The Instigator
ThePhilosIsk
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Mharman
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points

Ethical dilemma about triage and rescue

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
Mharman
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/30/2017 Category: Society
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 728 times Debate No: 99427
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (1)

 

ThePhilosIsk

Pro

A rescue team receives a 911 call from a beach warden about 8 swimsuit-clad kids, aged 10-12, are trapped in mud at seaside mudflats while straying off to go for a swim in the sea and play in the treacherous mudflats. The rescue team authorizes the use of the helicopter to rescue the kids from the mudflats, however there is catch to rescuing them:

- The tide comes in 30 minutes, to reach the trapped kids require 15 minutes to reach and 15 minutes to return to base.
- The helicopter can only carry three casualties which means five children will be left, trapped in mud sludge, suffering from hypothermia and drowned when the tide comes.

1. Milton, age 12: Buried up to his shoulders, his muddy hands are free, now struggling to free himself.
2. Andrea, age 12: Waist-deep in mud, trying to set her legs free while being unbalanced and suffering from hypothermia.
3. Lloyd, age 11: He is covered in mud, trying to walk back to shore but is futile because his feet keeps getting trapped in sinking mud.
4. Wanda, age 10: In extreme hypothermia, wet and shivering trying to struggle from the mud that she is trapped.
5. Nicholas, age 11: Is in dire need of medical attention due to hypothermia and covered in mud from being buried and trapped to his neck.
6. Carmen, age 12: She is stuck up to her waist, she is the closest to the water and the rising tide that is coming towards her first.
7. Gerard, age 10: Trapped with his sister, trying to help each other get out of the deep quicksand-like mud, often sinking back each time.
8. Davina, age 10: Like her brother, she is suffering from hypothermia and struggling to escape from the quicksand-like dark sludge with her brother.

My answer is to take Milton, Lloyd and Carmen because they have the highest chance to be rushed in the hospital to be saved from hypothermia and drowning.

What are your other arguments for the others who need to be rescued and chosen?
Mharman

Con

My solution: Rescue them all; it's possible.

"- The tide comes in 30 minutes, to reach the trapped kids require 15 minutes to reach and 15 minutes to return to base."
False. Although it would take 15 to reach them, they do not need the 15 minutes to get back to base, they just need 10 seconds to get out of the way of the tide, they can start the return to the base after the tide comes through. This would allow for 14 minutes of extra time, more time to rescue more people.

"- The helicopter can only carry three casualties which means five children will be left, trapped in mud sludge, suffering from hypothermia and drowned when the tide comes."
Also false. Although it says "maximum of three spots remaining", you could fit all eight in. For example, take my mom's van. it has seven seats available, but we have stuffed up to way more people than that, with some sitting on the floor, holding onto something, and other siting on other peoples' laps, we can hold more than double the amount of people. The same thing is the case with the helicopter. It is possible to stuff them all in. Sure, it would be uncomfortable for them (although maybe the ones with hypothermia would benefit by bodily warmth from the ones that don't have it), but you could do it.

"The rescue team authorizes the use of the helicopter to rescue the kids from the mudflats."
This rescue team could also dispatch more than one helicopter, to fit more people if you don't like the idea of stuffing them in, plus you would have more people to help with the rescue, making an even quicker rescue.

Also, assuming there is multiple crew members per helicopter, you could leave them behind (so that there is one crew member per helicopter) instead. They're not stuck, so they could swim to shore without touching the seafloor. This frees up more space. This will also work because knowing how to swim is a requirement to get on this rescue team.

That's my solution. My outside of the box thinking has given an all eight children a chance to survive, instead of five children with a guaranteed death, and three children with a chance to survive.
Debate Round No. 1
ThePhilosIsk

Pro

Read more a bit for my argument.

Nicholas, age 11 is in dire need of medical attention because of hypothermia and being covered in mud. That is because he is wearing a light blue speedo. Wanda is wearing a purple one-piece swimsuit while trapped in a pool of water. Carmen is the closest to the sea and the tide is rising to drown her. Gerard, age 10, wearing a green and blue swim trunks and Davina, age 10, wearing a blue and pink striped tankini and white boy shorts are trapped trying rescue each other from the quicksand-like mud.

Sorry if its a bit confusing but can you see the conditions that the kids that need rescue are suffering from. Up there, that's just simply the specifics.
To put it simply:
* Milton is buried up in mud to his shoulders in mud,
* Andrea is suffering from hypothermia,
* Lloyd is trying to get back to shore,
* Nicholas is in dire need of medical attention,
* Wanda is struggling not to drown and suffering from hypothermia trapped in a pool with mud,
* Carmen is going to be drowned when the tide comes,
* Gerard and Davina are struggling to get out of a quicksand-like sludge while suffering from hypothermia.

