The Instigator
yuvalne
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
OsamaTheCityzen
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points

Europe countries should join the BDS and boycott Israel

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
OsamaTheCityzen
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/22/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 391 times Debate No: 88639
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

yuvalne

Con

Recently there's a tendency over the world (and especially in Europe) to charge Israel for various war crimes, including brutal conquest and mass murder.
As an Israeli civilian and as a person, I find these charges false, and I believe they originate from a lack of understanding of the situation and information from biased sources.
If I will be given a chance, I will show you the occurrence of events as I see it here from
Israel, and, hopefully, you will join me and the rest of Israel against the BDS and the rest of anti-Israeli squads.
OsamaTheCityzen

Pro

I accept this debate, and I will say this before we start anything: joining the BDS movement does not mean you completely reject Israel or completely support the Palestinians, it just means that you do not want to spend on Israeli goods and give money to Israel given their history of war crimes. I believe that the Israeli government has committed war crimes using aid given to them by foreign countries, as well as occupied territories that are illegal for them to occupy. I also believe that each country should spend on itself first before helping other countries, and seeing what Europe is now going through, there are many things that they should be spending on instead of supporting Israel financially. I look forward to your arguments. Good luck, Con!
Debate Round No. 1
yuvalne

Con

First of all, thank you for receiving my debate! Now, let the debate begin.
There are several points I'd like to deal with:
First of all, the morality of the IDF. The leadership of the IDF does as much as it can to prevent death and damage. One of the IDF's regular procedures is to phone every single person who lives in an assault area and warning him about an approaching attack. During the summer of 2014 a flyover took place above Gaza, and during it the planes scattered leaflets all over the north of Gaza, warning the citizens in Arabic about several attacks that are about to take place in the city. Sadly, the Hamas didn't allowed the people to leave. You might say Israel could have done more, but I can ensure you even the US don't warn civilians near military targets of ISIS before attacking.
I guess you might have watched some clips or pictures that show an Israeli soldier hits a Palestinian child. First, I need you to understand that most of those records are fakes. Countries like Kuwait and Iran are funding such lies. About the rest, almost all of it is taken out of context. The photographers do not take picture of how this child threw rocks towards the soldiers, don't they? And if, in a rare incident, a soldier truly hit someone without reason, he goes to jail immediately.
Now, to the next subject: Did you knew? Nearly all of the reporters from Europe in Israel are pro-palestines. Many news networks in Europe (like the BBC) almost never publish anything that supports a pro-Israeli position. Most of the people who support the BDS never heard a single fact about Israel, and everything they know is what they have been told, that Israel conquers territories and murders anyone who opposes. In many cases, after hearing the Israeli position, people reconsidered their views.
Let me ask you a question: Do you really want to confiscate an ENTIRE country based on what is quite clearly an anti-Israeli propaganda? Based on your introduction I can tell that you have right-wing political views, but I think you will agree with me that in the modern times in which we live, no one can live without buying products from other places over the world. The climate in each country do not allow to grow all types of foods, and there's not enough area to build factories that will make ALL goods that people need. So, if you need to buy stuff from other countries, why not from Israel? Our apples and strawberries are world-class, as far as I understand it. Soda-Stream is wanted all over the world. Why ban them? Even if all of it was true, if Israel did committed war crimes, how does it help? It won't solve a thing. The Israeli economy will not collapse. If you have a problem, fix it from the source! Boycotting Israel will not bring a world peace, I can insure it to you.
Yesterday there was a terrorism attack in Brussels. The pain people shared worldwide was enormous. Now imagine that every day you take the newspaper, open it in the first page and read that another one was killed in a terror attack. Imagine that during the recent wave of terror, there were more people killed that were killed in both terror attacks by ISIS in Europe. Imagine the fear that surrounds everyone. This is how it feels to live in Israel for the last 6 months. Last time we had an intifada, we stopped it with the international help. Now we need it again.
OsamaTheCityzen

Pro

I clearly see your point of view, and I agree with some of it, but I disagree with major parts of it. I would also like to point out that I am not right-wing at all. I am a moderate who sides with the liberals on some issues and the conservatives on others.
First of all, when a country is at war, there is always aggression from both sides, in this case, the Israelis and Palestinians. Both sides in this conflict have done wrong things. I am not justifying Hamas nor the IDF, I am just stating this as a fact of war.
As for Israel warning the people in Gaza, there is a lot of discussion on whether or not they give sufficient warning. In this article in the New York Times, it is stated that "the caller said that everyone in the house must leave within five minutes, because it was going to be bombed." This article was talking from an objective standpoint about the people who didn't have time to leave, etc, but I would argue that 5 minutes is never enough to leave the house. Additionally, it doesn't make it ok to bomb civilian houses *no matter what* even if you give them a warning. They lose the place they live in, they lose all of their belongings, and they will be living on the streets until they can figure something out. You might argue that Israel is targeting Hamas, but in that case, why would you give them warning? It is illogical to give your enemy a warning of when and where you will hit because they will be able to stay one step ahead of you. There is no denying that Palestinian civilian houses were bombed and that Palestinian civilians were killed. But whose fault is it?
Israel gave an insufficient warning that it will bomb Gaza, and as a result, civilians died. Hamas may have prevented them from leaving (which is obviously wrong) but to where? Gaza is surrounded by walls and the sea is patrolled by the Israeli navy. Even if they get away from their houses, which they lost forever, they will go near other houses that will be bombed. Even if they manage to get away from all of these houses, they will still be stuck in Gaza because Israel would not allow them into their land. The US doesn't warn civilians near ISIS that they will be bombed, and that is wrong, but that doesn't mean what Israel does is right. It is never ok to kill civilians, period.
You said that most of the records of an Israeli hitting a Palestinian child first are fake and taken out of context, and that if any soldier does that they are punished. Fair enough, let's assume this is true. Is a child throwing rocks at soldiers punishable by being shot? Shouldn't a child, (emphasis on *child*) be punished by something less severe than getting shot? What happened to Juvenile detention centers? These punishments, especially to children (as you yourself stated) are illegal according to international law, because a child needs to be punished as a child and not as an adult. Sure, punish the children, imprison them, give them fines, etc. but do not kill them. The adults are a different matter.
As for the media bias, I would totally argue otherwise. Israel is portrayed extremely well in the media here. Of course they report if a Palestinian child was killed or if Gaza was bombed, but they also report when Israelis are killed or when Hamas kills civilians. Objective reporting is reporting both sides, not one side only, and I think that is what the media does.
Also, there is no question that the expanding settlements in the West Bank and Gaza are illegal under international law. Many leaders have called on Israel to stay within the 1967 borders, as did the United Nations in resolution 242, and as was part of the Camp David treaty, the Oslo Accords, and the Geneva Initiative. That is considered an aggression on the Israeli part (although I won't deny that the Palestinians didn't comply with some aspects of those treaties either, but no business is done with them anyways.)
Finally, the BDS movement is more symbolic than to hurt Israel financially. Of course the United States will still continue to give Israel 8-10 million dollars of aid *per day* (2) and of course Israel will still be supported by many people. The BDS movement will never stop Israel and will barely hurt it financially, but it will make a statement. I agree with you that trade is good, and Israeli dates are tasty, probably strawberries too. But like I said, the BDS movement will barely do anything to Israel's economy. It is mainly there to make a point. You might argue that nothing like it is being done to the Palestinians, but I will say that no business is done with Palestine anyways, so there is no point for that.

1. http://www.nytimes.com...
2. http://www.politifact.com...
Debate Round No. 2
yuvalne

Con

Before I raise new arguments, I'd like to respond to yours.
Most of people have no idea how difficult it is to defeat the Hamas. Unlike any other possible enemies, the Hamas is unique in that they use hospitals, schools and houses of citizens as arsenals and hiding spots. The IDF has to make serious ethical decisions on an ongoing basis. If you knew that this specific house has missiles and other weapons hidden in it, what would you do? Informing the located people too early means the Hamas can take those weapons away, which is a great danger to many other people. Countless times an attack was canceled because the people who live in didn't leave, but not any attack can be stopped. Sometimes, it is not possible. The pilot can not see the people standing on the roof, how can he know he can not attack? I'm not blaming those citizens, I'm blaming the Hamas for settling there in the first place.
Now, you've spoken about cases in which a soldier shot a Palestinian child. I've checked many places on the internet, and, reducing counterfeits, I found only two cases which are close to the case that you displayed: In the first case, which a soldier shot a man who was lying on the floor ,the soldier was severely punished. In the second case, which a soldier shot two teens who tried to stab him, the soldier has fulfilled all the procedures - He warned the boys, few times, shot in the air, and finally tried to shoot them in their legs (so they will not be able to stab him) - when they ran towards him and the shots hit them in the chest.
On the next subject, I know many movements and organizations over the world call Israel to stay in 1967 borders, but you need to understand that we have valid reasons why we don't leave the West Bank. The first reason - we have people who live there! There are nearly 400 thousand jew civilians in Judea and Samaria. It's nearly the entire population of Wyoming! (a state in the USA). Imagine that the US government is asked to evacuate the entire state for people who many of them deny the country. And that's not all. Last time that Israel was required to evacuate a Palestinian zone was in 2005, and the evacuated zones were Gush Katif. Today, this area is called Gaza Strip, and it's under control of the Hamas. Following this evacuation Israel is now under continuous threat. Why should we allow this to happen again?
The BDS movement claims that Israel is responsible for all these troubles, but I contend that people who do things like this - https://www.youtube.com... - are responsible. (From the little Arabic I know, the subtitles match what is being said...)
So, instead of boycotting Israel and persuade it to something which will only bring more troubles, help us defeat them.
OsamaTheCityzen

Pro

You asked me what I would do. Personally, I would think long and hard before bombing any civilians, even to defeat terrorists. There might be better ways such as infiltrating them from within, and I understand that it might be hard, but civilian lives aren't a joke, especially for a country that claims equality for everyone. It does not seem fair to complain about civilian deaths but to go and kill more civilians, no matter how hard it is to get to the real target. In my opinion, both sides are at fault for killing civilians. As for the children, the "only 2 cases" seems too good to be true, considering that 2104 Palestinians were killed in one month in 2014, 495 of whom were children and 253 were women. At the same time, 72 Israelis were killed, seven of whom were civilians. In that same time, Hamas launched 4591 rockets into Israel, 735 were intercepted by Israel's "Iron dome" system, while Israel hit 5226 targets in Gaza (1). Clearly both sides are at serious fault here. However, way more Palestinian civilians were killed than Israelis. Yes, Hamas killed civilians, but Israel killed more. Hamas is already being boycotted by the entire world, labeled a terrorist organization by many countries, and nobody does business with them. Israel killed more civilians, a violation to international law, and the entire world does business with them. The BDS movement is about putting pressure on Israel to raise awareness to these civilians being killed, even though it won't have a serious effect on Israel's military funding or its economy.

Also, you failed to give *any* citation whatsoever as to only two incidents where a Palestinian child was killed.

1. http://www.bbc.com...
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk...
Debate Round No. 3
yuvalne

Con

I see you find it hard to believe my word, and I understand why. So, instead of trusting me to tell you what is true and what isn't, why won't you check yourself?
On every external article about Israel there are few main sources. At least one of them is Palestinian, and at least one of them is Israeli. Is that so?
I've checked all of the articles you've brought here. The only article who has an Israeli source is the one of the BBC. And even on this article there is a problem, because the Israeli source is B'Tselem, which is an 'Israeli' organization that publish false information about Israel, and worsens our condition in the world. (an article about B'Tselem: http://www.ynetnews.com...) Don't rely only on me. Go and check it yourself, which sources have you brought that have Israeli opinion?
Now, because my word seems unreliable, here is a more reliable source which says exactly what I'm saying: https://www.youtube.com...
People don't trust Jews and Israelis, which makes our job, against the Palestinian incitement, very hard. You might say you treat us equally, but I say you only think you do. https://www.youtube.com...
Israel is in a continuous fight, not only against the Hamas, but only against the anti-Israeli lies which spread at breakneck speed. Just give us a chance to show you what do we think, leave your preliminary views, just for a moment, and listen to us.
http://israeliside.com...
I'll finish with the inspiring word of Yair Lapid. He is Israeli, but I think that you can believe me he's not lying.
http://www.ynetnews.com...
All we want is peace. سلام. שלום.
OsamaTheCityzen

