, Milito, and Canales.

(3) "Barcelona are I must confess the best team in the world." Interesting. I'll come back to this. My opponent claims that there would be 2 spanish teams and 6 English teams competing for Champions League places if the leagues were combined. I would argue that nothing says Valencia, Atletico, and Villareal wouldn't also compete for the spot. Also, he suggests that most of the teams being relegated would be Spanish. I really don't think my opponent has proven Spanish teams are lower quality then English teams.

(4) "England is more professional and modernized in how they set up the teams. That is why they have so many good teams. They have good coaches, good youth systems, and good training techniques." I don't think anything supports this assertion. Barcelona and Real Madrid have very good youth systems, bigger stadiums, just as good coaches (if not better), and clearly better training techniques.
Pro asserts that the defense is better in the Premier league because less goals are scored. But this is illogical because the more likely reason for the famous Barcelona blowouts is because of outrageous attacking skill that cannot be matched anywhere else in the world. Statistically, Barcelona have a better defense than Manchester United, and Real Madrid certainly have a formidable defense with the likes of Ramos, Pepe, Carvalio, and Casillas.

I think my opponents arguments are not very conclusive, and thus I move on to my own.

I. La Liga has the best players in the world.
The best league should have the best players, and La Liga has owned the world's best players in the past and in the present. Let's see what some of the recent FIFA World Players of the year were:
1994 – Romario
1996, 1997 – Ronaldo
1998 – Zidane
1999 – Rivaldo
2000 – Zidane
2001 – Figo
2002 – Ronaldo
2003 – Zidane
2004, 2005 – Ronaldinho
2006 – Cannavaro
2007 – Kaka
2008 – C. Ronaldo
2009 – Messi [1]
Each of these players were/are La Liga players. Can the Premier League come close to that statistic? Currently Messi is the best player in the world. He can do things with the ball that no one could or will do in the history of football. If we had to destroy either the EPL or La Liga, I think we would have to destroy the EPL so that we could continue to watch Messi and his rival, C. Ronaldo arguably the second best player. Actually, in second and third currently are Xavi and Iniesta. In fact, there are plenty of players with world class skill that can't be found in the EPL such as Villa, Higuain, Oezil, Aguero, Nilmar, Rossi, Kaka, Mata, etc. No one can watch such amazing skill anywhere other than La Liga, which brings me to my next point.

II. The style of play in La Liga is much more attractive then the EPL.
The English style of football has always been more direct, less fancy, and full of crunching challenges, while Spanish football is known for slick passing and daring dribbles. Players like Xavi, Xabi Alonso, and Valero are known for their sublime passing skills. Of course, Barcelona is by far the best passing team in the world, able to pass through the best defenses. Also, La Liga has displayed acts of dribbling that are unrivaled anywhere else. Take Messi's goal against Getafe, or Ronaldinho against Madrid.
The Spanish style of football can be exemplified by their national team, which won the World Cup. The only three national team players that don't play in La Liga are Fabregas, Torres, and Silva none of whom started the national team on a regular basis. England, all their players being from the EPL as far as I know, didn't do so well.

III. La Liga has the two best teams in the world.
My opponent has already admitted that Barcelona is the best team in the world. Real Madrid has generally kept up with Barcelona throughout the title race and beat them in the Copa del Ray. Combined, they have billions of dollars worth of players. When the two teams play each other, a game called the El Clasico, the most entertaining, intense football I have ever seen is played. There are typically red cards, insane goals, fights, penalty kicks, Ronaldo diving, Messi mocking defenders, etc. No games in the EPL can emulate such a dramatic and entertaining rivalry than the El Clasico. For more information on the El Clasico, http://en.wikipedia.org...

IV. Bolton just beat Arsenal
I don't know if this is relevant. I just wanted to point it out.

Conclusion –
Audiences who want to watch the best players, the most attractive style, and the best two teams in the world want to watch La Liga.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
phantom

Pro

I showed that they can compete in both their league and the champions league. I did also say the EPL has more title contenders.