Not only that, but the helicopter would get into more problems such as this:
* The helicopter cannot land on the mudflats.
* The rescuers must try to winch the mud covered and hypothermic kids into the helicopter without the kids slipping from the winch and into their deaths.
* The rescuers must find a way to free the kids from the mud, a process that would require 10 minutes to dig them out of the mud using the only tools they have.
* The rescuers must also try to find which one is at risk of either hypothermia or drowning.
* The rescuers must find a way to keep the hypothermic kids warm and that Nicholas (who is suffering from extreme hypothermia and needs dire medical attention) must be sent to the hospital immediately before he dies from hypothermia.

Even if the rescue team rescues the kids, there will be more problems expected from it
* When the tide comes, there will still be a few more kids trapped in mud and hypothermic. And not enough time to get them into the helicopter for safety and medical attention. It would mean death for Carmen, age 12 who is wearing a red and white striped bandeau.
* Shivering kids from hypothermia would be a serious problem, the shivering kids would easily slip from the winch and fall to their deaths on the mudflats. This will be a serious risk for Nicholas, age 12 wearing light blue speedo and Wanda, age 11 who is wearing a purple one-piece swimsuit, wet and shivering from being trapped in a pool of water and buried in mud struggling to get out.
* Muddy kids from being buried in mud would be another problem for the rescuers, the muddy kids would also slip and fall to their deaths. A death sentence for Milton, age 12 who is wearing black withe ultramarine trims and blue and yellow highlights and covered with mud from head to toe after being buried in sinking and deep mud.
* Some areas of the mudflats are more deeper, sludgy and treacherous. This will be the most difficult challenge since Gerard and Davina are trapped in quicksand-like sludge and needs to be pulled and dug out for about 20 minutes.

Even if all the kids are crammed to the helicopter and the multiple crew members are left behind. Travelling back to the coast will be more of an ordeal of survival.
* Overcrowding will be a challenge, since the kids are covered in mud and suffering from hypothermia. This problem will cause some of the kids to push each other, slip due to hypothermia and covered in mud and fall to their deaths.
* Dire medical attention, what if one of the kids dies of hypothermia . Nicholas and Wanda will be at risk since he will need to be sent to the hospital for recovery before they die of this condition.
* The casualties will need to keep calm or otherwise their medical condition of hypothermia will get worse and the helicopter will be in jeopardy.
* The helicopter will need to battle the coastal winds that are slowing down the flight for rescue.
* What if the rescue helicopter starts to breakdown or run out of fuel, this will need a emergency landing on another place of the coast nearer to them.
* If the helicopter crew was called by the rescue team to rescue two more from the mudflats, who is Lauren, age 12 wearing a purple bikini with floral patterns and Joshua, age 12 wearing purple swim shorts trapped in mud and suffering from hypothermia.

When the rescue helicopter arrives at land, most of the kids will not survive their ordeals and troubles.
* The one who need medical attention needs to be rushed to the hospital, but no ambulance is sent, so the rescue team is forced to chose who needs it and call the ambulance.
* Another problem is to wash the kids from the mud that cover them. The mud keeps them from being sent to the hospital and makes them hypothermic. The rescue team base does not have a warm water supply and forced to use cold water to wash them using hoses.
* They need to keep the kids warm. They have sufficient blankets, but the mud need to be washed off before they can use the blankets.
* The kid casualties will need to take off their swimsuits and personal belongings to be washed with the hose to get rid of the mud, which is outside the rescue team base. (If possible since they were trapped in the mudflats for an hour)
* That includes the two extra kids saved on-board which is Lauren and Joshua.

As you see, you cannot save everyone with kindness sometimes. Chance and strength is the only morality in our world that is not biased and prejudiced. Chose 3 kids to be saved and 5 will be left to their doom. That will be the most hardest decisions that rescue teams will take. Chance and Strength will judge how the kid casualties will be worthy of rescue.

Do you have any counter-arguments?
Mharman

Con

"* The helicopter cannot land on the mudflats.
* The rescuers must try to winch the mud covered and hypothermic kids into the helicopter without the kids slipping from the winch and into their deaths.
* The rescuers must find a way to free the kids from the mud, a process that would require 10 minutes to dig them out of the mud using the only tools they have.
* The rescuers must also try to find which one is at risk of either hypothermia or drowning.
* The rescuers must find a way to keep the hypothermic kids warm and that Nicholas (who is suffering from extreme hypothermia and needs dire medical attention) must be sent to the hospital immediately before he dies from hypothermia."

