The Instigator
ironsheik7
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Mikal
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points

Eternal Security Is the Truth (Christianity)

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
Mikal
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/20/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,381 times Debate No: 42715
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (20)
Votes (1)

 

ironsheik7

Con

This argument will be featuring the doctrine of Eternal Security I will be arguing as a Christian against the doctrine of eternal security saying it is a false doctrine that leads souls to hell (con). My opponent who believes in the eternal security of the Christian i.e. once saved always saved it is 100% impossible to lose your salvation, he will be arguing for (Pro)

I ask that my opponent be one who has studied the scriptures and can post many scriptures and put up a good debate, The character count will be set at 6,000 hopefully that is not to many words for people to read

There will be 5 rounds
Debate Round No. 1
ironsheik7

Con

Eternal security is the doctrine that one can't lose their salvation even if you kill someone or kill yourself because you weren't good enough to be saved in the first place. It is a doctrine that supports worldly living and that one can't help but sin, and that one can't lose their salvation even if they turn from the faith and become an atheist, murderer, rapist, pedophile etc because they are eternally secure.

the favorite scripture read for eternal security is

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

They say because of this grace, it's all done and nothing applies to the Christian it's sign, sealed and delivered, we can fornicate, drink, even leave the faith because once you believed or confessed Christ with your mouth Romans 10:9-10 you're eternal secure. Yet is this the kind of Salvation that Ephesians 2:8 is talking about ? The answer is NO

Romans 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

He said grow in grace, because once you come into this grace you have to stay in it, because you gotta keepit, that's why he said grow in grace.

Since we're talking about grace and law, we need to see what the defnition of law even is. We need to know what makes a person a sinner, because if you say we're not under the law no more, then you can't call anyone a sinner, unless you know what they're gonna be convicted by. So now lets read the biblical defintion of sin.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

So transgressing the law is sin and that whatsoever is not of faith is sin ! Then I must say how can a person be eternally secure if they leave the faith having no more faith and having no faith is sin ? The answer would logically be they are no longer saved !

Jesus said the following

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

The world hates Christ, yet eternal security claims that one can embrace the world and be a drunkard, homosexual, adulterer, fornicator, murderer etc.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Paul himself stated 2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

All one has to do is look at the modern worldly church system to see the itching ears of eternal security, as the churches fall into a lifestyle of habitual sin.
Mikal

Pro

The first thing that we need to look at is the process which is known as hermeneutics. This is how the bible should be studied. Most people read the bible and take what they want from it, but this is actually really inaccurate and not the way in which it should be studied.

Hermeneutics - The art and process of studying the bible and trying to decipher the meaning of what the text should mean. Finding out what the author intended for the verse to mean.

Example : When Paul tells women not to speak in church

A fair amount of people actually take this literally and think women are not meant for positions of power and some even believe it means women have no say of what happens in the church. This is far from the truth. He wrote the verse to the Church of Corinthia to address a specific issue the church was having. Now when people read this verse, they could take it and apply it literally and assume that women should not speak which is wrong. The correct way to read this verse is to know that it was intended for that specific church and no one else. This is the methodology everyone should adopt when studying the bible.




The Eight Pillars of Eternal Security.


(1) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29.

(2) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:35-39

(3) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6

(4) Who are kept by the power of God through faith I Peter 1:5

(5) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29

(6) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37

(7) And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that all of which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again on the last day. John 6:39

(8) In whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

A key point in understand these verses, is reading the original manuscripts or trying to break down the original text. A lot of error has occurred in the translations of the bible, especially the King James (which is probably the most inaccurate bible in the modern era). The bible was written from scrolls and manuscripts that were written by different authors and people throughout the span of that time.

When you are reading most of these verses in Hebrew, there is a common word that appears.

תָּמִיד or "Tamid" meaning always. When you read this from a literal standpoint, it is quite clearly saying that Gods salvation will always be with you, or once you are drawn the father will remain with you always. [2]


Also to understand this perspective one must also have a distinct understanding for Calvinism. Calvinism consists of 5 main points, which is most commonly referred to as the TULIP.

