The Instigator
SitaraPorDios
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
CatholicTraditionalist
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points

Eternal security is a true doctrine based on the Bible which is God's Word.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
CatholicTraditionalist
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/31/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 878 times Debate No: 37203
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (2)

 

SitaraPorDios

Pro

I am a Christian and my intent is to prove through the Bible and logic that eternal security is a true doctrine. I will first state how I believe that salvation is obtained for the background and then lay down Scripture and logic to prove my case in the second round if my opponant accepts. I ask that my opponant stick to the subject only unless otherwise needed. I will be using the King James version of the Bible for the record. My opponant is welcome to use whichever version he sees fit. Let's begin: I believe that salvation is obtained by repenting (changing your mind about and being sorry for) all of your sins, past, present, and future, accepting Jesus, and confessing Him to the best of your ability. According to Ephesians 2:8-10, good works are the rsult of not the cause of salvation. Not that I have gotten that out of the way, please accept, dear opponant.
CatholicTraditionalist

Con

The Pro claims that she is a Christian, but only Catholics are Christians. The proof is in the Pro's own profile under the 'Big Issues' section. No true Christian would be in favor of abortion, euthanasia and gay marriage, yet the Pro is in favor of all 3.

Anyway, as to Ephesians. Non-Catholics, like the Pro, frequently quote the following verse to attempt to prove that man is saved by faith alone.

Ephesians 2:8-9- "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

This argument also fails. As I will now show, this argument fails because this verse is specifically talking about the initial grace of receiving water baptism. Water baptism is not a work "of yourselves," but a sacrament instituted by God. No work you can do can substitute for the power of water baptism. This is said to "save" because it removes man"s original sin and puts him into the initial state of justification. The proof that Ephesians 2:8-9 is actually referring to water baptism is found when one compares the passage to Titus 3:5, and then to 1 Peter 3:20-21.

look at this:

Ephesians 2:8-9- "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Titus 3:5- "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Notice that the two passages are extremely similar. They are talking about the same thing. They both mention being saved, and not of works which we have done. Ephesians 2:8-9 describes this as being saved through "faith"; Titus 3:5 describes it as being saved through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. They are referring to the same thing.

Titus 3:5 is without any doubt referring to water baptism, as even John Calvin and Martin Luther admitted. Ephesians 2:8-9 is also talking about water baptism; it"s just that Ephesians 2:8-9 calls it "faith" because accepting baptism is submitting to faith; it"s how one joins the faith, as Jesus makes clear in Mark 16:15 and Matthew 28:19: "Preach the Gospel to every creature". Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost." Baptism is also described as "faith" in Galatians 3:

Galatians 3:26-27- "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

We see that receiving baptism is synonymous with receiving "faith" in Christ Jesus. To further confirm that Ephesians 2:8-9 is about being saved by baptism, let"s expand the comparison:

Ephesians 2:8-9- "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Titus 3:5- "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

1 Peter 3:20-21- "" when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saves you also""

This demonstrates that Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to the initial grace of baptism. Ephesians 2:8-9 is not talking about the ongoing justification of those who have already been baptized, but simply about how people were initially brought out of original sin and given the grace of justification. No work which anyone can do could replace or substitute for water baptism and the grace it grants: the first justification and removal of original sin. But once a person enters the Church through baptism (which is God"s work), his deeds and works indeed become part of the justification process, and a factor which will determine whether he maintains justification. This is made clear from the abundance of passages (e.g., James 2:24) that we already covered. Hence, the Protestant argument from Ephesians 2:8-9 is another one which doesn"t hold up to the context of Scripture.

Baptism is not a work of righteousness we have done; it"s the sacrament which Jesus instituted, which pours out His saving Blood and the cleansing of the Holy Ghost.

Now I will post a passage from the King James Version Bible that refutes the eternal security doctrine, and I will also use Ephesians since that is what my opponent first chose to use to make her false argument.

EPHESIANS 5:5-8 PROVES THAT IT"S POSSIBLE FOR TRUE BELIEVERS TO COMMIT MORTAL SINS AND LOSE THEIR SALVATION FOR SUCH SINS " THIS DEMOLISHES THE IDEA OF JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE AND ETERNAL SECURITY

Ephesians 5:5-8- "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light."

