The Instigator
Ozzyhead
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
theocatzop
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Essentially, human beings must pay to live and humans are the only ones who have to pay

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Ozzyhead
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/20/2014 Category: People
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 603 times Debate No: 55065
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (7)
Votes (1)

 

Ozzyhead

Pro

I expect my opponent to refute my claim. The debate shall start in round two, as first round is acceptance. And by pay, I don't just mean monetarily
theocatzop

Con

OK, I accept. But you have to give me some clarifications first: 1) No one can refuse that humans are the only species who pay money to get some things but what exactly do you believe? You have to be more clear.. Do you think that this is unfair? Do you think that this is weird? Please explain.
Debate Round No. 1
Ozzyhead

Pro

Even when you go site seeing. You still get a hotel room. You have to shop for a hotel room. Nothing in this country is free. And we're the only species on the planet that has to pay to live. You have to pay for a house to be built, you have to pay for the land you're using, the food you eat, the bed you lay on, and the way you move. Even hunting has to be paid for. You have to obtain a hunting license to hunt and to do that you have to buy it. You wanna travel to another state? Pay a toll by car or for a ticket by plane or train. You wanna leave this country? Need to pay on your way out. Not a god damn thing moves without money exchanging in this place. In order to be considered an active member of society, you must have a job or you must be a student... that is paying to go to school. When it comes to medicine, if we go straight to the plant that produces the drug, then we can be locked up or fined (marijuana), but if you buy it from a pharmaceutical, then it's okay. Human beings are more evolved than they believe, but human beings have not taking advantage of their evolution. We are not superior to animals, because we charge ourselves to stay alive. Animals do not charge dollars, cents, and labor to it's own kind in order to live. If they can build it, catch it, and run for it, then they can sleep in it, eat it, and live on. We have to pay for the land we use and the materials we take. Go in to the forest and cut down a tree without paying the people that own the forest. Everything in this country is owned, so everyone has to pay for everything.
theocatzop

Con

Look, I have an advice for you. If you want you can pick up your things and go to Alaska like Chris Mccandless did and live a life close to the nature without laws (except for the laws of nature), orders and especially MONEYYY... If you are capable of self-survival and living off the land, you will survive. If not....oh well.

There are a lot of ways for you to survive without paying and it is possible for someone to do so. For instance you said, "Even when you go site seeing. You still get a hotel room. You have to shop for a hotel room".. REALLY? What do you think? That you can stay in someone's personal building without paying him? The food, the warm, the water, the electricity you use.. This is the point of the construction of hotels. They are used to serve people who have nothing else to stay.. And instead of being thankful that there is a place you can stay decently you prefer to complain because it is not free. There is a very simple and easy solution for you: You can stay in the road and sleep on a bunch without spending money at all. But believe me, it is not a very convenient and safe place.

Look, in order to get something you have to give something,too. No one will provide you with material or non goods for free. No one would build your house, prepare your food or design clothes for you if he/she wouldn't get anything as a reward, either it is money or something else. Money is very important for peoples' lives and I think it is better. We have a currency and this way the trades are more fair for both sides as no one could define the value of things. For example, if I gave you two bottles of milk and as an exchange I asked for oil you could not be sure what quantity to give me so that the trade is fair for both me and you.

As for the land that sometimes is considered to be owned by someone I have to tell you that you are partially justifiable because it is something that many people misunderstand. At first, it seems quite unfair for you to pay for something that it is public. But have you ever thought why this happens? Because we want to protect the environment. If everyone went to forests and cut down trees or hunted animals for free what do you think would happen? The forest would become dead and animals would become extinct. And I suppose you can guess the effects in citizen's lives. People can make profit by exploiting the nature but if they have to pay in order to do so they may wouldn't do it as they would not only earn but also spend money.

"Animals do not charge dollars, cents, and labor to it's own kind in order to live. " Yes, and as I said you can do that as well. Instead of exchanging money you could fight with other species in order to get what you want. Is that better? "If they can build it, catch it, and run for it, then they can sleep in it, eat it, and live on." Yes, and why are you so sure that you would be able to do all these things. If you were, you would move to one of those plentiful unowned geographic locations where there is no money and live the life you want. But it is not as simple as you think it it. But you understand subconsciously that it is not as simple as you think it is and you prefer to live in an organized and civilized society.
Debate Round No. 2
Ozzyhead

Pro

What I am saying is this is not an example of advanced beings. Advanced beings wouldn't leave their own out to dry. The fact that not a single movement in this country is done without exchanging hands is sick. We are the only beings charged with having to live. Two jobs and I'm still not able to make it in my own? What's wrong with this image? The fact that someone is not getting out what they are putting in. But forget this. All emotional ties don't matter in debates
Humans pay for mobilization and living. Humans pay for plots of land with no life on them. I do not want to go live in the wild. I want to live among civilized beings who value a human life more than they value a dollar. We send our children off to die for monetary reasons. Sure, terrorism and the spread of democracy were reasons, but if money couldn't be made, then we wouldn't go.
GMC recalled a vehicle that were having issues that essentially caused deadly crashes. They knew of said problem for while before recalling. Why? Because they do an evaluation of lives lost versus money lost. If someone needs to think that the number of lives lost is or isn't worth saving, then we are not advanced. Am I implying socialism? Well if socialism is that man comes before money and not money before man, then yes, I am implying socialism. I do not see a flaw in the idea that the dollar can never hold a value to a life, and a happy civilized life.
theocatzop

Con

Dear pro,
you have not realized something really important:

"Well if socialism is that man comes before money and not money before man, then yes, I am implying socialism. "
Money is not a bad thing but something that make us powerful. And this is what all the beings try to become. All the animals want to become powerful. And this is why people focus on money. If potatoes(for example) made people powerful then everyone would try to have as many potatoes as possible. Everyone would be obsessed in making money. This is not about money itself but human's nature. Even if we abolish money then we will dedicate ourselves to something else that will make us powerful. And this is why money comes first and the human beings in general second. Because first, we have to think about ourselves and make our desires come true in order to be satisfied with ourselves and then we will think about all the people on earth. This is something physical and it is not a bad thing.The human nature make us want to become powerful and this is something all people want to do( some want it more while some others less) and it is a physical need. \1;t is neither selfishness nor greed.. It is 100% physical and moral. "I want to live among civilized beings who value a human life more than they value a dollar" this is impossible to happen just because people should care more for themselves and not for the others. If we care for the others first then we won't get evolved as we will think about other's desires than ours.

"What I am saying is this is not an example of advanced beings" [...] " If someone needs to think that the number of lives lost is or isn't worth saving, then we are not advanced." This opinion is 100% wrong. In fact,the greed and our evolved brain is what made as advanced. Our desire to become powerful has made us try to find different ways to benefit. And this way we invented treatments for diseases, we have developed technologically, discover the world and gain knowledge etc. Human greed is an indication for a civilization that has possibilities to develop.
Debate Round No. 3
Ozzyhead

Pro

No one should build a home for free. Correct! But, the fact that something that is required for living is a charge that we have to pay. Most people that are a part of the modern industrialized world need a house, electricity, water, and heat to live off of. All of those services are not free in the modern industrialized world. Well, we can get our own water by going to a lake 5 miles away everyday, and we can go chop down firewood to make heat, but firewood isn't free. You still have to pay to go get it. Yeah, we should only get out of life what we put in to it, but see money is not powerful. A piece of paper with numbers in the corner are powerless. Something is only as powerful as one makes it out to be.
I think I was very unclear. I didn't make much sense when I started this debate at 3:00AM. I look like an idiot, and I feel like an idiot, and I tried to play it off as if I knew what I was doing. I apologize for the time I wasted. I feel pretty stupid. Thanks for putting up with me, all
theocatzop

Con

Yeah man! You feel like an idiot and you regret about starting this unclear debate (and not giving me the clarifications I asked for).. You say that you tried to play it off as if you knew what you were doing and talking about.. you admit all that but you still ARGUING!!! You mention the same arguments for the third time and in the end you sat that you was vague and you look like an idiot.. But if you thought that your arguments were useless why did you argue too in the 4rth round?? I mean, it doesn't make sense at all...

So, I will rebut your arguments, too...Let's start!:

"Most people that are a part of the modern industrialized world need a house, electricity, water, and heat to live off of. All of those services are not free in the modern industrialized world." OF COURSE THEY ARE NOT FREE!! who would provide you with electricity, oxygenated water and heat for free? Who would build your house for free? In order these things to be available for you, we need some people to work. Would you work for free? NO!! and no one would do that!

" we can go chop down firewood to make heat, but firewood isn't free. You still have to pay to go get it. " The same things again and again! I explained in round 3 why this happens and if you want you can travel to an uncivilized place either to live or just to chop down some firewood and then you can come back!

"but see money is not powerful. A piece of paper with numbers in the corner are powerless. Something is only as powerful as one makes it out to be." Yes, I agree with you.. Something is as powerful as one makes it out to be.. The point is that WE HAVE MADE MONEY POWERFUL!! I think that I have analyzed and explained this too much! Just read the previous rounds...
Debate Round No. 4
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by theocatzop 2 years ago
theocatzop
yeah, ok.. at least you admit that Sagey did not assess fairly. And no problem.. there is no reason for you to apologize it's just a debate..
Posted by Ozzyhead 2 years ago
Ozzyhead
I'm so sorry, I do not want to accept this victory
Posted by Ozzyhead 2 years ago
Ozzyhead
I apologize to my opponent for being a poor debater, and I will personally take it as a loss no matter what the polls say
Posted by Ozzyhead 2 years ago
Ozzyhead
My arguments were not sound. I did receive my opponent's arguments as attacks, but my opponent did not mean to come across in such a way. I do not wish to win this debate. And I personally believe Sagey is for some reason biased towards me. I notice he votes in favor of me very often, hardly ever giving a point to my opponent
Posted by theocatzop 2 years ago
theocatzop
Dear Sagey,
"Even if somebody moved to a country where they could attempt to live off hunting and self sufficiency, they would still be asked to pay taxes and likely squatting fees." Are you kidding me? Who said you such a lie? If you want you can go whenever you want to an unowned place and no one will ask you to pay nothing!!!

BTW: The only reason I was a little bit aggressive is because the pro repeated the same arguments in every round and this was very annoying.. I didn't mean to insult him.. Your votes just show that you didn't observe that and you though that my counterarguments were wrong when in fact they weren't.
Posted by Ameliamk1 2 years ago
Ameliamk1
Animals have to work to attain necessities, just as humans have to work to get money to buy necessities. What's your point, and are you offering some sort of alternative?
Posted by Cold-Mind 2 years ago
Cold-Mind
You should have said exactly what you mean by "pay". How can anyone debate you over something you will define later?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
OzzyheadtheocatzopTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
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Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Con's rebuttals were more attacking Pro than rebuttals, they did not properly rebut Pro's arguments and almost gave Pro a conduct point. Even if somebody moved to a country where they could attempt to live off hunting and self sufficiency, they would still be asked to pay taxes and likely squatting fees.