T - Total Depravity / The idea that we are born in sin and all are depraved without God ( this is commonly accepted)

U - Unconditional Election - People are elected not by their works or any merit of their own works

L - Limited atonement - Gods atonement (salvation) is limited to a set group of people ( this is a key point in understanding eternal security as well)

I - Irresistible Grace - When God calls the elect into salvation, they can not resist.

P - Perseverance of the saints - This is also referred to as eternal security or once saved always saved.

Verses in support of Calvinism. Here is a basic argument used by John Piper, one of the leading Calvinist and preachers in the church today.

"The view of unlimited atonement takes all the passages that say the death of Christ is “for us” (Rom. 5:8; 1 Thess. 5:10), or for his own “sheep” (John 10:11, 15), or for “the church” (Acts 20:28; Eph. 5:25), or for “the children of God” (John 11:52), or for “those who are being sanctified” (Heb. 10:14) and makes them refer to all human beings. In this “unlimited atonement” view, the sentence “Christ died for you” means: Christ died for all sinners, so that if you will repent and believe in Christ, then the death of Jesus will become effective in your case and will take away your sins."

The first and easiest way to answer this is to figure out if God ever sent anyone to hell on purpose. I will also go into this deeper in the further rounds but keep it simple for now.

Exodus 9:12 - And the Lord [a]hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

Ex 7:3-5 - And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.




{a} Made heavy. In Hebrew word "Kabad"[3] is often used in these verses. When you read it from the perspective in which it should be read, it means God made his heart, heavy, dull and unresponsive ( respectively to salvation) in order to show his power.

Literally God sent him to hell to make a point. I will go into detail in the other rounds due to character limits.


Sources

[1] http://www.merriam-webster.com...
[2] http://biblehub.com...
[3]http://www.biblestudytools.com...
Debate Round No. 2
ironsheik7

Con

Let us look more closely at some of the pillars my opponent posted

[[(1) John 10:27-29.]]

My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. The word follow is in the present tense not in the past tense of someone who once followed and left the fold, but of someone who does it currently. Correct no man can pluck us out of the fathers hand, this is giving a security to the believer that Christ will keep us, but it does not suggest that one can't fall away from the faith ! In fact one can fall away from the Grace that has saved him !

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[[[( (2) Romans 8:35-39]]]]

We learn from Romans 8:35-39 That tribulation nor distress not persecution, nor famine, nakedness etc. can't separate us from God. But why isn't sin listed ? Surely if one can't lose their salvation, then the mighty Apostle Paul would have listed sin among the others. The reason sin is not listed, is because sin can separate us from the love of god.

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

The word Iniquities means - gross injustice, wickedness, SIN

http://dictionary.reference.com...

[[ (8) Ephesians 1:13]]

Throughout scripture Jesus likens the church to a bride and himself as a bride groom.
The holy spirit of promise symbolizes a promise ring given to the bride of Christ (Revelation 21:9 )
A promise ring is a pre-engagement ring

http://en.wikipedia.org...

The Holy spirit dwells in the heart of the true believers which is the earnest of our inheritance (2 Corinthians 3:3)

But what happens if one blasphemes the holy spirit ?

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

One can also reject a gift, many bride to be have broken off weddings.

We can also answer your number 3 here - [[(3) Philippians 1:6]]]

What performs the Good work in you ? The holy spirit of course,it's the holy spirit that regenerates us (John 3:5-8; Titus 3:5). but if one has blasphemed that holy spirit how can it work in one ? The answer is it can not !

[[[[[[The first and easiest way to answer this is to figure out if God ever sent anyone to hell on purpose. I will also go into this deeper in the further rounds but keep it simple for now.Exodus 9:12 - And the Lord [a]hardened Pharaoh"s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.Ex 7:3-5 - And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. ]]]]]]]

Yes God refers to people as vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy(Romans 9), he hardened Pharaoh's heart to show his power to Israel that is why the scripture says Romans 9:17 Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Judas Iscariot was another example of one who served the purpose of God, Christ picked him in order so he would be betrayed and sent to the cross to die for mankind sin.