This is a fascinating passage.

St. Paul first mentions a number of mortal sins, and states that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. We saw this above with the passages in Galatians 5 and 1 Corinthians 6:9. As stated already, the common (and only possible) Protestant response to this is that no true believer could commit such sins which destroy the state of justification.

Well, the above passage clearly teaches that justified believers could commit those grave sins. St. Paul warns them in Ephesians 5:7 to "Be not ye therefore partakers with them"! Therefore, the believers could be partakers with the mortal sinners! And if there is any doubt that he is including authentic believers in that warning, he speaks of them as those who are now "light in the Lord" (true believers).

Therefore, those who are "light in the Lord" could be "partakers" with the mortal sinners and in the mortal sins which destroy justification. This without any doubt refutes justification by faith alone and "once saved always saved." Let no man deceive you with vain words such as "justification by faith alone"!
Debate Round No. 1
SitaraPorDios

Pro

My opponant claims that I am not a Christian. I will briefly adress this fallacy before I begin. A Christian is someone who follows Jesus, end of story. Labels matter not as long as we have Jesus. Now for the smackdown: 1. Like I said, Ephesians 2:8-10 proves that good works are the rsult of, not the cause of salvation. When my opponant claims that water baptism is mentioned, he or she is twisting the Bible to fit his beliefs, No where in Ephesians 2:8-10 is water baptism mentioned at all. In fact, it only mentions salvation by grace through faith. The proof: Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Let the record show that m,y opponant is inserting things into this section of Scripture that do not exist in the original languages. Now for Scriptures that prove my position: 1 Peter 1:5 says that we are kept by the power of God. That means that God will protect us from apostacy. Ephesians 4:30 says that we are are sealed unto the day of redemption. Philippians 1:6 says that He will complete a good work in us until the day of Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:6 says that God has raised us together to make us sit in the heavenly place. Ephesians 1:13 says that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Ephesians 5:30 says that we are members of the body of Christ. Colossians 2:10 says that we are complete in Him. 1 Corinthians 1:8 says that we are confirmed blameless until the end. Believers are preserve unto the heavenly kingdom according to 2 Timothy 4:18. Believers shall never perish according to John 10:28. According to John 6:39, Jesus never loses a believer. Jesus never casts out a believer according to John 6:37. We are saved by the life of Jesus, not our life according to Romans 5:10. Romans 5:18-19. 1 John 5:13: believers can know that they have eternal life. 1 Peter 1:4: believers have an inheritence that cannot be corrupted. 1 Peter 1:3: blievers are born of an incorruptable seed. 2 Thessalonians 2:16: believers have an everlasting consolation.
I ask that my opponant not go off topic this time and let the evidence speak for itself. God bless.
CatholicTraditionalist

Con

The Pro said, "My opponant claims that I am not a Christian. I will briefly adress this fallacy before I begin. A Christian is someone who follows Jesus, end of story."

I agree that a Christian is someone who follows the Lord Jesus Christ, but since you protestants reject the teachings of Christ revealed by the Church he established through sacred Scripture, sacred Magisterium and sacred Tradition, then that in and of itself proves that you and other protestants are not Christians but instead you are formal public manifest heretics who are outside of the body of Christ which is the "CHURCH".

Now back to the debate topic. I would like everyone following this debate to notice that I had responded in detail with regards to the verse from Ephesians that the Pro had originally posted and I had completely refuted her argument by explaining that verse in context with the rest of Scripture. Notice that her response was that I should not have gone outside of Ephesians to explain Ephesians. This proves that Protestants, like the Pro, do not understand particular verses and passages in context with all of Scripture, but instead they take those verses out of context so as to twist it to conform to their false heretical beliefs.

Also, notice that after I had responded to the passage from Ephesians that my opponent had posted, then my opponent completely ignored the passage from Ephesians that I had posted. The reason she completely ignored that passage, Ephesians 5:7, is because she knows it completely destroys the protestant heretical belief of eternal security. Another name for the heretical eternity security protestant doctrine is Once Saved Always Saved(OSAS).
I believe that my opponent's tactic will be to continue to ignore the passages I post from scripture that refutes her heretical belief in regards to Once Saved Always Saved.