//I would like to point out that only three of these teams have won the title in the Barclays Premier League, those were Manchester United, Chelsea, and Arsenal.//
So the other teams would be Liverpool, Mancity, and Tottenham.
I will argue each team individually.

Liverpool: Liverpool have never won the premier league however they and Manu are the most successful English clubs. They have won an equal amount of titles. The only reason they haven't won the premier league is because the premier league wasn't called the premier league until the late 90's.[1] They are also the most successful English club in terms of the champions league. So there is no doubt that Liverpool are a top club.

Manchester city: A couple of years ago I think it was, Mancity became one of the (if not the) richest clubs in the world. Unfortuntley money does by success; teams like Chelsea, Real Madrid and Mancity have proven that. Mancity have one of the best teams on sheet in the EPL. So far they have bought the likes of Carlos Tevez, (Currently 2nd top scorer and was one of the top last season.[2] the Toure brothers, Silva, Joe hart, Adebeyor (on loan), Edin Dzeko, James Milner, Gareth Barry, Richards, Adam Johnson and more. I hate Mancity with a passion but I'm afraid there is no doubt they are a top club. They were second place not long ago by the way.
I think so far I have given good reason that there are at least five top clubs in the EPL.

Tottenham: Like I said Tottenham are the most debatable but I think there is good reason to believe that they are a top team.
Their manager Harry Redknapp is one of the best managers in the world. When he took charge of Tottenham a few seasons ago Tottenham were lingering in rellagtaion battle. Then Redknapp came and now they have been a serious contender this season. There have also been numerous cries for Redknap to become Englands manager as Fabio Capelo has not been doing well. They are currently 5th place (1place ahead of Liverpool). They are also fairly rich. They were doing very well in the champions league this season as well. And beat the likes of Inter Milan 4-0. they have Rafael Vander Vart, (one of the best players this year) unfortunately he was injured for part of the year. Gareth Bale, probably the most talked about player at Tottenham. Modric, and Defoe (scored either 4,or 5 goals for England I cant remember before getting a long term injury)
Tottenham also finished fourth last year


//In fact, those are the only teams that really had a realistic chance of winning it this year.//

Wrong. Mancity were second place not too long ago. And have had one of the most outstanding players this year Carlos Tevez and one of the most outstanding keepers Joe Hart.

I strongly negate the fact that Valencia, Villarreal, Atletico Madrid, and Sevilla should be considered top teams. And if any of those teams should be considered so, than I say all six teams I mentioned are definitely top teams and more. None of those teams did well in the champions league for the ones that qualified and, as previously shown,[3] there is a large gap from Real Madrid to Villareal.
As I provided evidence for the six teams I claimed to be top, I ask my opponent to do the same in the next round.

I still strongly support the fact that the EPL has six while the La Liga has two teams capable of playing at the highest level.


//"All the EPL's best teams are at the same level."
____

This is a complete joke;// etc...

I think my opponent has greatly misunderstood me. I do not see how though. I claimed six teams are "top" in the EPL. Where my opponent got the idea that WestBrom Albion, Wigan Athletic, and Wolverhamton Wanderers were included is beyond me.
And by the way the EPL's bottom teams beat the top teams all the time. Manu were unbeaten for a long time, then they played Wolves and lost.

//(2) "As I have said the EPL has 6 good teams.

" I think I have shown that this statement is incorrect, or incorrectly stated.//

So my opponent claims teams like Tottenham and Manchester City are not top teams in the EPL yet teams like Atletico Madrid and Sevilla are for the La Liga!!? Yes I think the double exclamation marks were appropriate.


//Newcastle is one of England's most prestigious clubs; they had a rough year, etc..//

I don't see how these claims refute my argument. I think it helps it. I do not see cons point.