They don't need to land. They could stay flying in the air and drop a ladder and a winch. If it takes ten minutes to save them, then there is time to get them all with five minutes to spare. And as for the ones with hypothermia, this is a rescue helicopter for Pete's sake! They have all sorts of stuff for that! Blankets, Heaters, you name it.


"Even if the rescue team rescues the kids, there will be more problems expected from it
* When the tide comes, there will still be a few more kids trapped in mud and hypothermic. And not enough time to get them into the helicopter for safety and medical attention. It would mean death for Carmen, age 12 who is wearing a red and white striped bandeau.
* Shivering kids from hypothermia would be a serious problem, the shivering kids would easily slip from the winch and fall to their deaths on the mudflats. This will be a serious risk for Nicholas, age 12 wearing light blue speedo and Wanda, age 11 who is wearing a purple one-piece swimsuit, wet and shivering from being trapped in a pool of water and buried in mud struggling to get out.
* Muddy kids from being buried in mud would be another problem for the rescuers, the muddy kids would also slip and fall to their deaths. A death sentence for Milton, age 12 who is wearing black withe ultramarine trims and blue and yellow highlights and covered with mud from head to toe after being buried in sinking and deep mud.
* Some areas of the mudflats are more deeper, sludgy and treacherous. This will be the most difficult challenge since Gerard and Davina are trapped in quicksand-like sludge and needs to be pulled and dug out for about 20 minutes"

I already covered this, they do have time and treatment, and if it were twenty minutes on a certain kid, they could cut that time even more by bringing more helicopters, which means more crew members. As for slippery kids, they won't fall if you close the door to the helicopter. And if their climbing up, they do have multiple ladders and winches, for crew members to come and help, and I'm sure they're strong enough that they don't need help from the crew members easily.


"Even if all the kids are crammed to the helicopter and the multiple crew members are left behind. Travelling back to the coast will be more of an ordeal of survival.
* Overcrowding will be a challenge, since the kids are covered in mud and suffering from hypothermia. This problem will cause some of the kids to push each other, slip due to hypothermia and covered in mud and fall to their deaths.
* Dire medical attention, what if one of the kids dies of hypothermia . Nicholas and Wanda will be at risk since he will need to be sent to the hospital for recovery before they die of this condition.
* The casualties will need to keep calm or otherwise their medical condition of hypothermia will get worse and the helicopter will be in jeopardy.
* The helicopter will need to battle the coastal winds that are slowing down the flight for rescue.
* What if the rescue helicopter starts to breakdown or run out of fuel, this will need a emergency landing on another place of the coast nearer to them.
* If the helicopter crew was called by the rescue team to rescue two more from the mudflats, who is Lauren, age 12 wearing a purple bikini with floral patterns and Joshua, age 12 wearing purple swim shorts trapped in mud and suffering from hypothermia."

Overcrowding will be uncomfortable, but bodily warmth will help the ones with hypothermia on top of the aforementioned blankets and heaters. Winds are not a problem for a helicopter, my mom's van has driven with the wind against it, and it has been fine; it would also take really extremely powerful winds to have a relevant effect. They are constantly filling these up, so no fuel shortage; you are only gasping at straws when you say that the engine could blow up, but that is very, very small probability in every rescue.


"When the rescue helicopter arrives at land, most of the kids will not survive their ordeals and troubles.
* The one who need medical attention needs to be rushed to the hospital, but no ambulance is sent, so the rescue team is forced to chose who needs it and call the ambulance.
* Another problem is to wash the kids from the mud that cover them. The mud keeps them from being sent to the hospital and makes them hypothermic. The rescue team base does not have a warm water supply and forced to use cold water to wash them using hoses.
* They need to keep the kids warm. They have sufficient blankets, but the mud need to be washed off before they can use the blankets.
* The kid casualties will need to take off their swimsuits and personal belongings to be washed with the hose to get rid of the mud, which is outside the rescue team base. (If possible since they were trapped in the mudflats for an hour)
* That includes the two extra kids saved on-board which is Lauren and Joshua."

They are a rescue team, they will have some temporary treatment there. This is a rescue base, there is no way they don't have warm water, they'd fail inspection otherwise. They are a rescue team after all. With all these limitations and rules you keep adding in the middle of debate, it seems like you think they are a group of ragtags, or have been trying to make them out to be ragtags, which they are not.