The word "raised" here in the Greek is exegeir!3; which means 1. to arouse, raise up (from sleep) 2. to rouse up, stir up, incite

It's obvious by the context here that the scripture doesn't mean I created you with the purpose of sending you to hell and making you my enemy for the fun of it. It means God rouse up i.e. stirred you up, incited him, the purpose being that he had the Israelites in bondage, so God hardened his heart in order to show the Egyptians his power ! That is why he kept hardening pharaoh heart, the scripture also says pharaoh began to harden his own heart near the end.

Exodus 8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

I'll looj at some of the TULIp since almost out of Characters

T - Total Depravity / The idea that we are born in sin and all are depraved without God ( this is commonly accepted)

I agree with T

U - Unconditional Election - People are elected not by their works or any merit of their own works

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

L - Limited atonement - Gods atonement (salvation) is limited to a set group of people ( this is a key point in understanding eternal security as well)

1 Timothy says God wants all to be saved not a limited set group.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I - Irresistible Grace -

One can resist and harden there own heart

Hebrews 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Mikal

Pro

My adversary seems fixated on the fact that you can fall away from salvation and tries to point out that some of the verses that I mentioned does not state that salvation is eternal. This is an error on his part.

I am going to make clear just a few verses that state this directly. Some of the verses I used, require context clues to make the assumption that salvation is eternal, while others state it directly .

(a) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:35-39

Quite clearly this is stating that once you accept Christ, nothing will separate you from his love.

(b) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29.


Again saying that no man can leave or lose his salvation. My adversary brings up the point that one can reject salvation. This is also false. God calls people to be saved, we do not have a say in this.

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Even in Hebrew this is not take out of context. Look at the original manuscripts. The word "vayigash" or וַיִּגַּשׁ is used to describe this [1] . Quite literally meaning that No man can come to Christ, unless God the father first draws him near.



My adversary has also did a horrendous drop translating the verse about the pharaoh. I will bring down this verse entirely.


Lets take a look at chapter 7

ג. וַאֲנִי אַקְשֶׁה אֶת לֵב פַּרְעֹה וְהִרְבֵּיתִי אֶת אֹתֹתַי וְאֶת מוֹפְתַי בְּאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם:

פַּרְעֹה וְהִרְבֵּיתִי אֶת this translates to again to Kabad in some translations. [2]

When you read it in the context that it is meant to be read. It is saying

" I (God) will harden (make null or unresponsive) pharaohs heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. This was in the exodus, and the slaves were getting ready to be set free. When Moses confronted God on how to accomplish this that was his response. He would make Pharaoh null to salvation and harden his heart, so that God could bring down his rule in order to show his own glory.

Now for Romans 9

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."


The word raised is not used in the context of exgeir3 as my adversary claims

It is a phrase

The Hebrew context is actually "ξεγε;ρω" or "exegeiro" and is referring to two words "I raised" [3]



He is correct with the translation he uses of this phrase but misrepresents the meaning behind it.

Exegeiro breaks down to

[a] to arouse, raise up (from sleep)
[b] to rouse up, stir up, incite [4]

When read in context the first is referring to the fact that God will awaken Pharaoh from a sleep (metaphorically) and stir up up in him a desire.

When you add both of these verses together. God is quite literally saying he awoke Pharaoh and instilled in him a desire to disallow the request of Moses. At this point God hardened his heart, made him non receptive to the power the request of Moses so that his power would be demonstrated further. He made him null to salvation.

This is not a choice by the pharaoh. While pharaoh did commit the act himself, God forced him to do so as we can clearly see. Pharaohs purpose was to be an example to show the glory of God, for this to happen God had to harden his heart to salvation, as we can see in the original manuscripts.

So the question, has God willingly sent someone to hell and made them non receptive to salvation true? The answer is yes.


For the remainder of this I am just going to focus on a few verses to show that the salvation is meant for a set group of people and God is aware of whom they are.