//Secondly, its not unusual to have averaged positioned teams with world class talent. David Villa previously played at Sporting Gijon, Zaragosa, and Valencia before coming to Barcelona. Look at the likes of Eto'o, Milito, and Canales.//

That's the problem with the La liga. All the good players that play for average teams move to Barca or Real. Unlike the EPL.

But my opponent has confused me again. He states it is not unusual for an average positioned team to have players with world class talent. Then he mentions Valencia. Earlier my opponent stated Valencia were top, now he is saying they are average. I always viewed Valencia as the third best Spanish team.
My opponent is only helping me prove my point in this.


//I would argue that nothing says Valencia, Atletico, and Villareal wouldn't also compete for the spot. Also, he suggests that most of the teams being relegated would be Spanish. I really don't think my opponent has proven Spanish teams are lower quality then English teams.//

Okay so Valencia isn't an average team again.
I showed the quality of the EPL's lower positioned teams. My opponent needs to show the quality of the La Liga's low positioned teams in order to refute my claims. I have also shown that the gap in points between the EPL's worst teams and the best teams is quite small when compared to La Liga's (38 for EPL 59 La Liga) [3] [4]

//Barcelona and Real Madrid have very good youth systems, bigger stadiums, just as good coaches (if not better), and clearly better training techniques.//
I did say they had a good set up. My argument was for the other teams. All my opponent has done here is restate what I said.

//Pro asserts that the defense is better in the Premier league because less goals are scored. But this is illogical//

Uh but latter con states that EPL is known for it's tackling.


I address my opponents first argument:
Every single one of those players played for either Barca or Real for the main part of their career. This is quite good evidence to support my statement that those are the only two good teams in Spain. In fact I think it proves it.

Christiano Ronaldo spent almost all his career at Manu before going to Real for 80million.

Kaka spent most of his carreer at Acmillan and it was certainly the best part as he hasn't done much at Real so far and was player of the year at Millan.



I adress my opponents second argument.

It is true that the La Liga is often more entertaining, but why is that relevant? My opponent is addressing wo different styles of play. Whose to say which one is better?

My opponent has helped support my claim that the EPL defense is better by stating that the EPL is known for it's tackling. Thank you.

And Alonso played for Liverpool most of his career. And the EPL has teams like that too. Arsenal are one of the most enjoyable teams in the world to watch.

//. La Liga has the two best teams in the world.//
That is a big assertion. Real Madrid have not won the Champions league since 2001, I think it was. And have not won the La Liga for a while.

//When the two teams play each other, a game called the El Clasico//

I do recall Barca beating them 5-0 in that match. But what’s your point they have those in the EPL too only more.

//Ronaldo diving//

That's another problem with the La Liga, their players are always diving!


I would like to point out that my opponent has broken my rule that Wikipedia may be used but only for definitions.

Sources:

See comments
MrCarroll

Con

Liverpool: But are they capable of playing at the top level? Still, my opponent has not defined what this supposed "top level" of football is. If Liverpool are a top team, why are they failing to progress in the Europa League and not even challenging for a Champions League spot? You'll also notice Villareal has progressed in the Europa League.

Man City: Here we have the opposite case as Liverpool. Historically, a very average team, but they have become rich and are competing for a Champion's League spot. Just because they were second place at one point doesn't mean they are a top club. There has to be some sort of criteria for a top level football team.

Tottenham: "they have been a serious contender this season." Hardly. They have not been title contenders but Champions League contenders. The two are very different. They are now out of the Champions League, Shalke made it farther than them.

The point is not that these are bad teams. The point is Pro has given no reason why Valencia, Atletico, Villareal, and Sevilla are not up to the level of these "top teams." Well, actually my opponent gave one reason: they have not been as successful in the Champions League.