I will now respond to the other verses that my opponent has posted. My opponent obviously believes that all those other verses proves that one cannot lose one's salvation, but she makes the mistake of not discerning those verses in the context of what the rest of Scripture says. You see, the rest of Scripture makes it clear that one remains justified, sanctified and in good standing with the Lord as long as they, the believers, abide in him. This is why she is not understanding the true meaning of those verses she posted. Again, she is not understanding those verses in context with what the rest of Scripture says, but instead she is ignoring the rest of Scripture so as to take those verses out of context which gives her the chance to twist those verses to mean something they do not. Therefore throughout this debate, I will provide passages from Scripture that my opponent seems to ignore, and which clearly refutes my opponents heretical belief in Once Saved Always Saved.

I will once again post the verse that my opponent chose not to respond to which is Ephesians 5:5-8

Ephesians 5:5-8- "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light."

EPHESIANS 5:5-8 Proves that its possible for true believers to commit mortal sins and lose their salvation for their sins. This completely destroys the concept of eternal security And again, this passage clearly teaches that justified believers could commit those grave sins. Here we see St. Paul warning them...... Ephesians 5:7 "Be not ye therefore partakers with them"! Therefore, the believers could be partakers with the mortal sinners! And if there is any doubt that he is including authentic believers in that warning, he speaks of them as those who are now "light in the Lord" (true believers).

ST. PAUL SAYS THAT HE COULD BECOME A CASTAWAY

1 Corinthians 9:24-27- "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

St. Paul says that he fears he could become a "castaway." The word "castaway" (in 1 Cor. 9:27) is translated from the Greek word adokimos. Adokimos is translated as "reprobate" in 2 Timothy 3:8 and in Romans 1:28. It describes lost souls, mortal sinners, apostates, and those who are outside the state of justification and/or outside the faith of Jesus.

In 2 Timothy 3:8, it is used to describe evil people who "resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith" (King James Version). These are obviously not people who are in a state of justification or on the road to Heaven.

In Romans 1:28, adokimos is used to describe people who have been given over to abominable sins " once again, people who are not on the road to Heaven. Adokimos is also found in other passages, including Titus 1:16, Hebrews 6:8 and elsewhere. In each case, it signifies people who are not on the road to Heaven, but outside the state of justification and/or the true faith.

By declaring that he could become a castaway or a reprobate (adokimos), there is no doubt that St. Paul is saying that he could lose his salvation and be damned along with the other reprobates. Was St. Paul a true believer who had been justified? Of course he was. The Bible thus teaches that true believers are not assured of salvation. This passage completely refutes the idea of eternal security or "once saved always saved."
Debate Round No. 2
SitaraPorDios

Pro

Let the record show that my opponant has again gone off topic and made ad hominim attacks about me just because I do not belong to his sect of "Christianity". Christianity is about having a relationshipt with Jesus, and that is it. Let the record show that my opponant has also refuse to address every single Scripture that I have provided. Let the record also show that there are more Scriptures that support my position than any that ALLEGEDLY support his, caps for emphasis only. This debate is about who did a better job of proving their case by staying on topic, avoiding logical fallacies, and providing proof. I have done a better job of this. My opponant has not. Vote for me.
CatholicTraditionalist

Con

The Pro said, "Let the record show that my opponant has again gone off topic and made ad hominim attacks about me just because I do not belong to his sect of "Christianity"."

There is nothing wrong in providing facts about my opponent which makes the case that she does not have the authority to interpret Scripture on her own because she is not a member of the one true Church Jesus established 2000 years ago.

The Pro said, "Christianity is about having a relationshipt with Jesus, and that is it"

So the Pro contradicted her past statement which said, "A Christian is someone who follows Jesus, end of story".
Besides, since your profile page said that you support abortion and euthanasia, then it proves that you reject the teachings of Christ, but instead you embrace satan. Therefore your "relationship" is with satan.

The Pro said, "Let the record show that my opponant has also refuse to address every single Scripture that I have provided"

Why should I address each and every verse you posted, when you have refused to address the one passage from Scripture that I posted? Nonetheless, I will address each and every verse you posted anyway so as to show that your interpretation of scripture is false because you are a spiritually blind person who has no authority to look to for the correct understanding of Scripture because you have no true Church.

