Eternal Torment in Fiery Hell is Not Biblical
Debate Rounds (5)
In Christendom, it is taught that the wicked are eternally tormented in a fiery hell. My position is that this belief is NOT Biblical. First round is acceptance only.
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 - “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all [...] All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.”
These verses teach us that the living know they will die, but the dead do not know or feel anything at all. If the dead are not conscious of anything at all, they obviously feel no pain.
Ezekiel 18:4 - “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die."
This verse teaches us two things: souls are not immortal, they can die, and the punishment for sin is death, not eternal torment.
Job 14:13 - “[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?
Job had been suffering a lot and he just wanted to go to hell. Why? To suffer more? Of course not! Job just wanted to stop suffering in grave.
Acts 2:25-27 - David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ] [...] Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”
Even Jesus was in hell, although he was perfect and never sinned. Why? Because hell is just grave where the dead are.
Revelation 20:13, 14 - “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
Bible hell is not eternal, it delivers up the dead. This means resurrection; the dead will leave grave. Notice how hell and lake of fire are mentioned as two different places. Hell, or grave, is thrown in the lake of fire, which the Bible teaches means the second death, or eternal destruction. That Hell is thrown in the lake of fire means that people won't have to die anymore.
Now, until Jesus was sacrificed for all sins, no soul was allowed into heaven since he was the one who opened its gates, and hell merely contained all the souls of those who had died, good or bad. Since as you have stated, in the old Testiment and to the point when Jesus died, there was nothingness, a void. After Jesus, that's when all the juicy descriptions of eternal punishment begin to arise. So when Jesus descended to hell, he essentially went to all the previously deceased people and to the worthy to heaven. For what those unworthy then faced, let's just hear what Jesus himself said.
"And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, "where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'"
To me, this quote relates to Revelations in that every crime/sin has its own punishment.
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, "You fool!" will be liable to the hell of fire."
Different translations say the name differently, sometimes Hell, sometimes Gehenna, but theologians agree it's the same concept. With this knowledge, Jesus is literally stating that a specific crime receives a specific punishment of fire in the place called Hell.
Also, you quoted Revelations, in which the judgement is held in hell and that death and hell are then thrown into the lake of fire. This does not mean that punishment in hell has ended, for if you read it closely in relation with other passages from Revelations, you see that yes, judgement happens and the worthy reign with Jesus in Heaven, but that the unworthy are thrown into the burning lake.
"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection."
"And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
In both of these, the unholy are cast from God, sometimes for a thousand years or nothingness, then the burning continues.
P.S. Even if you do only suffer for a thousand years until going to heaven, what's the point of being good if the inevitable reward is infinitely good? It wouldn't matter how much pain you go through, the outcome is always going to end with you in eternal paradise. And let's say that the cycle of a thousand years repeats until you are worthy of heaven. Why would God want you to love him out of fear? What's the point of living on earth if you can do better in hell? But personally, I don't think an eternal punishment is logical either. What merciful God has an infinite punishment for a finite offense? That's where the punishment relative to the sins committed makes more sense but once again, if life didn't matter because you can try again in hell, then why not just be born in hell to begin with?
The Greek Scriptures of the Bible make reference to ge'en.nan tou py.ros' 12 times, and five of these times it is directly associated with fire. Translators have rendered this Greek expression as: "hell fire," "fires of hell," "fiery pit," and "fires of Gehenna." Now, let's look at some historical background.
The valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, was outside the walls of Jerusalem. In the first century, it was used as an incinerator for the trash of Jerusalem; sulfur, or brimstone, was used to assist the burning. The dead bodies of criminals undeserving of burial were thrown in the valley. Thus, Jesus spoke of the casting of one’s “whole body” into Gehenna at Matthew 5:29, 30. If the body fell in the constantly burning fire, it was consumed. If the body landed on a ledge, the putrefying flesh became infested with maggots (Mark 9:47, 48). Living humans were not thrown in Gehenna. So, it was not a place of conscious torment.
At Matthew 10:28 Jesus said, "be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." Notice that this verse does not mention torment in the fires of Gehenna. Rather, it says, "fear him that can destroy in Gehenna." Referring to the soul separately, Jesus was emphazising that God can destroy all prospects of a person's life, this person would have no hope of resurrection. So, the references to Gehenna have the same meaning to the lake of fire in Revelation 21:8: Destruction, or second death.
The penalty for sin, rather than eternal torment, is death (Romans 6:23). After death, one is not subject to further punishment for his sins (Romans 6:7). Furthermore, eternal torment is not compatible with God's personality (Jeremiah 7:31; 1 John 4:8).
Romans 6:23 - “The wages sin pays is death.”
Romans 6:7 - “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”
Jeremiah 7:31: “They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” (If it had never come up into God's heart, he obviously does not do such a thing in a larger scale.)
1 John 5:8 - "Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love."
Thank you. Back to you, Con.
Also, Gehena is from the Hebrew "ge hennom" for The Valley of Hennon. The Valley of Hennon was a place south of Jerusalem where an idolatrous cult sacrificed children.
Off to Round Four!
On the basis that the valley of Hinnom was used as a site of idolatrous worship that included child sacrifice, some believe that Gehenna was used by Jesus as a symbol of eternal torment. Since Jehovah God expressed repugnance to such practice when He said, "a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart" (Jeremiah 7:31; 32:35) it seems unlikely that the Son of God would make that idolatrous practice the basis for the symbolic meaning of Gehenna.
In the Bible times, the most thorough means of destruction in use was fire. (Deuteronomy 13:16; Joshua 6:24) This is why Jesus often used the term “fire” to, in an illustrative way, denote the complete destruction of the wicked.
Anywho, I get what your saying. Fire was used as an efficient form of utterly destroying things. So when Jesus makes reference to sacrifice by fire or a fiery demise, it is to say that the person's soul would be destroyed, not tortured. But then why in Mark 13:42 and Luke 13:28 does it say there will be crying and "gnashing of teeth" in said furnace? Why are there descriptions of pain and turture if punishment for non belief and a sinful life is merely death? Why state that there will be suffering when there will be no feeling or experience at all?
Bible forfeited this round.
GIDHIR forfeited this round.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Jake33ss 1 year ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro has the most profoundly unbiblical position possible
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