However, if you judge the teams by Champion's League performance, it should be noted that Manchester City has not even qualified before this year and Tottenham only made it to the quarterfinals where Real Madrid easily eliminated them. Pro also mentions the gap between the 3rd –6th La Liga teams and Barcelona and Madrid. Does this mean Valencia, Atletico, and Villareal are bad? The other more likely possibility is that Barcelona and Madrid are simply amazing teams that the other teams can't keep up with.

"All the EPL's best teams are at the same level."

I did misunderstand my opponent here. However, the assertion that the "best teams" (I suppose including Liverpool and Tottenham) are at the same level is wrong. Manchester United has been in either 2nd or 1st place for as long as I have watched football. They've dominated the league for a while. I have previously explained why Liverpool, Man City, and Tottenham are not quite there yet either.

"So my opponent claims teams like Tottenham and Manchester City are not top teams in the EPL yet teams like Atletico Madrid and Sevilla are for the La Liga!!? Yes I think the double exclamation marks were appropriate."

I don't think Pro has proven otherwise.

"I don't see how these claims refute my argument. I think it helps it. I do not see cons point."

My point was that of course Newcastle will have good players. Its Newcastle. Your example is not a good one.

With regards to the Valencia statement, I think you took my words out of context. The point was, he played for Gijon, moved to Zaragosa, and then went to Valencia and Barcelona. I didn't mean that Valencia was an average team, I think that's a petty argument by my opponent.

Also, the point gap is a poor argument as well. It does not mean the Premier League is better than La Liga, it could simply mean that Barca and Madrid are practically unstoppable.

"//Pro asserts that the defense is better in the Premier league because less goals are scored. But this is illogical//
Uh but latter con states that EPL is known for it's tackling."

What I meant by "crunching tackles" was tackles that break people's legs. When a team tries to play good football in England, (Arsenal *cough) they get their legs broken in half. I didn't mean their defense is particularly better. With regards to defense, the Italian league is undoubtedly the best.

On my own arguments:
I. "Every single one of those players played for either Barca or Real for the main part of their career. This is quite good evidence to support my statement that those are the only two good teams in Spain. In fact I think it proves it."
Actually, with that logic, you could prove that Barcelona and Madrid are the only two good teams in the world.

Manchester United owned Ronaldo; not anymore. So what's the best league in the world? And did you see Kaka in the game vs. Valencia? He was world-class. He's been unlucky with injury in the past.

II. "It is true that the La Liga is often more entertaining"
My opponent admits that La Liga is more entertaining. Why do people watch football? Because they want to be entertained. That is why Arsenal have so many fans. Sadly, they can't pull off entertaining football and win titles like La Liga teams can.

III. Real Madrid have an amazing set of players, ranging from rising stars to players already recognized as the best in the world. They have more good players than they can play at once. I'm pretty certain that all you must do is watch them to see they are the second best team in the world.

IV. I don't think you've seen very many Clasicos. They're more intense than any EPL games i've seen.

"That's another problem with the La Liga, their players are always diving!" And EPL teams don't dive?
Debate Round No. 3
phantom

Pro

First off I would like to thank my opponent for what has been one of the most enjoyable debates I have done on this site.

Let me show how Liverpool are a top team.

For the beginning of this season Liverpool had what was probably their worst manager in the history of the club (Roy Hodgson). Earlier this year Hodgson got replaced by Kenny Dalglish (praise the Lord!).

Dalglish has done an amazing job at Liverpool since he’s come in. Liverpool were around 16th place when he took over, now they are 5th place. Considering he only took over last January that is an amazing feat.

Liverpool were on the worst streak in a very long time. The players were not performing, morale was very low, the Managers tactics did not fit Liverpool at all, fans were angry etc...Now Liverpool are 5th place, just one behind a champions league spot. They have scored in all of their last 16 games. They were one of the only teams to beat Manunited, they beat Man city 3-0, they just beat Birmingham 5-0, today they beat Newcastle 3-0. If Andy Carroll continues with the form he had at Newcastle Liverpool will have one of the best attacks in the EPL, with Luis Suarez, Andrew Carroll, and Dirk Kuyt who is on extremely good form right now.