Premise

[1] If God has already ordained an elect
[2] Then God knows whom will be saved
[3] God calls people to be saved
[4] When God calls people we can not refuse him
[5] therefore when God calls people their salvation is eternal because he has already ordained them

In defense of my Premise

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9 : 24 - 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

(God has called us, I would break this down further but "all" is often used in the Hebrew bible. The context in which "all" is used is not referring to everyone and most people would think but "all" is used in the context of referring "to a group of people" this is the same case with "us" here


Romans 8 : 29-30 - "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."













[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2] http://www.chabad.org...
[3] http://www.blueletterbible.org...
[4] http://m.biblestudytools.com...
Debate Round No. 3
ironsheik7

Con

Rebuke 1

[[John 10:27-29 - Again saying that no man can leave or lose his salvation. My adversary brings up the point that one can reject salvation. This is also false. God calls people to be saved, we do not have a say in this.]]

John chapter 10 verses 27-29 is referring to those that continue in the faith to follow Christ, not those that once made a confession of faith and turned from the faith


Rebuke 2

[[John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Even in Hebrew this is not take out of context. Look at the original manuscripts. The word "vayigash" or וַיִּגַּשׁ is used to describe this [1] . Quite literally meaning that No man can come to Christ, unless God the father first draws him near.]]

God the father draws through christ not through himself, and a person can chose not to believe.

Let us not forget my opponent is taking the Calvinist position and says God died for a select group of people, now we can kill two of his arguments with one stone.

John 2:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Imagine that, Jesus draws all men unto himself, and not a set group, but ALL MEN, this is what is meant by John 6:44 when it says the father which sent me draw him, the father draws all men with the cross ! And as we all know a person can resist and fall away from the faith, we know eternal security is not true, how else can we explain people who have left for atheism ? Are we to believe Atheists are going to live in a heaven with a God they don't even believe in ? According to eternal security yes God choses who he will save not allowing man to have any free will, God made a bunch of robots says Calvinism ! No different than a man walking into an nursery pointing at each one save this, save this, save this one, kill this one, save this one, save this one, kill this one.

Things Children of God Can Do:


1. Fall from grace - Galatians 5:1-4,13

2. Be led away in error - 2 peter 3:17

3. err from the truth - James 5:19-20

4. weak brother may perish - 1 corinthians 8:11

5. fall into condemnation - James 5:12

6. Be moved away from the hope - Colossians 1:21-23

7. deny the lord that bought them - 2 peter 2:1

8. depart from the living God - hebrews 3:12

9. can be a cast away - 1 Corinthians 9:12

10. servants of christ can be cast into hell - Matthew 25:30


Passages on Committng Apostasy

  • 1 Timothy 1:18-21 "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are HYMENAEUS and Alexander"

  • 2 Timothy 2:16-18 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are HYMENAEUS and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.

  • 1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" ( Amazing we have clear scriptrue now that says one can fall away from the faith ! )

  • 1 Timothy 6:20-21 "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."

  • 2 Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."

  • 2 Peter 3:17 "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness"

  • 2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."


The Bible exhorts to faithfulness proves one can be lost

1. Be stedfast immovable 1 Cor 15:58

2. If these qualities are yours 2 peter 1:5-11

3. We will reap if we don't grow weary Gal 6:9

4. be faithfull unto death and i will give you a crown of life Rev 2:10

5. Pratice these things and God will be with you Phil 4:9


calvinism states man has NO free will: Yet Joshua 24:15 states otherwise

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Remeber in round numer 2 when my opponent used the T U L I P ! The letter I he wrote the following in Round 2

I - Irresistible Grace - When God calls the elect into salvation, they can not resist.

Looks like he is in trouble because according to Joshua 24:15 people can resist !


Next in his T U L I P of round number 2 we shall look at the letter L

L - Limited atonement - Gods atonement (salvation) is limited to a set group of people ( this is a key point in understanding eternal security as well)


You heard him folks he said salvation is limited to a set group of people. yet the bible says God is not a respector of persons

Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11-12; 1 Pe 1:17
Mikal

Pro

I am going to start with some rebuttals but I have addressed most of these to start with. The bible is riddled with contradictions and errors if you do not know how to read it.

