The Instigator
Pro (for)
31 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
38 Points

Europe is Superior to the U.S

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Post Voting Period
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after 19 votes the winner is...
Voting Style: Open with Elo Restrictions Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/13/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 25,489 times Debate No: 68275
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (765)
Votes (19)




Interest may be shown in comments. First round acceptance.

Note to any potential takers that I am arguing in the general sense, that Europe is in fact superior to the United States. Example:





By "Europe", I mean the European continent.


1. greater in quality, quantity, etc.

2. of high or extraordinary worth, merit, etc.

3. higher in rank or status.

a. of higher grade or quality.


I accept.
Debate Round No. 1


Thanks to donald.keller for accepting this debate and good luck!


European lifestyle would be the key area in which there is sufficient evidence to show that it is superior to that of the U.S. Studies show disease that are heavily related to obesity and smoking are more prominent in the U.S than in Europe as an entire continent. Not only does this mean less individual healthiness but it's also extremely costly to the U.S as a whole. This amounts to as much as $100 billion to $150 billion a year in treatment costs to the U.S health care tab. University studies (such as one conducted by Emory University's Rollins School of Public Health) found higher rates of several serious diseases, such as cancer and heart disease among Americans 50 and older as compared with Europeans of the same age. As well as a study published on Web today by the Journal Health Affairs, which concluded that Americans were nearly twice as likely as Europeans to be obese (33.1%), and they also were more likely to be current or former smokers (53%.)

Another report released by the National Institutes of Health and conducted by the Institute of Medicine compared to U.S health statistics to 16 other high income earning countries (mostly European) and found that in most cases the U.S came last, this includes life expectancy and overall health throughout the entire lives. Other areas the U.S ranked last in are:

-Adverse birth outcome

-Injuries and homicides

-Adolescent pregnancy and sexually transmitted infection

-Drug-related mortality


-Heart disease

-Chronic lung disease

-And disabilities such as arthritis and activity limitations

Other areas the U.S fared worse in:

-Homicide rates

-Sexually transmitted diseases

-HIV infection and AIDS

-Infant mortality

The study specifically found that Americans consume more calories per person, are less physically active, eat less healthily, and have a higher rate of drug abuse. Over two-thirds of Americans are considered obese, compared to Europe where the number is noticeably less. In terms of life expectancy for men the European country of Switzerland ranked first, with the U.S being last behind all wealthy European countries and Australia and Japan. The U.S was second last in female life expectancy.

One researcher stated:

"This disadvantage has been getting worse for three decades, especially among women."

With another noting: "Shorter lives and poorer health in the United States will ultimately harm the nation's economy as health care costs rise and the workforce remains less healthy than that of other high-income countries."

Alluding further to European health and its overall superiority, a 2014 report published by Oxfam found the Netherlands was ranked first as the most healthiest country in the world. This is largely due to the country's low fat diet and strong emphasis on vegetable products. The relatively low food prices and low prevalence of obesity related illnesses are another a significant factor. Other European countries that dominated also the list include France and Switzerland, who both came in second place, followed by Austria, Belgium, Denmark and Sweden tying for third. As well as Australia, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Portugal all coming fourth.


One large reason why European culture is superior is its diversity. The European culture offers something for everyone, and is widely considered one of the most desirable tourist attractions in the world. The Mediterranean culture in particular attracts a wide array of visitors and countries such as Italy, Spain and Greece have much to offer in terms of cultural richness and historical significance. Other European countries such as England, France, Germany, Netherlands are also widely visited and again each have their own distinctive cultural features. Leading cities like Paris, London and Berlin are all part of the attraction.

A large number of the cities ranked best in the world have been in Europe. The International Consulting firm Mercer found in its yearly survey 2013 that Vienna, Austria, came out on top as the most "livable" city in the world (over 223 were evaluated.) Making it the winner for the fifth time in a row. While U.S cities did not even make it to the top 10.


Despite the U.S' large size, it is also seriously behind in education; both when compared to Europe and the rest of the world. The most recent 2014 study conducted by the Economist Intelligence Unit found that the U.S was ranked as low as number 14 in the worlds best education systems, once again being completely behind other countries. Even Poland which is categorized as one of the poorer and less developed European countries ranked as10th, making it seven places in front of the U.S. Places such as Finland, the U.K, the Netherlands, Ireland, Denmark, Germany, Russia, (and as above mentioned, Poland) all made it to the top 13 and were all above the U.S.