One reason king Kenny (as we like to call him) has lifted Liverpool so much is because he is THE greatest legend in Liverpool history. Both as a player and as a manager. He has lifted the morale extremely high. So many of the Liverpool players are performing well, while before he came were performing badly. He’s always cracking jokes which further lifts the players and the fans morale.

Man City: What about the list of players I mentioned that show they have on of the very best teams on paper? Man city have been one of the best clubs this season. I don’t think there has been a time when they haven’t been in the top four this season. And yes they didn’t qualify for the champions league last year the reasons for which are because there are too many good teams in the EPL for all of them to qualify. Tottenham beat them to the spot with Man city finishing 5th.

Tottenham: I still have strong evidence that spurs are a top team. They have been the best English club in the champions league this year. They were unlucky to draw Real Madrid so early in the competition. And they have been a serious threat to whomever they face in the EPL. And they have one of the best managers.

My opponent seems to forget that he holds the BOP just as much as me. I have given much evidence to my claims of the six teams I mentioned. My opponent has given almost none for the ones he mentioned with the exception of the obvious Barcelona and Real Madrid. I have done a much better job then my opponent of arguing the superiority of these teams. Unfortunately even if con does provide evidence I won’t be able to refute it as this is the last round.

//the point is Pro has given no reason why Valencia, Atletico, Villareal, and Sevilla are not up to the level of these "top teams."//

THIS IS NOT MY JOB TO PROVE. Again like I said earlier con seems to forget that he holds the BOP as well. He has not made many claims that these teams are capable of playing at the top level. It would be my job to refute these claims, but as I have given much evidence for Man city Tottenham etc…I think the readers will find that those teams are not as good as them.

//Pro also mentions the gap between the 3rd –6th La Liga teams and Barcelona and Madrid. Does this mean Valencia, Atletico, and Villareal are bad?//

Not bad, average.

//The other more likely possibility is that Barcelona and Madrid are simply amazing teams that the other teams can't keep up with.//

As the gap is from Madrid down, Barcelona need not be mentioned. However my opponent has not given nearly enough evidence to support the fact that Real Madrid are simply amazing.

// don't think Pro has proven otherwise.//

Again I have given more proof than my opponent so yes I have proven so.

//My point was that of course Newcastle will have good players. Its Newcastle. Your example is not a good one.//

I still think it’s a weak argument. Newcastle are currently 12th place. If a team my opponent says '"will of course have good players" is bellow mid table it is strong evidence for my statements that the EPL has many good teams, which in turn supports my statements that the EPL has a strong attraction to foreign players and that the EPL is tougher to survive in.

//With regards to the Valencia statement, I think you took my words out of context.//

If so, it was completely unintentional.

//the point was, he played for Gijon, moved to Zaragosa, and then went to Valencia and Barcelona.//

My opponent still only gave one example, while I gave many; Foster, Carroll, Young, Parker, Downing, Charlie Adam, Barton etc…

Therefore I win that argument.

//What I meant by "crunching tackles" was tackles that break people's legs. When a team tries to play good football in England, (Arsenal *cough) they get their legs broken in half. I didn't mean their defense is particularly better. With regards to defense, the Italian league is undoubtedly the best.//

My opponent acknowledges the fact that it would be difficult for Spanish teams to play football in the EPL. //When a team tries to play good football in England, (Arsenal *cough) they get their legs broken in half.//

Saying the Italian league is the best at defense is irrelevant as they do not have anything to do with this debate.

And the small amount of goals conceded by EPL teams compared to La Liga teams shows the quality in defense. I disagree when my opponent says Barca have the best defense. I say Manu do; let me prove so.