The Pro said, "Let the record also show that there are more Scriptures that support my position than any that ALLEGEDLY support his, caps for emphasis only."

As I said before, all I have to do is provide one passage from Scripture that refutes the heretical eternal security doctrine to prove my case since all the verses the Pro posts in this debate will have to be understood in context with that one passage I posted.

The Pro claims this verse proves her position, 1 Peter 1:5 - "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Obviously the Pro believes that the word "faith" in that verse means to only "believe", yet what she fails to understand is that the term "faith" includes all the conditions that Christ requires of the Christian. Therefore a Christian must adhere to all the conditions that Christ has required of him throughout his lifetime and until his death so as to have been considered kept by the power of God. If one did not meet those conditions, then one is not kept by God's power and instead becomes a castaway and a heathen.

The Pro claims this verse proves her position, Ephesians 4:30 - "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

To all those following this debate, if you read the entire chapter of Ephesians 4, then you will see that a set of conditions are being required and its calling on Christians to meet those conditions. Therefore Ephesians 4:30 only applies if one meets those conditions until the end of their lifetime. Obviously if one fails to meet those conditions and does not repent of that sin, then one no longer remains sealed. Lets remember that Scripture(Book of Revelation) shows us that God has the ability to unseal what he has sealed.

The Pro claims this verse proves her position, Philippians 1:6 - "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"

Obviously a true Christian is confident through faith that the Lord would continue to work through him or her as long as that individual remains open to God's grace. But again, the Pro doesn't give you the context because its not just faith, but also "HOPE" in the Lord to do so. Which is why Ephesians 4 also says this, Ephesians 4:20 - "According to my earnest expectation and my HOPE, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death." Therefore he "HOPES" that the Lord continues to be shown through him by his preaching and by his good works. Therefore its possible for him to fall away from the Lord through sin, and that is why he cannot be "CERTAIN" that the Lord will continue to do good works through him, which is why he can only "HOPE" that the Lord continues to do good works through him.

Pro claims this verse proves her position, Ephesians 2:6 - "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

Again, in context this verse is speaking of those who became Christians, but no place in that verse does it say they will continue as Christians and no place in that verse does it claim that all who were raised up will continue to remain raised up. This is because its possible for a Christian to once again fall into sin and turn away from God.

Pro claims this verse proves her position, Ephesians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ"

Again, a Christian can be blessed for a while as long as they abide in the Lord, but if that Christian falls back into committing sins then that Christian will no longer remain sanctified.

Pro claims this verse proves her position, Ephesians 5:30 - "30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones."

Again she takes that verse out of context. If all of you have read what I posted earlier in the debate from Ephesians 5, then you will see that it clearly lists sins that leads one to hell, and it goes on to warn the believers not to be partakers with those who commit such sins. Which means that its possible for a believer to take part in committing those same mortal sins and therefore also be casts into hell. So therefore those who are members of his body are indeed members of his Church, but being a member of his Church does not guarantee salvation if one falls into mortal sin.

I could go on and on in explaining the rest of the verses that the Pro posted, but I think you all get the idea by now. I think you all can clearly see that she takes verses out of context so as to twist them to conform to her false heretical belief of "eternal security".

So far, I have posted two passages from Scripture that refutes the "eternal security" doctrine. She has not responded to either passage. There are numerous other passages from Scripture that refutes the "eternal security" doctrine. Here is another.....

Galatians 5:19-21- "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
Debate Round No. 3
SitaraPorDios

Pro

SitaraPorDios forfeited this round.
CatholicTraditionalist

Con

The Pro seems to have forgotten that she is still in a debate. Oh well, I will continue with refuting her argument.

The Pro posted this verse, Colossians 2:10 - "10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power"

How does this verse prove eternal security? Does this verse claim that the believer will always remain with Christ? No it does not. So again the Pro takes a verse out of context. One is "complete" in him as long as they abide in him. You see, the Pro failed to read verse, Colossians 2:6 - "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him". Therefore we must walk the right path to remain in him and he in us.