My outside of the box thinking still stands.
Debate Round No. 2
ThePhilosIsk

Pro

Alright, you're going to win. Here will be final questions for thie debate on this ethical issue before we call off the day.
If you were one of the kids, what would you do to help others, try to get out of the mudflats and find help with the other casualties and other thougts of the kids.
  1. Milton, age 12, wearing black swim trunks with ultramarine trims and blue and yellow highlights. Buried up in mud to his shoulders in mud.
  2. Andrea, age 12, wearing a dark red bikini. Suffering from hypothermia and trapped waist deep in mud trying to free legs.
  3. Lloyd, age 11, wearing yellow and black swim shorts with emerald highlights and trimes. Covered in mud and trying to get back to shore but failing because the mud keeps sinking.
  4. Wanda, age 10, wearing purple one-piece swimsuit. Wet and shivering from being trapped in a pool of water by mud jsut to remove mud from her body and bathing suit.
  5. Nicholas, age 12, wearing a lgiht blue speedo. Dire need of medical attention because of hypothermia and covered in mud from being buried and trapped to his neck.
  6. Carmen, age 12, wearing a red and white bandeau bikini. Closest to the sea and the rising tide, trapped to her waist.
  7. Gerard, age 10, wearing green and blue swim trunks. Trapped in deep and treacherous quicksand-like mud sludge with his sister, often sinking each time they get up above their necks.
  8. Davina, age 10, wearing blue and pink striped tankini and maroon boy shorts. Similiar situation with her brother in deep quicksand.

And if you were the rescuers, what would you do and you other thoughts.

If extra casualties come which is

  • Joshua, age 12, wearing purple swim shorts. Trapped in mud and suffering from hypothermia from covered in mud and trying to walk to the sea.
  • Charlotte (name changed from Lauren), age 12, wearing floral pattern purple bikini. Same situation as above with Joshua.

What would the rescue team would do with the extra casualties if they found them while bringing the 8 kid causalties back to the rescue base.

And miscellaneous questions.

  1. If you were the parents of one of the kids, what would you react if they:
  • Realized your kid is trapped in the mudflats.
  • Your kid is rescued.
  • You find your kid alive and well from the rescued from the mudflats
  1. Would it make a good news story on TV, newspapers and other media.
  2. Would it make a good documentary or TV special about this incident.
  3. What would your parents react about this news.

Ask any other questions, I'm done for this debate.

Mharman

Con

"Alright, you're going to win. Here will be final questions for thie debate on this ethical issue before we call off the day."
I'm assuming this means he forfeits.

"If you were one of the kids, what would you do to help others, try to get out of the mudflats and find help with the other casualties and other thougts of the kids."
That depends which kid I was. If I was one of the kids with hypothermia, I probably wouldn't do anything except maybe speak some encouragement to the rescue crew. If didn't have hypothermia, I would help the rest up.

"And if you were the rescuers, what would you do and you other thoughts."
I would do everything I listed in the previous rounds.

"What would the rescue team would do with the extra casualties if they found them while bringing the 8 kid causalties back to the rescue base."
Save them as well, if there not already in the middle of the trip back to base. If they are, send another helicopter.

"Realized your kid is trapped in the mudflats."
I'd start seeing of there is any way I could help him/her out without getting stuck myself.

"Your kid is rescued."
I'd be overjoyed, but no time for celebration, as I would see if there is any way I can help the rest of the kids without getting stuck myself.

"You find your kid alive and well from the rescued from the mudflats."
I'd be overjoyed.

"Would it make a good news story on TV, newspapers and other media."
Yes.

"Would it make a good documentary or TV special about this incident."
Probably not.

"What would your parents react about this news."
They'd be shocked, overjoyed that everyone made it.


I have one thing left to say.



Thank you for a good debate. Please vote con.
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Mharman 1 year ago
Mharman
Hey, uh, you're a pretty good debater. You should try debating more. One debate shouldn't be enough to make you quit. I lost my first debate. I feel that you could be very good.
Posted by Mharman 1 year ago
Mharman
Ya know PhilosIsk, you are a decent debater. Here's some advice. You should get a profile picture. All of the greats have one. If you don't, you kinda look like a noob.
Posted by ThePhilosIsk 1 year ago
ThePhilosIsk
I'm done with this debate already, you won,
Posted by Mharman 1 year ago
Mharman
Is this a forfeit?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by warren42 1 year ago
warren42
ThePhilosIskMharmanTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit