The Instigator
Truth_seeker
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
CountCheechula
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Enoch was not raptured but died

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Truth_seeker
Voting Style: Judge Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/1/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 637 times Debate No: 61149
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (2)

 

Truth_seeker

Pro

Non believers can debate on some conditions :

1) stay on topic - no going to the existence of God and the reliability of the Bible
2) no bashing - It's not relevant to the debate
3) you must support your reasoning from the Bible

First round acceptance
CountCheechula

Con

I accept the debate, thanks.
Debate Round No. 1
Truth_seeker

Pro

John.3:13 "No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven."

No one has ever gone up to heaven except Jesus Christ himself. There are several problems with saying that Enoch was raptured as

1) Jesus Christ had not yet come in the O.T

2) The rapture is only for those who believe in Jesus Christ after the establishment of the new covenant (1 Thess. 4:16).

Genesis 5:23-24 says " 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."

Lets now examine the Hebrew phrase "he was not."

Psalms 37:36, "Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found."

Psalms 39:13, "O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more."

Genesis 42:13, "And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not." Why is "he not?"

Genesis 44:20, "And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him."

Matthew 2:18, "In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not." (This prophecy is cited to say that Herod slaughtered all the first-born of the Hebrews)

As we can see, the phrase is commonly used to refer to death.

Enoch walked with God (past tense) implying that he is no longer walking with him anymore.

The phrase "all his days" is used to describe only the days of the person's life and after that, they die:

Gen. 5:5 "5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died."

Gen. 5:8 "8 So all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years; and he died."

Gen. 5:11 "11 So all the days of Enosh were nine hundred and five years; and he died."

In the N.T, Hebrews 11:5 "5 By faith Enoch was taken away [metatithēmi] so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

The Greek "metatithēmi" simply means "to transfer" (1). No where does it mean make immortal.

Acts 7:16 "16 And they were carried back [metatithēmito] Shechem and laid in the tomb that Abraham bought for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor, the father of Shechem."

Gal. 1:6 6 "I marvel that you are turning away [metatithēmi] so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel"

Heb. 7:12 "12 For the priesthood being changed [metatithēmi] , of necessity there is also a change of the law."

Jude 1:4 "4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn [metatithēmi] the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Hebrews 11:13 "13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

It says that all died in faith, not having received the promises (eternal life v. 14-16). How do we explain his death?

Genesis 6:5 "5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Enoch's name means "dedicated" (2). Names in Hebrew reflected the person's destiny and character (3). Enoch was a prophet of God:

Jude 1:14-15

"14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

It is therefore logical to conclude that God removed Enoch from the ungodly men hating him and wanting to kill him for prophesying of the judgement of the Messiah. Enoch died, but when the Messiah comes to reward the righteous, Enoch shall be resurrected because of his faith in God.

Sources:

1. https://www.blueletterbible.org...

2. https://www.blueletterbible.org...

3. http://www.studylight.org...
CountCheechula

Con

- John 3:13 "No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven."
What Bible are we using or at least show the type, it ranges.
Enoch has never left He still is with God in Heaven. Worshiping Him.

1. True
2. Irrelevant

Enoch lived in the pre-flood era. God had heavy communication with Adams lineage. Enoch was bright and his epistle is an amazing read and sheds light on on many questions. Its officialness can be a different debate however.
God basically took him to heaven early than most people back then. Also he didn't suffer death and will never return. He is a man that walked with God and was token and no more.

He replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God." Jesus replied, "The things that are impossible for people are possible for God." Luke 18:27 MKJV

Sources:
biblehub.com/luke/18-27.htm

www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/
Debate Round No. 2
Truth_seeker

Pro

"Enoch lived in the pre-flood era. God had heavy communication with Adams lineage. Enoch was bright and his epistle is an amazing read and sheds light on on many questions. Its officialness can be a different debate however.
God basically took him to heaven early than most people back then. Also he didn't suffer death and will never return. He is a man that walked with God and was token and no more."

You did not support that with Scripture, Hebrews 11 clearly indicates that he died and did not receive the promise, but will receive it when Jesus Christ returns.

"What is impossible with men is possible with God." Jesus replied, "The things that are impossible for people are possible for God." Luke 18:27"

This is in reference to salvation, not with someone entering heaven before Christ.

Luke 18:24-27

"24 And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

26 And those who heard it said, "Who then can be saved?"

27 But He said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."
CountCheechula

Con

Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death...he pleased God." KJV

So your point actually supports my side because here it clearly indicates he never suffered death yet was never found, so that means God took him with Him when he was only 365.

Genesis 6:23 "And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:" 24 "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." KJV

Genesis makes it even easier to understand. So if you want to abide to scripture this is what scripture says.
Debate Round No. 3
Truth_seeker

Pro

Examine the context of this verse.

Hebrews 11:5-6

5 "By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

He was righteous therefore what death did he ultimately escape from? The Second death which is reserved for the unrighteous. Enoch had an intimate relationship with God, but eternal life and the way to heaven can only be found in Jesus Christ.
CountCheechula

Con

CountCheechula forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Truth_seeker

Pro

I rest my case
CountCheechula

Con

Sorry about the forfeit,

I wouldn't say he was rapture, but he didn't experience death at all. He was taken at a young age, and that's the only reason the Bible mentions it. God took him to heaven. I rest my case.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
I believe he was. He would account for the two witnesses in revelation. The other would be Elijah. God did say that it has been appointed unto every man once to die, then the judgment. So, they would have that opportunity to die that once. But only for those 3 days. Then all the world will see them rise up. Never before in history could that have ever happened.
Posted by bladerunner060 2 years ago
bladerunner060
I noticed that the judges weren't listed in R1. I figured it might be nice to have them listed somewhere, so:

(I don't know who, if anyone besides me, has accepted):

mishapqueen, bladerunner060, airmax1227, Pfalcon1318, Jellon, zmikecuber
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by mishapqueen 2 years ago
mishapqueen
Truth_seekerCountCheechulaTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit.
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 2 years ago
bladerunner060
Truth_seekerCountCheechulaTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct for the forfeit, obviously. As to arguments, it rather seemsthat Con conceded half the case in the final round--and his defenses of the other half just weren't convincing. As always, happy to clarify this RFD.