Just a few

God is the author of evil/God is not the author of evil

God is to be found by those who seek him(Mat 7:8)/God is not to be found by those who seek him(Prov 1:28)

God tempts man (Gen 22:1) / God shall never tempt a man or God tempts no man (James 1:13)

God can not lie (Hebrews 6:18) / God lies (1Kings 22:23)


The key not to this is that there is a multitude of verses that can be taken out of context and perceived as contradictions. This is what my adversary seeks to exploit in his argument. We have arrived at two differing verses, much like the prior ones mentioned.

(1) No man may come unto the father unless he is first called

(2) I will draw "all" men unto me




Rebuttal 1

Limited atonement


Just some points to provide evidence for this.

John 10:15, "I lay down my life for the sheep."

The sheep of Christ are those whom the Father draws to the Son.

"You do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep."

Notice: being a sheep enables you to become a believer, not vice versa. So the sheep for whom Christ dies are the ones chosen by the Father to give to the Son.


There is a fundamental flaw in my adversaries logic, along with most people whom have no idea of what Calvinism really entails. The most basic line of thought is that Calvinism negates free will. Free will and the idea that there is a set group of people whom are elected and shall remained saved are mutually compatible.

The best way I have heard this described is that, "God chooses to remove the blindfolds off some people"

Remember God is aware and knows everything. He knows whom is going to be saved, whom will be saved, and when they will be saved. If god exits he is transcendent and is knowledgeable of all this even at the time in which he created us. Calvinism goes one step further and states, that he has ordained an elect due to this. Free will is compatible with this

The issue is defining what "free will" is.

Each individual person has the choice to accept or deny God. The question is whether or not the invitation is extended to everyone. As we can see through prior verses, most Calvinism believe that it is only extended to a few, and those whom it is extended to will all accept it and remain saved. Even if they were to commit sins, they will be draw back.

Free will works with this in the aspect that it is our choice whether or not that we accept God or turn away from God, limited atonement is just stating it has already be decided.




Rebuttal 2

All


The main thing we need to look at is the word "all". My adversary quite simply claims that this refers to everyone whom is willing to accept salvation. The issue with this is that salvation is not extended to everyone.

I will address this from an argument John Piper presents

Take a look at the following verse

1 John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

"The "whole world" refers to the children of God scattered throughout the whole world. If "the whole world" referred to every individual in the world, we would be forced to say that John is teaching that all people will be saved, which he does not believe (Revelation 14:9-11). The reason we would be forced to say this is that the term propitiation refers to a real removal of wrath from sinners. When God's wrath against a sinner is propitiated, it is removed from that sinner. And the result is that all God's power now flows in the service of his mercy, with the result that nothing can stop him from saving that sinner." [1]


The view of unlimited atonement takes all the passages that say the death of Christ is “for us” (Rom. 5:8; 1 Thess. 5:10), or for his own “sheep” (John 10:11, 15), or for “the church” (Acts 20:28; Eph. 5:25), or for “the children of God” (John 11:52), or for “those who are being sanctified” (Heb. 10:14) and makes them refer to all human beings. In this “unlimited atonement” view, the sentence “Christ died for you” means: Christ died for all sinners, so that if you will repent and believe in Christ, then the death of Jesus will become effective in your case and will take away your sins.

The key to interpreting this is addressing the words that are being used.

Take for example the passages that say

"Christ died for his/the church"

There is no way Christ could die for everyone in this instance. To insinuate this is to presume that "everyone", is the church of Christ. Quite literally the church would have to be everyone and every individual in the entire earth. We know that is not the case though. The "church " that Christ died for is those that are saved. If Christ died for his church, then he died for those that are saved or will be saved, not every individual in the world.

The same logic can be found through every verse my adversary presented .

Take for example the verse he used.

" I will draw all men unto me " (short version)

You often will see "kol" used in these verses and people naturally assume that "all" means "all".

Kol = all

If you look at in the right context Kol in this aspect is referring to the church of Christ or the elect.

kol = all = church/elect


Contention

Eternal Security

To really understand how this works, you have to understand the prior points. The elect can not be lost, they are ordained.



Romans 8:28-30, "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his propose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."