Vidic is a favorite for the player of the year reward. Ferdinand was the best defender in the world a few seasons ago and still is very good. Patrice Evra is a good defender and is Frances number 1. Oshea is a good defender as well. Smalling has done a fantastic job covering for injured players and in my opinion should start games even when the whole team is fit. Manunited have one of the best record this season for goals conceded.[1]

//Actually, with that logic, you could prove that Barcelona and Madrid are the only two good teams in the world.//

This implies that my opponent thinks the players he mentioned represent all of the best players in the world. Sorry but that’s ridiculous. There are many good players who have played for English clubs. Unfortunety I have no space to list any.

//Manchester United owned Ronaldo; not anymore. So what's the best league in the world?//

My opponent mentioned players who used to play in Spain such as Ronaldinho, so I do not see his problem with me saying that. I was merely pointing it out that his best years were at Manu, in fact he was sold for 80million pounds which is the record.

// Why do people watch football? Because they want to be entertained.//

Being entertaining does not make one thing better than the other, especially in football.

//Real Madrid have an amazing set of players, ranging from rising stars to players already recognized as the best in the world. //

Con refrains from mentioning a single players name. If Real have so many good players it should be easy to do so.

//They have more good players than they can play at once. I'm pretty certain that all you must do is watch them to see they are the second best team in the world.//

My opponents “proof” is that if you watch them play you will see they are the second best. Asking the audience to find their own evidence is not evidence at all and therefore can be discarded.

//And EPL teams don't dive?//

You’ll get players in any league that dive but no league is it most uncommon is the EPL. It’s the same with the National team. If you read English player autobiographies as I have done they always write about what other national teams do in order to win. It is not tolerated as much in the EPL both by the fans and the staff.

Thanks again to my opponent for a fun debate.

[1]http://www.premierleague.com...

MrCarroll

Con

It's been a good debate my friend. Thanks for letting me be a part of it.

I. Liverpool a top team
According to my opponent, Liverpool have been poor of late because of "their worst manager in the history of the club (Roy Hodgson)" Firstly, Hodgson, while his tactics may not of suited the players entirely, is an exceptional coach. To say he is the worst manager in the history of Liverpool is quite a statement.

Pro's arguments pertaining to the greatness of Liverpool are weak. Just because the team is in exceptional form at the moment does not mean they are a "top team." (I still don't know what the criteria is for a top team) Just so you know, Everton, Fulham, and WEST BROM (coached by none other than Hodgson) are in better form that Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal, and Tottenham. [1] Dalglish's fantastic form is not a significant argument in itself. Sure, Liverpool are a great club. Are they as great as Barcelona or Manchester United? Definitely not.

II. Manchester City and Tottenham – these arguments are nothing special. I don't see any hard evidence in either case to prove these are "top teams." Nothing that I couldn't say about Valencia or Villareal.
(Speaking of Tottenham) "They have been the best English club in the champions league this year." I don't believe there is any evidence for this. They were underdogs from the start and the only challenge they had was Inter, a team who has struggled miserably. Well, Real Madrid was the other challenge and they killed the Spurs. Anyway, the players knew this was probably the only chance to play Champions League football in their careers and I commend them for their performance. Top team? I don't think so.

" Again like I said earlier con seems to forget that he holds the BOP as well." True, but Pro forgets that it was he who asserted that La Liga had only two top teams, but gave little evidence for this. I'm not even sure what a top team is.

III. On the gap differential, Pro asserts that it means the likes of Valencia, Atletico, and Villareal are "Not bad, average." I would ask, what is the logic here? What in fact makes these teams average compared to the Premier League?

"However my opponent has not given nearly enough evidence to support the fact that Real Madrid are simply amazing." Forgive me, I figured everyone had seen them play.

IV. "the EPL has a strong attraction to foreign players and that the EPL is tougher to survive in."
I think the first argument makes no sense, foreign players do not necessarily make a league great. The second argument is unfounded.

V. "My opponent still only gave one example, while I gave many; Foster, Carroll, Young, Parker, Downing, Charlie Adam, Barton etc…"

I gave the example of Eto'o, Milito, and Canales. If my opponent would like current examples, I could name Xabi Prieto, Llorente, Baptista, Kameni, Ramis, Diego Alves, etc.

VI. "My opponent acknowledges the fact that it would be difficult for Spanish teams to play football in the EPL. //When a team tries to play good football in England, (Arsenal *cough) they get their legs broken in half.//"

Thus, the EPL is better? I don't see your point.

VII. Man United defense is better than Barcelona's
"the small amount of goals conceded by EPL teams compared to La Liga teams shows the quality in defense." And Barcelona has conceded fewer goals than Man United, therefore, (according to your logic) Barcelona has a better defense (19 GA to 33 GA). If this is wrong, then your statement regarding EPL's defense is wrong. If correct, Barcelona has a far better defense than Manchester United. Either way, I win.

Speaking of Ronaldo, "his best years were at Manu." I don't think my opponent has showed this. As far as I can tell, he plays just as well at Real as he did at United. He's right behind Messi in the race for the Pachichi. Ronaldinho on the other hand, you can tell he's not quite what he used to be.

VIII. "Being entertaining does not make one thing better than the other, especially in football."

I would have to disagree on this point. Why do we watch football? If football were not entertaining, we wouldn't watch it. That's why we don't watch chess. Football is also an art. And then there is one more quality, and that is passion. Some say the Premier League is the most passionate league, and maybe that's correct. But I think one will also find a similar passion in La Liga.

IX. Speaking of Real Madrid –
"Con refrains from mentioning a single players name. If Real have so many good players it should be easy to do so."

I pretty sure I previously named players. For those who don't watch football, a few of them are, C. Ronaldo, Kaka, Benzema, Higuain, Di Maria, Oezil, Xabi Alonso, Lass Diara, Pepe, Ramos, Carvalho, and Casillas. All of them are international starters and definitely world-class. They have two FIFA player of the year, a keeper of the year, and two in currently in the World XI. (Barcelona dominates the World IX and no EPL players are in the XI.) The also have the coach of the year, Jose Mourinho. [2]

X. "You'll get players in any league that dive but no league is it most uncommon is the EPL.."

This is a very incorrect assertion and there's no citation of anything provided. Pro says that English don't tolerate diving very much, and this is true, but Pro also insists that the EPL is very much made up of foreign players. In the past, there was practically no diving in the EPL, but today, it happens nearly every game, just like in the rest of the world. (When will FIFA do something I wonder?)

I hope the readers have enjoyed this debate as my opponent and I have. I hope I have explained to everyone that La Liga has better football than the EPL, the best teams, and the best players in the world. Thank you, Phantom, for the debate. Please vote Con.

[1] http://stats.football365.co.uk...
[2] All this can be found on: http://www.fifa.com...
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by phantom 6 years ago
phantom
No votes? :(
Posted by phantom 6 years ago
phantom
Just to let you know, I do know that Hodgson is a great manager. He just can't manage top teams. He's too defensive. But many of my fellow Liverpool fans agree that he is probably the worst manager in Liverpools history for a long time.
Posted by MrCarroll 6 years ago
MrCarroll
For some things wikipedia shouldn't be used, but for soccer stats? I'll respect the rules though.
Posted by phantom 6 years ago
phantom
Sorry but that was the rule. Your first use seemed to be a definition of el Classico so that one didn't count. but you could have found information on Messi with something other than Wikipedia.
I used websites that weren't in Spanish for stats. http://www.soccer-spain.com...
It would have been easier for me to use it as well. In fact my favorite site for champions leagues facts is on Wikipedia.
And to answer your last question, it's not a credible source.
Posted by MrCarroll 6 years ago
MrCarroll
Aw come on. You put me at a disadvantage! You're making me use the La Liga website for stats which is in spanish. What's wrong with wikipedia?
No votes have been placed for this debate.