The Pro posted this verse, 1 Corinthians 1:8 - "Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ"

All those who abide in Christ until the end will certainly be blameless in the day of judgement. Why does the Pro keep taking all these verses out of context? Once again I will post from 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 whereby Saint Paul himself is claiming that he could become a castaway.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27- "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

The Pro posted this verse, 2 Timothy 4:18 - "And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen"

Again she takes this verse out of context. She obviously thinks this verse is referring to all Christians everywhere, but it doesn't. Instead, if you actually read all of 2 Timothy chapter 4, then you will see that its only Saint Paul speaking in regards to himself. Saint Paul lists those persons in that chapter who did evil towards him and he goes on to say that the Lord will preserve(meaning protect) him from those who attempt to thwart his ministry. Plus, Saint Paul believes that as long as he himself abides in Christ, then he will someday reach that heavenly kingdom. I know this because of what Saint Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 which must be taken in context with what Saint Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:18. The Pro fails to do this, which isn't surprising since we see that she has taken every verse she has posted out of context with the rest of Scripture.

The Pro posted this verse, John 10:28 - "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

I agree that nobody else can take away your salvation by plucking you out of the Lord's hand, but you yourself can lose your salvation by walking away from God due to sin and lack of faith. So therefore you yourself can pluck yourself out of God's hand.

The Pro posted these verses, John 6:36-37 - "But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out"

WoW, the entire chapter of John 6 makes the case for abiding and obeying instructions given by Christ, and Christ says in that chapter that persons have no life in them if they do not do as Christ says. In fact, that chapter of John chapter 6 supports the Catholic teaching about Christ's command that we take part in Holy Communion, which means receiving the Holy Eucharist. So the Pro again takes those verses out of context because any honest person knows that after one comes to Jesus, then one must follow him. If one who once came to Jesus later leaves Jesus, then obviously that individual will be cast out.
Debate Round No. 4
SitaraPorDios

Pro

SitaraPorDios forfeited this round.
CatholicTraditionalist

Con

JESUS SAYS THAT MEN MUST RADICALLY CUT OFF OCCASIONS OF SIN TO AVOID HELL, NOT JUST BELIEVE

In Matthew chapter 5, we find the parable about cutting off one"s hand or eye to avoid Hell.

Matthew 5:29-30- "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee" And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

This parable, which obviously refers to cutting off occasions of sins " things in life that will drag people into offenses against God " only has a meaning if sins and works are a part of determining whether one attains salvation. By cutting off sinful things and bad works, one will save his soul. Man"s sins and works are therefore a part of his justification. If man were justified by faith alone, this parable would not make any sense whatsoever.

NOT ALL WHO SAY "LORD, LORD" ENTER HEAVEN, BUT HE THAT DOES THE WILL OF GOD

Matthew 7:21-23- "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Here we see that he who "doeth" the will of God will enter Heaven, not all who consider Jesus to be the Lord. Then Jesus emphasizes the point by stating that you must do what He says to be His.

Matthew 7:24-27- "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock" And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."

How clear does it have to be? It"s a matter of whether you hear His words and do them. It"s not by faith alone.

YOU MUST PERSEVERE TO THE END TO BE SAVED

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

This totally contradicts the Protestant view of "once saved always saved." Also see Mark 13:13 for the same message.

MEN CAN FOLLOW THE WAY OF JESUS AND THEN TURN BACK AND BE OVERCOME

2 Peter 2:20-22- "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

This verse indicates that people who are justified can lose their justification through sins. It"s a clear proof of the Catholic teaching on justification. Some might try to argue that he"s simply speaking here of people who"ve heard of the Gospel, not those who really believed it. That doesn"t hold up. The verse says that these people have "known the way of righteousness" and "escaped the pollutions of the world." One doesn"t escape the pollutions of the world by simply hearing of the Gospel. His language describes someone who is walking the justified path and then turns away. That"s why 2 Peter 2:23 compares this man to a sow (a pig) who has been washed (i.e. justified) and then returns to the mud! That"s also why, earlier in the same chapter, a reference was made to the angels who sinned and lost their justification. St. Peter was really driving the point home.

THE ANGELS, ONCE JUSTIFIED, LOST THEIR JUSTIFICATION THROUGH SIN

2 Peter 2:4- "" God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment."

The angels were created in justification; but they sinned mortally, lost their justification, and were cast into Hell. These passages completely contradict the Protestant view of justification.

GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION TO ALL WHO "OBEY" HIM

Hebrews 5:9- "And being made perfect, he [Jesus] became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."

It"s not by faith alone.

BELIEVERS CAN FALL AWAY " PERIOD!

Hebrews 6:4-6- "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

This passage clearly shows that people who are believers, who "were partakers of the Holy Ghost," can fall away from the state of justification. The reference to it being "impossible" for such people to be renewed again to that state refers to the original grace of baptism, by which they were first cleansed from sin. They cannot be baptized again, but even grave sins can be forgiven in confession (John 20:23). This passage obliterates " totally demolishes " the once saved always saved Protestant theology.

BELIEVERS CAN BE DAMNED FOR THEIR SINS AFTER KNOWING THE TRUTH " THUS DISPROVING FAITH ALONE!

Hebrews 10:26-27- "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

In the same book and in the same vein as the above warning (Hebrews 6:4-6), this passage says that those who have the faith " St. Paul speaks of "we" " can lose salvation as a result of willful sins.

WITHOUT HOLINESS, NO MAN SHALL SEE THE LORD

Hebrews 12:14- "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."

This verse teaches that the justification necessary for salvation is a sanctification: a true holiness possessed by the person. It is not, as Protestants contend, the righteousness of Christ being imputed (i.e. applied) to a person, even though he remains interiorly unholy.

Explaining the Protestant view of the justified man, Martin Luther said that a justified man is like a mound of dung covered over with snow. The man remains sinful and iniquitous on the inside; but, as soon as he believes, the righteousness of Christ is applied to him as a covering and a cloak. This enables a dirty and iniquitous man to be saved, according to Protestant doctrine. He can be saved, even though he doesn"t possess holiness in himself, but remains a dung of sin on the inside.

We can see how this view contradicts the teaching of the Bible, which is that a justified man is actually and truly holy by God"s grace. He is sanctified and changed interiorly; he must possess this interior holiness to see the Lord.

It should also be pointed out that what God says happens. If He pronounces someone just, that"s because that person is truly just, not fictitiously just or cloaked over.

Mark 4:17- "" And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended."

Luke 8:13- "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

Jesus says clearly in Luke 8:13 that these people believe "for a while." The Protestants might say this refers to people who do not truly believe. One cannot say that, for Jesus Himself says that they believe for a time.

This entire parable refutes " and has no meaning in " the false Protestant view of justification. It not only teaches us that one can believe and then fall away, but that sins, temptations, worldly concerns, efforts to overcome the world and its snares and its cares (Mt. 13:22), all are part of one"s justification and salvation. It"s a striking confirmation of the Catholic teaching on justification, and a striking refutation of the Protestant position.

Luke 8:15- "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."

Those who bring forth fruit unto eternal life are those who hear the word and "keep it" or practice it.

JESUS SHALL CAST INTO HELL THOSE WHO DO INIQUITY

Matthew 13:41-42- "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

God will condemn people to Hell based on whether they do iniquity.

IF BELIEVERS DON"T CONTINUE IN GOODNESS, THEY WILL BE CUT OFF

In Romans chapter 11, we come to a verse which devastates Protestant theology.

Romans 11:20-22- "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

Romans chapter 11 clearly speaks of the Jews being cut off because of unbelief. And then in verse 22, St. Paul says that you believing Christians will also be cut off unless you continue in goodness. This destroys the ideas of justification by faith alone and once saved always saved.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by josjohis 3 years ago
josjohis
The eternal security side needed more elaborate argumentation to refute the opposing side. The opposing side did a decent job, but only at looking better than the eternal securitist. There are flaws with the opposing side's arguments against eternal security. Eternal security is a doctrine that is very well supported by the Scriptures. I recommend reading "The Believer's Eternal Security: Myth or Biblical Truth?" It is a very well written exposion and defense of the topic. I would like to see more debates on eternal security.
Posted by lolzors93 3 years ago
lolzors93
Hey Dana ;)

Ephesians 1:13-15 and 1 Corinthians 12:3. I rest my case.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by funwiththoughts 3 years ago
funwiththoughts
SitaraPorDiosCatholicTraditionalistTied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF.
Vote Placed by Sojourner 3 years ago
Sojourner
SitaraPorDiosCatholicTraditionalistTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro dropped the debate.