What is evident from this passage is that those who are effectually called into the hope of salvation will indeed persevere to the end and be glorified.




[1] Desiringgod.org



Debate Round No. 4
ironsheik7

Con

My opponent introduces the word "hermeneutics" in order to make himself seem that he will be applying this principle while his opponent me (shall not) Calvinism doesn't apply Hermeneutics but takes passages out of conext. I've studied Hermeneutics and own books, as well as Cd's and dvd's on the subject. Including a Cd and Dvd by Dr. Bob Utley who has Masters in Divinity from Southwestern baptist theological seminary. I own the book "Basic Bible Interpretation by Dr. Roy Zuck", Dr. Zuck was a senior professor emeritus of Bible Exposition at Dallas Theological Seminary and editor of Bibliotheca Sacra.

I also own the book"New Horizons in Hermeneutics" by Dr. Anthony Thiselton who is principal of St. John’s College at Durham University, and a graduate of London and Sheffield Universities. His substantial volume on hermeneutics he Two Horizons, received international acclaim as a standard resource for this growing subject area. I also have dvd's of Dr. Walter Martin founder of The Christian Research Institute. So don't let my opponent fool you with constant verse twisting, because he is not applying hermeneutics in any of his replies thus far !

Now my opponent takes the position of Calvinism, yet let's look at the founder of Calvinism, Mr. John Calvin !

*John Calvin’s Reign of Terror:

• He had Michael Servetus burned at the stake on October 27, 1553,

• Gentile beheaded in 1566,

• 34 women burned at the stake after accusing them of being witches who caused a plague that had swept through Geneva in 1545,

• “Freckles” Dunant dies under torture in February 1545 without admitting to the crime of spreading the plague,

• Several men and women are apprehended including a barber and a hospital supervisor who had “made a pact with the devil.” in 1545,

• 2 women executed by burning at the stake for sorcery by spreading the plague in March 7, 1545,

• Belot (an Anabaptist) chained and tortured – against infant baptism in 1545,

• 7 men executed concerning the plague outbreak in May 16, 1545,

• a child was whipped publicly for calling his mother a thief,

• a girl who struck her parents was beheaded,

• Jacques Gruet accused of writing a poster against Calvin, was arrested, tortured then executed in July 1546,

• and the list goes on, his victims ranging in age from 16-80.

If John Calvin was Elect, then so was Hitler!


Galatians 5:21 - Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Satan said Ye shall NOT
surely die” (Gen. 3:4) which is a direct perversion of what God had just told the man and woman – “Thou shalt surely die” if they sinned against Him (Gen. 2:17). THIS is the same exact message of “Eternal Security” or the diabolical doctrines of Calvinism. This same devil has used “ungodly men,” false teachers throughout history to teach this lie.



For IF (that means it’s possible) after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. ” 2 Peter 2:20-21


Rebuke

[[[[1 John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

"The "whole world" refers to the children of God scattered throughout the whole world. If "the whole world" referred to every individual in the world, we would be forced to say that John is teaching that all people will be saved, which he does not believe (Revelation 14:9-11).]]]

My opponent plays a game of add lib, yet we see nowhere in 1 John 2:2 where it says the "whole" world refers to people scattered throughout the world, so much for my opponent using Hermeneutics ! My opponent fails to understand that salvation is based on those that have faith and continue on in the faith, and that salvation is for the entire human raced based on believing on cross and continuing in the faith ! In fact in the book of Timothy we see men leaving the faith !


Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be few that find it."
(Matthew 7:13,14)

Jesus tells us to enter in the strait gate, he doesn't say the ones I picked will enter in the strait gate and everybody else you will be forced to walk the broad way and go to hell ! Jesus is telling us which gate to enter in which is free will where man must make a choice to enter in the strait gate which symbolizes Christ ! Next we read there be few that find it, the word "find" means To come upon or discover by searching or making an effort. So the people who find eternal life are putting forth an effort, not God making a bunch of mindless zombies and picking eternal life for them !