Pro

It may be of importance to note that I have studied the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in so much detail, and I believe that I am not biased. I've heard the pro-IDF arguments and even the very few pro-Hamas arguments. I have studied the history in that region in so much detail and talked to both Palestinians and Israelis with the widest ranges of ideologies, I am yet to visit Israel and Palestine but I have many friends who are from there or have visited there in the past 6 months. Like I said, in any war there are crimes committed from both sides. You have deviated from the topic of this debate and you tried justifying the IDF as an angel who has not committed any wrong, but I don't see that to be the case. Israel has killed many civilians, and yes, they did kill terrorists, and yes, terrorists should be fought, but not by killing 495 children and 253 women who had absolutely nothing to do with the problem. You keep bringing sources and saying they are biased, but how do we know that the sources that you brought us aren't biased themselves? The sad reality is that in this day and age, there is no such thing as an unbiased report. Even if it states the facts, it is usually worded in a biased way. It is right to see all the points of view, and I respect the articles that you brought because they tell us one point of view, but you cannot alienate all the other news sources. The reality is, both the IDF and Hamas has done wrong, and Hamas is already being boycotted and labeled as a terrorist organization by many countries. Nobody does any business with them. Hamas is already being punished, and the BDS movement is basically saying "isn't it time to punish the other side too?" It is not justifying terrorism, it is not supporting it, and it is not saying that Israel is right or Palestine is right. It simply exists to put political and economical pressure on Israel and to raise awareness to the civilians killed by Israel. I have already pointed out that Israel gets 8-10 million dollars in aid per day from the United States, and that will not stop, and probably will go up looking at the presidential candidates who are leading in the polls. Israel is not going to be poor, and the terrorists will not win. The BDS will just raise awareness in the hope that Israel may lessen the innocent lives lost and find better strategies to defeat terrorism, instead of having over 800 civilian lives lost in the process.
Thank you for this debate, and I look forward to the voting.
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by OsamaTheCityzen 1 year ago
OsamaTheCityzen
Thank you. I apologize if I have offended you in any way, and best of luck.
Posted by yuvalne 1 year ago
yuvalne
I don't think one vote is representing enough, but well done.
Posted by yuvalne 1 year ago
yuvalne
Okay first of all, you can not ask Israel to invest more in intelligent, because it's already done. A major part of Israel's budget goes to the army's intelligent, and these intelligent forces are among the best in the world.
Secondly, Hamas won democratically just as Bashar Al-Asad won. The democratic elections aren't democratic, and aren't really elections.
https://www.washingtonpost.com... - Notice no. 2
https://www.washingtonpost.com... - Washington post, a reliable source, isn't it?
Hamas is absolutely not a service group, at least not on these days. They invest so much money in tries to terrorise Israel, they could have rebuild the city twice instead.
http://www.dailykos.com...
http://matzav.com...
https://www.idfblog.com...
http://images.scribblelive.com...
http://www.maariv.co.il...
So please, don't tell me that Hamas gives social services.
Posted by OsamaTheCityzen 1 year ago
OsamaTheCityzen
With all due respect, we are all entitled to our own opinions. Life is precious, and civilian life is to be protected by all means. Who is to decide that an American life is more valuable than a Syrian life, or an Israeli more important than a Palestinian (I'm talking civilians)? All lives matter, and Israel has killed too many civilians in the name of destroying terrorists. If they want to effectively destroy the enemy, they should invest more in intelligence and infiltration, not in bombs and guns. Killing more civilians will only cause more violence and support for them. Why did Hamas democratically win the elections in Gaza? Because of their social services, not their military. I don't know if you've heard of that, but Hamas was a social services group before it became a military one, it provided aid to those whose houses were bombed and food for the poor, and that was their main work in Gaza. It was because of that that they gained the support of the people. After they had that support, they started targeting Israel militarily using this as a justification, that they are liberating the people and preventing houses from being bombed. A majority of the people who voted for them in the elections (remember they won democratically) was because they wanted the aid and social services to keep going. They had no other choice but to save their own lives, and they thought that the military aspect was a downside that they would have to deal with to get the social services. Many of Hamas's supporters are poor, disabled, families who rely on the services. If they had another source of aid, they probably would not have supported Hamas. When Israel kills even more civilians, Hamas uses that as propaganda to rally more people against Israel. If Israel wants peace, they need to stop killing civilians and focus on the bigger target. Then, and only then, will Hamas lose its credibility, and then and only then will they be able to be destroyed, and then and only then will be peace
Posted by yuvalne 1 year ago
yuvalne
I am sad to know that even when you know the facts, you choose to support the BDS.
I've said, over and over, that Hamas uses people as human shields and the IDF has to choose: putting the Israelis in danger, or destroy those targets - while trying to avoid killing. Israel took the obvious decision, the same decision I believe almost any country will also make.
About an hour after I posted my last argument I read an article (in Hebrew) about the BDS, which displayed a point I'm sad I didn't have chance to include in this debate:
Factories in the West Bank hire mostly Palestinians, and the boycott of their products hurts the Palestinians much more than the Israelis. The BDS does exactly the opposite thing of its intention.
Again, I highly recommend to view the sources I've brought. Maybe they are biased, but there are many biased sources against Israel, so I think it's a good balance.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Overhead 1 year ago
Overhead
yuvalneOsamaTheCityzenTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct: Both were polite and neither stooped to negative comments despite the contentious topic. S&G: No significant errors for either side. Both didn't break up paragraphs. Argument and Sources: Problem with Con's argument can be summarised in his R4 statement "I see you find it hard to believe my word, and I understand why. So, instead of trusting me to tell you what is true and what isn't, why won't you check yourself?". It isn't the role of the contender or the voters to simply take CON at his word. CON only seems to realise this to a limited extent in R4 where he offers five sources but they do not support to his point. Looking at his B'Tselem related link as an example, he is backing up his opinion with an opinion piece in a newspaper rather than a solid evidence backed source. Furthermore the link between his source and his claim is tenuous. He claims B'Tselem is 'false' while the article seems to represent them as accurate but not taking into account the big pictur