Rebuke

[["Christ died for his/the church"There is no way Christ could die for everyone in this instance. To insinuate this is to presume that "everyone", is the church of Christ. Quite literally the church would have to be everyone and every individual in the entire earth. We know that is not the case though. The "church " that Christ died for is those that are saved. If Christ died for his church, then he died for those that are saved or will be saved, not every individual in the world. ]]

Christ's church (The Bride) is a holy church without spot or wrinkle not a wordly church based off of the false teachings of the murderer John Calvin.

Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


Thanks for the debate it was fun my friend !
Mikal

Pro

My adversary starts his final round by mocking John Calvin and sharing with us some books that he owns. There are a few fatal flaws with this start

(1) While John Calvin may have ran with the idea of Calvinism, he was not the first to adopt the idea. The concept of Calvinism goes back as far as St Augustine. Augustine taught "double predestination" or the idea and concept that God elects certain people to go to hell [1]. This is some of the earliest stages of what we now call Calvinism.

(2) Listing the wrongs of a person whom discovered something, does not discredit valid evidence. If a well studied atheist discovered the process of hermeneuctics, it would not make the process any less true than if a Christian discovered it. The same line of thought is true here. While we have no right to judge Calvin for his acts (remember this was a different time period all together, and God himself along with many other people in the bible slaughtered countless others), Calvin did come up with a valid and sound theory which was verified and thought to be true by great minds such as Augustine and now which is held by amazing pastors such as Mark Driskol and John Piper.

This was a waste of my adversaries first half of his final round. He accomplished nothing besides ranting at this point and also providing false information such as Calvin being the father of Calvinism. He was given the title because he took the concept and ran with it, not because he was the first to discover or give thought about the concept of it.


Rebuttal

My opponent plays a game of add lib, yet we see nowhere in 1 John 2:2 where it says the "whole" world refers to people scattered throughout the world, so much for my opponent using Hermeneutics !

I have no idea if my adversary just chose not to read what I wrote, or just blatantly ignored it. See my previous round for the meaning of "all" in these passages. He also misunderstood the point that was made. This is using the process of Hermeneutics to the point, my adversary just failed to miss the logical process of thought in how you ascertain the meaning of the word.

As we can see in Revelation 14 :9-11 Jon does not accept that all people will be saved. He clearly acknowledges people are going to go to hell. I am going to copy the previous passage, because it address this point head on and also since my adversary failed to realize this. This is a summary from an argument by Jon Piper explaining the topic at hand.

"The "whole world" refers to the children of God scattered throughout the whole world. If "the whole world" referred to every individual in the world, we would be forced to say that John is teaching that all people will be saved, which he does not believe (Revelation 14:9-11). The reason we would be forced to say this is that the term propitiation refers to a real removal of wrath from sinners. When God's wrath against a sinner is propitiated, it is removed from that sinner. And the result is that all God's power now flows in the service of his mercy, with the result that nothing can stop him from saving that sinner." [2]


Rebuttal 2

The meaning of "The Church"

Again my adversary missed the mark on this. We were reviewing the phrase/verse

"Christ dies for his church"

The argument that was presented was as follows.

Premise

[a] Christ died so that the church would be saved
[b] If Christ died for everyone, everyone would have to be a part of the church
[c] Since everyone is not a part of the church, Christ died for an elect

My adversary did not even touch this point, and just quoted an irrelevant scripture to the topic at hand. He also dropped the most important verse in my prior round.


Romans 8:28-30, "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his propose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."

There is no way around this verse. It literally says for those that God knew would be saved, he predestined to be in the image of his son. It then even goes further to say those whom he did predestined, he also called to salvation.


In Closing

My adversary did not touch the verse in Romans where it clearly states "God predetermines people to be saved" This was dropped entirely from the debate and remains untouched

He also drops my argument for the context in which "all " is used in Hebrew. This also remains untouched

He fails to adequately address the meaning what/whom the church was referring to which I further refuted in the final round.

This debate was riddle with literal meaning of the texts in the bible. My adversary is quick to jump at words that pop out in the English translations such as "all", "whole" and even "harden". When you read this with the intent and perspective of trying to find out what the author was meaning to write it is quite clear.

All in most of these verses refers to a set group of people.

Ending Premise

[1] God ordains a set group of people to be saved
[2] When God calls these people they can not refuse, or will always accept by their own choice
[3] When God calls these people they are forever his and he is fully aware of this prior tot hem being called.


I am going to again leave you with Romans

Romans 8:28-30, "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his propose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."












[1] http://www.reasons.org...
[2] Desiringgod.org
Debate Round No. 5
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Romanii 3 years ago
Romanii
@CynicalDiogenes:
I thought you already believe that the Bible shouldn't be taken literally.
Posted by Romanii 3 years ago
Romanii
@Chengste: I didn't "get my friends to vote". You lost our debate because you refused to refute my video. That is not my fault. Stop blaming your loss on me.

@Ironshiek: I would gladly debate this. I've been looking for a good opponent for some time now.

@CynicalDiogenes: I realize that not all of the contradictions are valid. I realize that some of them are just minor variations. However, there ARE some contradictions in that video which I believe are valid. I know the various methods of Hermaneutics. You don't need to teach me -_-
Posted by CynicalDiogenes 3 years ago
CynicalDiogenes
@Ironsheik and Chengste,
Rather than fixing each case individually, we could try teaching him the different methods of Hermaneutics and showing him how to approach the Bible.
Posted by chengste 3 years ago
chengste
IronSheik Romani whole stand is the video which is not his work, he will not bring anything he believes to be a contradiction under his own work. Then he will have his friends vote so be ready. I have had this debate, he never was able to refute any of the other proofs of scripture. His plan was that you would spend all your time attempting to refute the silly video
Posted by chengste 3 years ago
chengste
No I am not suggesting we either don't have discussions with the other side matter of fact we should, nor am I trying to say that we should not have discussions among ourselves however that should be done only among believers so we do not confuse the lost
Posted by ironsheik7 3 years ago
ironsheik7
[[Romanii "A debate like this will give those who don't understand the idea that the Bible contradicts itself" The Bible DOES contradict itself]]

@Romanii how about you put your money where you mouth is friend and you set us up a debate and i will debate you, can you do that friend ?
Posted by CynicalDiogenes 3 years ago
CynicalDiogenes
The Bible NEVER contradicts itself if the traditional methods of Hermaneutics are applied.

The Bible must be seen as a part of apostolic tradition and the commentaries and the Guidance of Elders(Bishops) and Priests is vital for its interpretation.

"Is ANYone able to quite the original Hebrew or will you-all be using what the Kings of the past chose to create and call "The Bible"?"

you don't need to.The Latin Vulgate and the Greek Septuagint are pretty accurate.The King James Version is among the poorest translations of the Bible, the translators themselves agreed that they could have done a better Job.

Lastly,my Catholic faith says Christians must have faith and open themselves to the grace of God for salvation, and this grace is reflected by doing good works and actions that are worthy of merit.This means that your actions must attempt to imitate the example of Christ, and must give glory to God.

To think that you can do whatever the hell you want after being baptised and you will still go to heaven(a.k.a eternal security) is the most stupid thing I have ever heard.Christianity is not like an insurance policy that will mature automatically when you die.

I am surprised someone is coming to argue for this. Will be interesting to follow.....
Posted by dawndawndawndawn 3 years ago
dawndawndawndawn
Is ANYone able to quite the original Hebrew or will you-all be using what the Kings of the past chose to create and call "The Bible"?
Posted by philochristos 3 years ago
philochristos
There's lots of debates out there between liberal and non-liberal Christians. Here's one between James White and Barry Lynn on homosexuality:

https://www.youtube.com...

Here's William Lane Craig and Darrell Bock debating Marcus Borg and Daryl Schmidt on the resurrection of Jesus:

https://www.youtube.com...
Posted by kbub 3 years ago
kbub
I'm starting to think debating Fundamentalist Christians is becoming too easy.

I wonder how liberal Christianity vs. non-liberal Christianity would look like?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Romanii 3 years ago
Romanii
ironsheik7MikalTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro gave slightly better arguments, pointing out that parts of the Bible do clearly state that all go to heaven. He also cited sources more consistently than Con.