Another study made in 2012 specifically assessing the maths test scores for 15 year olds across the globe found that the U.S was ranked as low as 23rd in the countries researched. While a number of 13 European countries were in front of it. After Asian regions, Switzerland was ranked 7th, with the Netherlands being 8th and Finland being 12th. Once again Poland also did impressively and came 14th, followed by Germany being 15th, Ireland 17th, France 18th and the U.K achieving 19th place. Before the U.S also came Latvia, Portugal, Italy, Spain and Russia. One large factor in these results (particularly in the case of Finland) is the emphasis placed on mathematics and subjects such as physics, chemistry and biology. Concerning other elements in the curriculum, music and foreign languages are also widely taught in European schools. Discounting the U.K, which only prioritizes French as a compulsory subjuect, all European students are required to learn at least two languages while in school.


The difference in politics between Europe and the U.S is also considerable. Europe is generally upheld as being more liberal and progressive in its laws than the U.S. One example of this is the contrast in views on moral issues. British Newspaper the Guardian conducted a five country survey poll for and found that a majority 62% Europeans considered themselves socially liberal. While 24% stated that they were very liberal.

Naturally this liberalism has strongly presented itself through laws, such as those regarding drug use, prostitution, abortion, human rights, etc. Portugal was in fact one of the first countries to decriminalize to drug use and abolish all criminal penalties. While the Netherlands also has an extremely lenient outlook, with marijuana and other drugs that are considered soft being legal and drug use being considered a public health issue rather than a criminal matter, along with countries such as the Czech Republic and Norway.

The Netherlands was also the first country to legalize same-sex marriage in 2001, followed by Belgium in 2003. Other European countries including Spain, Norway, Sweden, Portugal, Iceland, Denmark, France, and Luxembourg soon followed suit. Gay marriage still remains a heavily disputed issue in the U.S and is outlawed in 14 states.

As well as gay marriage, Europe also officially legalized abortion before the U.S. Iceland was the first western country to legalize abortion (1935), followed by the U.K which carried out its first legal abortion in 1938. The issue of abortion was not addressed in the U.S until 1959, when a group called the American Law Institute tried to legalize the right to abortion for women. California was the first state to attempt a legalisation in this year but failed, and did not enact the guidelines until 1968. In 1976 the U.S also passed the "Hyde act" which prohibited any federal funds being used for abortion services.

Another example of the contrast in political views is the fact that the death penalty is abolished in Europe, with the only two exceptions being Belarus and Kazakhstan. This ban is both outlined in theCharter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (EU) and the European Convention on Human Rights of the Council of Europe. San Marino and Portugal were the first two European countries to abolish the death penalty. While it continues to be upheld in the U.S and still remains in the majority number of 32 states, thus making it a largely debated human rights issue.












I included Education in my Lifestyle rebuttal. I need not prove Europe is worse, simply that it is not objectively better.

Premise I: Europe v European Countries.

It must be established that this debate is about the European Continent (see R1.) Pro must understand that Europe is not the sum of it's parts here. If one nation has lower crime than the US, this does not equal Europe having a lower crime rate. Also that if one nation has a low crime rate and another has a high average income, that doesn't mean Europe has low crime and high income, as you can only live in one nation at a time. You would have to pick between them.

Argument I: Opinions and Relativity

Which is better is largely opinionated. Someone might care about culture more, while I care more about politics. Someone might care more about city life, while I care more about country life. Someone might prefer 'Free' Healthcare while I prefer less taxes. I might prefer Native American historic sites over Viking historical sites. I'm conservative, Europe's Liberal. Pro's Liberal, America's Conservative.

Which is better is less about what they have, and more about what the viewer wants.

Argument II: Economics

I took the Economics that relate strongly to Lifestyle and I moved them to the Lifestyle rebuttal.

The US's debt is smaller than most notable European Nations. The US Debt is 71% of the economy, compared to Europe's 94%. There is also unemployment. The EU maintains an unemployment rate of 10.5% (which is 0.4% higher than last year) compared the the US's 7.3% (which is down by 0.8% from last year.) (1, 2) The EU also maintains high dependency on Foreign Oil.

The US's average oil cost as of 1/12/15 (including taxes) was $2.55 a gallon. Compared to the UK's $6.26, Netherlands's $6.62, Italy's $6.60, Germany's $5.81, France's $5.75, and Belgium's $5.79... To put this in perspective, if your car holds 20 gallons, filling it up in the UK would cost you $125.20. For the same amount, you can fill that car up 2.5x in the US (3). And the UK wasn't even the most expensive. Europe gets over 50% of it's Oil from Russia, and nearly 20% from the Middle East (4). Almost none of it's oil comes from itself. The US get's 38.8% of it's Oil from it's own soil, and 73.5% of it's Oil from itself, Latin America and Canada. Only 12.9% comes from the Persia Gulf, 8.1% of which is Saudi Arabian (an ally)(5). The US has great gas prices and is mostly energy independent.

When compared by GDP Per Capita, the UK (when added into the US as a state) was 50th place, with only Mississippi being below it (6). The highest a major European Nation gets is the Netherlands, halfway down the list by Missouri. Every large major nation (France, UK, Germany, Spain, etc) saw themselves well under the halfway point. Only Switzerland and Norway compared to the top 15 states, but they aren't very respresentative of Europe.

Rebuttal I: Lifestyle

Pro lists off a long list of medical issues faced in the US. However, it must be stated that a medical issue being common in a nation must be intrinsic to that nation before you can claim it effects how great the nation is. Unlike crime, many medical issues are based on the person, not the nation. Obesity in the US isn't intrinsic to the US. You do not risk becoming obese by being in the US, but by how you live your life. Your risk will be equally as high no matter which continent you're on. Living in the US does not make you more prone to these issues. Drug-relate mortality, for example, is based on your choices, not your nation. Yes, the US eats more calories. This does not impact your personal experience, or make the US a worse place to live, unless you yourself choice to eat the same amount.

Regarding Crimes: Crimes like rape crimes are common in European nations, where the UK, Ireland, Belgium, and Sweden have rape rates that are as much as 3x the US's (7). Pro brought up several crimes generally, like murder. It should be stated that the US's murder rate is only 1.7 per 100,000 higher than Europe. What's the relevance of this? Simply put, that isn't a lot. This is small enough to deem both areas near equally safe, in a world were the average homicide rate is around 7 per 100,000 (8). The point is that both are too small to be held empirical. The quality of one's life simply isn't impacted by such a small different.

As for crime in general... Pro greatly loses out on this area. Here is the average (rounded) violent crime rates per 1,000,000: (9)
USA - 350
Europe - 590

The USA has almost half the violent crime rate as Europe.

But crime isn't the only topic. There is also economics. The US has an average wage of $44,753. This is higher than every European nation. The second highest was Ireland, which was $6,000 beneath the US. It must be stated that this is spendable pay (taking out taxes.) The US was still on top before taxes, and after taxes the gap widened greatly. The Average of the top 15 European Nations is $26,300 (lower if you include all of them) (10). The Average Medium Income of the US is 30,932. The average for Europe is $20,870 (11). The GDP per Capita of the US is $53,000, while the European Union's is $34,000 (12). The US has a Gross National Income of $16.9 million, compared to Europe's highest... Germany, at $3.7 million (13).

There is also the matter of taxes and cost of living. The US has a Cost of Living rate of 76.53% (100% being the cost of living in New York City.) Of the 23 nations worse the US, 14 were European. Generally, Europe's average Cost of Living was 83%. If you only include Western Europe (notably the best of Europe), it's around 90%. Of the only 5 nations with 100+ Cost of Living, 4 are European (14). As for taxes, Europe is known for high tax rates, but here's the information. The US's taxes nearly 26% of the economy, compared to Europe's 38%. The highest 8 European Nations is over 40%. No European nation was below the US (15).

With such expansive costs of living and oil prices, with such lower wages, Europe is an economically terrible place to live compared to the US.

Education is a poor topic to bring up because it's never right. Comparing Education Systems is impossible because every nation follows a different system. One nation might have better students than another nation when compared using their standards, but do worse when compared using the other nations standard. One such issue can be seen in Graduation Rates, where the ACE explains that comparing nation's education (in this case, Graduation Rates) is impossible because of factors like acceptance policies and economics. As well as if the students are foreign or domestic (18)

Rebuttal II: Culture

From New York to California, you'll find the same amount of culture as you would in Europe. Only one European nation outranks the US in Tourism, that being France. It only does so by 20% (16). Why is this such a big ordeal? Free Travel. It costs money to enter the US. Using Priceline to find a single adult ticket from New York to Paris and back, the price for the poorest coach ranged from $800 - $1650. Given these limitations, the US is comparing outstandingly to Europe, where going from anywhere to France is a few gallons a gas.

The US owns the world's movie industry, with 35 of the top 50 top grossing films of all time being US-Made (17). Of the remaining 15, they are mostly split between Harry Potter and LoTR. The US also owns much of the book industry. The US is responsible for literally half of the top 84 best selling authors of all time (18).

The US also created: Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck. Star Wars. Bugs Bunny. Loony Toons. Superman, Spiderman, Batman, almost every other Superhero, as well as Supernatural, MASH, FRIENDS, I Love Lucy, and numerous other classics.

What this comes down to, however, is my Argument I: Relative Opinion.

Rebuttal III: Freedom

Pro makes several fallacious statements here. Her first is comparing liberal policy as being better (freer) policy. A conservative would greatly argue against that. Liberalism is not freer or better policy by default. Pro must prove it's better. Pro then brings up individual cases. Abortion, Drug Use, and Prostitution, as examples. These are highly controversial, especially Abortion.

By stating all this as her opening, she indirectly concedes to the US being better politically to every Conservative reading the debate.

As for Freedom, how do you rate that? Liberals and Conservatives both think their system is the path to freedom. Literally. They both think the other is the path to slavery. Their ideas of independence is different. Conservatives believes Independence and Freedom is being able to do something yourself. Liberals believes it's being freed of costs and debts.

But there are some real measurements. Europe has an Economic Freedom score of 67% compared to the US's 75%. Europe's Freedom from Corruption ranking is 55% compared to the US's 72%. Europe's Property Rights are 61% compared to the US's 80%. Europe's Labor Freedom is 62% compared to the US's 97%. Europe's Business Freedom is 78% compared to the US's 89% (19, 20)

Pro brought this up as a political issue. I'm taking it into actual policy. Europe is plagued by a PC era where saying the wrong thing can land you a fine. Most European nations have a policy against "hate speech." This policy has costed people for simply saying something that offended another person. People can even be arrested for 'hate speech.' Hate speech is largely dependent on the person's definition of what counts as hate, leading bad and abused interpretations. A priest was arrested in the UK for quoting a line of of sins from the Bible, when he listed homosexuality (21).


Whether you believe Europe is better is a matter of opinion. While they average below the US in Economic Freedom, have terrible policies for a Conservative, high taxes and a poorer economy, as well as a higher violent crime rate.

Europe is not better than the US. Equal or worse, but not better.

Debate Round No. 2


Debate Premise

Firstly I'd remind Con that European countries are part of the European continent. Therefore, all I have to do to fulfill the resolution is show that a large portion of European countries outdo the U.S in a number of areas. Such as education (as highlighted, reports show that the U.S is particularly behind in primary education, health care, crime rates, social freedoms, etc.) On the contrary to just referencing "one" European country in each contention, considerable numbers have been outlined. By covering important areas in which Europe fairs better than the U.S, and including a large quantity of European countries, I have shown considerable evidence to support my case. Con has the task of proving my argument wrong and showing conclusively that Europe is indeed not superior to the U.S.

Opinions and Relatively

While opinion can lead you to a debate, such as which out of Europe or the U.S is better, the actual argument itself is can be substantiated in the case of statistics and reports; two things that are heavily used in my own arguments. Note that less emphasis was placed on culture, and that most of my contentions are based on things that can be objectively proven, such as health care, crime rates, education, and social freedoms, which are significantly behind in the U.S. Con may be a conservative, but social freedoms are almost entirely looked at as being objectively desirable in the West. The death penalty is considered wholly outdated in Europe, as well as being viewed as an infringement on basic human rights. Note that in the U.S, a number of people have been wrongly executed. Each execution is also very expensive. Abortion is also justified as being a legal right to women, yet it took the U.S an extremely long time to catch up with legalization and even now there remains significant controversy over it. Once again, homosexual rights such as gay marriage are also strongly upheld in Europe and have existed there for notably longer than in the U.S. As was outlined in round two, gay marriage is still illegal in 32 American states. European Catholic countries such as Spain were some of the first to legalize gay marriage. The reason why these issues are significant is because the U.S is universally seen as being one of the most leading countries in the world, yet it is greatly behind in the area of civil liberties.


Not only did I (Pro) list off a long list of medical issues faced in the U.S but I also showed that they were more prominent there. To to the extent where it is easily concluded that U.S health matters are inferior to Europe's as an entire whole. It's also not exclusively diet-related areas in which the U.S severely lacks in, but areas such a birth outcome (in the U.S it is more adverse), injuries and homicide rates, adolescent pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections, drug-related mortality and infant mortality were all found to be higher in the U.S. Con places all emphasis on the dietary aspects to the U.S' medical issues, but as can be seen, poorer and inferior treatment expands across the whole U.S health care system and isn't just restricted to one area (such as diet) only.

Con also exclaims that it must be shown that the case diet-related medical issues are intrinsic to the U.S as a nation, but I'd note that the large rate of obesity and diet-related health issues in the U.S already offer significant indication of an intrinsic national problem. Given that the U.S is an affluent country with no valid reason to be one of the most unhealthiest in the world and have some the lowest life expectancy rates, this should of course be highlighted. The fast food culture in the U.S, something that is also intrinsic to its culture, naturally plays a large part. Note that I'm not saying American individuals do not make the efforts to be healthy, but that as a whole the nation faces significant health concerns and has been consistently found to have poorer diets than Europe; or even more importantly, the rest of the world. The case of lifestyle and Europe being superior in terms of health thus remains uncontested. The U.S having more issues with health care (not only diet-related) is contradicted by the fact that in comparison to Europe and other affluent parts of the world, it spends the highest amount on its health care system. Presumably a large part of this money goes towards treating obesity,etc.

17.6 percent of the U.S economy goes towards health care, meaning that the U.S spending is more than two and a half higher than that of European countries, particularly France, the U.K and Sweden.

The Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) — an international economic group comprised of 34 member nations also found that there are fewer physicians per person than in most other OECD countries. In 2010, for instance, the U.S had 2.4 practicing physicians per 1,000 people, which is well below below the OECD average of 3.1.

Another example of the significant difference between European and U.S health care is accessibility. It's long been established that receiving health treatment in the U.S can be extremely costly, as well a large number of citizens not being fully insured, thus making it more difficult to health care.

In the U.S it can cost $100,000 for people to have a hip replacement, immeasurably higher than Europe. Such expensive prices have meant that Americans have actually gone as far as seeking treatment in European nations.


Con makes the assertion that Europe has more of a violent crime than the U,S, however, all evidence points to this being incorrect. I've demonstrated that gun crime is by far more of a problem in the U.S than Europe and that homicide, which is categorized as one the most criminal acts, is significantly higher. Therefore Con cannot state that U.S has less than half of the violent crime in Europe, as Europe has less homicides combined. I'd secondly note to Con that no European cities have been reported as being the most dangerous in the world, while a total of 5 U.S cities came up in the top 50 with the remaining others being situated in Mexico and South America.

There is a large difference in the types of violent crime between Europe and the U,S. 80% of the violent crime in places such like the U.K for instance occurred with no weapons used, While in the U.S, weaponry is a common factor. Another difference is that 68% of the violent crimes in the U.S are homicides, again higher than the U.K and of ther European countries.
Con also states that Europe has more rape than the U.S, however, European countries such as Norway, Finland, Slovakia, and Greece, are all behind the U.S in that area. The U.S still has some of the largest rape crime rates in the world. In fact, rape statistics in the U.S are 17 times higher than that of India, a country that also has a rape issue. A 2014 study found that 1200 females are raped each month in the U.S.

Strangely, more men are raped in the U.S than anywhere else in the world.


Cons argument about economics and wage difference is also rather misplaced as a number of European countries have been found to have superior minimum wages to the U.S. These include Luxembourg, which has a wage that goes up to almost $16 per hour, Ireland, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Greece (a place that's had economic struggle) and the U.K also fair superior. The U.K has minimum wage that reaches up to $12 per hour. Other European countries such as Spain and Slovenia are only slightly behind the U.S.

Over the past two years, the European economy has noticeably improved. Particularly in the cases of the U.K, Spain, Ireland and even Greece; which has experienced considerable improvement.


Con suggests that just because of the U.S movie business, that it can be viewed as superior to Europe's culture. A vast number of American classics have featured European stars, as well as other people working behind the scenes. In fact, many of the ideas are European. Europe has contributed heavily to the arts, both in terms of film and literature. Regarding who's invented the most over a longer period of time, Europe would undoubtedly come first. More importantly, in terms of which culture has more to offer to different tastes, the answer for a lot would again be Europe. It is home to some of the most visited countries in the world, as well as being rich in history, something that the U.S doesn't necessarily have to the same extent. Some of the finest artistic concepts (such as philosophy, drama, comedy, etc.) have originated and been cultivated in Europe.


As mentioned in round two, Europe has progressed into recognizing basic civil liberties far sooner than the U.S. People may have different ideas of freedom, but it's generally seen as something that cannot and should not infringe upon the rights of others. Europe has been quicker to advance from religious dogma and instead prioritize individual human rights. The case of gay marriage in particular is a valid example of how the U.S is behind Europe in the area of basic liberty.








Premise I: Europe Vs European Countries.

Pro is mistaken as to what my Premise means. It means that she can not show that because Nation A has less crime and Nation B has higher wages (Although no European Nation has higher average wages), that Europe has less crime and higher wages. She misrepresents my case here.

Premise II: Relativity.

Pro assumes that because statistics and arguments matter, that she can objectively prove Europe is better. This is not true. As I have mentioned, most of her arguments are relative, and even if they weren't, that doesn't make them equal. If a Conservative concerned himself with Politics more than Culture, and I lost the Culture argument, the fact that Pro stated Europe was far more Liberal, I'd still win in the Conservative's eyes. If a Liberal was more concerned with Education than Politics, and I win Education but lose Politics, I'd still win. When weighing arguments of who/what is better, the voter decides. Two people may have the same opinion, and one be happy and the other sad with their country because of how they wiegh their opinions.

Who is voting determines which categories matter more. As well as their opinions (Conservative, Liberal, Christian, etc...) This is because the matter is still largely Relative.

Some arguments that are relative; Liberal Politics v Conservative Politics. Freedom from Government v Freedom from Companies. Culture.
Lifestyle and Economics are largely the only objective arguments here.

Rebuttal I: Lifestyle.

Pro again repeats that the US has numerous health issues and so these must be intrinsic. This is false causation. Since the health issues are not caused by being a US Citizen, it is intrinsic to the personal habits of each citizen, and not to the US. Unless being a US Citizen causes these health issues, it's not intrinsic to the country itself. Pro could spend a decade in the US, and not face these issues, because they are personally caused, not nationally caused.

The number of Doctors isn't important. More =/= better. In fact, the Waiting Lists in Europe are massive in comparison to the US. While in the UK, around 21% of curable lung cancer patients become incurable while on the wait list (1). In the UK, the majority of patients wait over four hours to see a doctor (2) compared to the average of less than an hour in the US (3). Waiting lists in Europe are generally dangerously high compared to the US (4). US patent are barely aware a waiting list exists (5). Despite Pro's claims, the US has substantial access to doctors. Cost of healthcare is also not relevant unless it proves to be dangerous to living here. In reality, higher costs are better than dangerous waiting lists. Pro also fails to establish any of her claims with sources. A Supreme Court Judge said best with the following quote:

"Access to a waiting list is not access to health care..." -Chaoulli v. Quebec

Europe has poor access to Healthcare. Often taking entires months to do what the US does in a month or less.

Regarding Crimes: Pro's case is entirely Fallacious. Pro states that because the US has more homicides, Europe must have less overall crimes. Or that because no European City is in the top most violent list, that her case wins. Pro did nothing to prove her case. She has no sources or stats on Overall Violent Crime. I did. Not all Violent Crimes are Homicides. There are Robberies, Rapes, Assault, and more. As my R2 sources states, the US has half the number of wiolent crimes in total as Europe (6). If Pro wants to counter this, she must post actual stats for Violent Crimes. Not just the crimes that match her narrative.

Regarding Rape. More men getting raped isn't relevant. And is this statistical (1 out of every X) or a whole number (1 total)? To cherry-picked men and not observe the full number is fallacious. More men =/= worse rape. More total = worse rape. In reality, places like the UK, Belgium and Sweden, face far higher rapes per capita than the US (Sweden has literally twice the number of rapes per capita)(7).

Rebuttal II: Economics:

Pro's case is rather silly... Minimum Wage =/= Higher Wage. Even if so, to many, higher minimum wage is bad. As my stats shown, the actual wages in the US are above that of ALL European Nations. Pro has no case here. Luxembourg, her main case, may have a higher minimum wage, but the US outranks it in both gross and disposable income by over $11,000 a year (8).

To continue the Argument... The US has increased it's number of employed so much that it has put more people back to work (using actual increased workforce, not lower unemployement rates) than ALL "Advanced Economies" minis Hong Kong and Taiwan (note: not European.) To add context: The International Monetary Fund classifies 36 countries as advanced economies (9). These include most of Europe. Not only did the US put more people back to work than Germany, France, and the UK... They put more people back to work than each of those put together + 31 other advanced economies combined (10).

The US has, since 2009, increased it's workforce by over 4.2%, compared to the 1.9% of all Advanced Economies and the 2.4% of all G7 Countries (consider "Major Advanced Countries")(11).

Pro's arguments does not account for my claim about Oil Dependency, prices, Cost of Living, Economic Freedom, GPD, Unemployment and Taxes. Pro has dropped these cases.

Rebuttal III: Culture.

Pro assumes that because US Movies have some European stars, they are European Movies as well. Pro also ignores that European Movies have American Stars too. Pro dropped Books, TV shows, and the records I posted.

Pro is correct that Europe has the most visited nations in the world. However, this is ignorant of the very first paragraph of my R2 rebuttal. It is also ignorant of the fact that, because of open borders (something most Conservatives and even many Europeans oppose), the gap between Unique Visitors and Total Visitors is extremely high (many a high inflation rate in Tourist numbers {meaning high numbers become meaningless}). If one guy goes from the UK to France, then to Belgium, he counts as 2 tourists, but still only counts as one guy, and isn't an impressive display of Culture.

Pro is wrong to claim the US has no long-term history. The US has Native American history and culture. Native American history dates back as far as 12,600 years (12). Also, having more history =/= having the best history. Remember (based on my R2 arguments) that over 70 million people are willing to pay $1000+ to visit the US. If the people visiting France had to pay that much, you'd see the number drop drastically. That being said, having more visitors is meanlingless (see prior paragraph) if the price is low enough. If fine diners cost $40 to eat that compared to $10 at McDonald's, does it mean McDonald's has more business because it's product is better?

Rebuttal IV: Politics:

Pro's case is, again, entirely relative. Every Conservative reading her case would disagree that European Liberal policies make Europe freer or better. Pro hadsn't listed off the application of Liberal Policies in Europe. She has only stated that europe is Liberal, and stated things meant to reinforce that they are Liberal. I have actually stated a controversial policy that is a product of European Liberalism and shown how this policy reduced Freedom of Speech. To restate the argument, a man was arrested for stating (in a private conservation) that the Bible say Homosexuality is wrong. This move was legal, as the gay police officer found it violated Liberally enforced Hate Speech laws. To state Europe is freer is unsupportable, especially when pro's only argument is about how "progressive and liberal" it is.

Europe is also plagued by a rise in policy based on the Healthcare myth that Vaccine's lead to Autism.

Pro has effectively dropped my entire case, deciding to only repeat her own.

Rebuttal V: Education:

Pro has largely dropped the case on Education. I wish to reinstate the argument. Pro's main argument steamed from a study that shows that US is at least around 11th place. This is correct from the wrong angle, and incorrect from the right angle.

The ranking is based on scores. However, Pro's case lines them up. This style makes massive gaps between countries that aren't reallyfar apart, and doesn't represent the scores properly. And example: Lithuania is 10th place. Germany is 12th places (2 whole places under the prior nation). This makes Lithuania better, right? No. Because Lithuania's actual score is only 5 higher... Out of over 600... They are, in fact, tied. The two nations are seperated by only 00.95% (or 1 out of 1000), but Pro's style makes them appear like the first nation is entires ranks above Germany. Scores are grouped together because of that issue. Since Lithuania's score is 630 and the US's 629, meaning they are tied, they are the same rank. To put them in 10th place and 11th place doesn't correctly represent their scores. Margin of Error means the US could even be higher than Lithuania with how similar their scores are. That being said, the US is in 5th place with Germany (14).

Pro is also mistaken in her assessment in that she states the US is only 11th place but doesn't rank the US with only European Nations. In reality, the highest European Nation on the list is Russia, who is only 3% higher than the US in score. By the actual ranking method, the highest European Nation is in 4th place, just 1 above the US. Only 3 European Nations are in that rank. The US outranks most every other European Nation.


Pro has not proven that Europe in objectively better than the US. Europe has a worse healthcare, worse crime rate, and a worse economy, while politics and culture are relative matters, and the US and Europe's education system is in close range of each other if you exclude 51 of their 56 countries.

Europe might be worse or equal, but they are not better than the US.

Debate Round No. 3



Firstly, I not mistaken in as to what his "premise" means. On the contrary, Con is mistaken as to what my premise means. In asserting that Europe is superior to the U.S, it's obvious individual European countries will be used to support my case as they are part of Europe. Even in showing that one European country is superior to the U.S in a certain area, I am still fulfilling my resolution as this country is technically part of Europe. However, I'd note that I've displayed a number of different countries and have proven that they fair better in many areas; most notably health care and civil liberties.


Again, this is where Con has a misunderstanding of my argument. In any debate about any subject matter, statistics count and are therefore used as evidence. Most of my arguments are not relative as I have used statistics that are objective in support of my case. In all of my contentions, statistics have been used. Con should have been aware that statistics are a natural part of an argument, and that in certain areas of who fairs better [such as civil liberties] he may be in personal disagreement with. However, as highlighted previously, the civil liberties demonstrated are almost entirely seen as being something desirable in the West; and more importantly, as progressive. Though Con may individually disagree with some of them, this doesn't necessarily undermine their importance in establishing who out of the U.S and Europe is the most socially free and has the most civil liberties. Given how civil liberties are defined, Europe would again win in this area. As civil liberty is a valid argument in itself, Con is incorrect in stating that the "Lifestyle and economics are largely the only objective arguments here".

It was highlighted in round one that "freedom" [civil liberties] would be a topic, as well as "culture" and "education".


I'd remind Con that by "intrinsic", the implication is with U.S society and not necessarily all American individuals. The fact remains that health issues are significantly prevalent in the U.S and this suggests that there is an inherent problem with the diet of many Americans and the overall culture of food. As highlighted in round three, the existence of fast food businesses in the U.S is a large contributor to a lot of its issues with obesity and other issues; which are all higher and more pervasive than in all European countries. There is a list of a total of 14 areas of health that the U.S is notably poor in, and significantly more so than Europe. This includes obesity, heart disease, chronic lung disease, and even area such as HIV and AIDS. Not only is the prevalence more apparent in these areas. My first study fully demonstrates the fact that Americans consume more calories per person, are less physically active, and have a higher drug abuse problem than all European countries. This in itself is enough to prove that Europe is indeed superior in the area of lifestyle and health. Not only in terms of experiencing such issues, but also in terms of treating them.

I'll reiterate again that over two-thirds of Americans are obese and that life expectancy for men is behind all wealthy European countries, including Switzerland which came first. As well as being second last among all wealthy nations in female life expectancy.

Con attempts to use the argument that the U.S is better in treating lung cancer, but the argument of 14 other ailments/issues the U.S has a higher prevalence of and failure in treating remains entirely uncontested.

Con has also largely dropped the "costs" case, which is important in any argument as to whether European or U.S health care is better. Con failed to contend the statistic that the U.S spends more than all other developed countries. Despite this, it still has the biggest issue with obesity related problems and other ailments, and one of the most unhealthiest records out. Another example of the significance of this statistic, is the fact that the U.S still continues to have fewer doctors than comparable countries, which thoroughly contradicts Cons claim that "the U.S has substantial access to doctors". Con has also not recognized the relevance of having a costly health care system. The finances aimed towards it have failed to effectively tackle the issue of obesity and other dietary-related issues, as well as the prevalence of lung cancer and sexually transmitted diseases.

Another example of a European country that does considerably better in health care in Germany. Which introduced "disease-management programs" as early as 2002. These programs place emphasis on preventing as well as effectively managing illnesses. The U.S has no other such system in place.


Con should specifically outline where my arguments are "fallacious". For something to fit that definition, it actually has to be a "fallacy". Whereas my own assertions relating to crime in Europe and the U.S are not. The fact that no European cities showed up on the most violent list, while a number of five U.S cities did, strongly suggests that the U.S has more of an issue with violence on the whole. A number of five U.S cities in comparison to no European cities is valid evidence in support of my argument.

I also related to Con that the U.S is worse than Europe in cases of violent crime. Such as gun-related incidents, and homicides. As for rape, the point of outlining the fact that the U.S has more male rapes was to demonstrate that the U.S does have a considerable issue with rape and that it has some of the highest rape statistics. As my argument is covering Europe as an entire whole, to actually win this particular case Con would have to show that all or at least a majority amount of European countries have more issues with rape than the U.S; which is simply not the case.


The U.S has also had extreme difficulty with its own economy [more some European countries.] The U.S debt currently stands at $16.394 Trillion, and is expected to rise significantly by 2018. Con may be surprised to know that U.S debt is actually a lot worse than a number of European countries combined. In fact, the U.S has some of the worst and growing debts out. This debt exceeds that of European nations such as the U.K, Germany, France, Italy, and Russia.

Regarding wages, the purpose of outlining how Europe is largely superior to the U.S in minimum wages was to show that when judged on a whole scale, in a number of European countries wages are better to those in the U.S. Even in Greece people can be paid up to $12 per hour, which still works out a better than the maximum for minimum wage in the U.S. A total of eight European countries are clearly in front of the U.S in this area, which thus counts as a valid contention in who receives the best wages and how much the wages reach.


Con falsely asserts that I've assumed because some US movies have European stars, they are thus European movies. This is not the case. What I stated was that a large number of US movies have strong European influence, both in terms of acting, writing, directing, etc. The case of books, records, etc. was also related. In fact, I explicitly mentioned that Europe had contributed heavily to "the arts". This includes literature and music, two fields that Europe has had immeasurable influence in. Some of the most well-known philosophers originate from Europe, as well as the most widely regarded authors, poets and playwrights [Shakespeare for example.] In terms of long-term musical influence across different genres, Europe again wins. Some examples would be classical music, as well as rock and pop music; in which Britain in particular has contributed heavily to. In terms of history, it would be obvious that the U.S does not have the same length of history than Europe. I am specifically talking about "U.S" history not Native America or America before the U.S.


The case on education was not dropped, rather I simply ran out of characters. My argument showed that the U.S is particularly behind in primary education and that is come behind a considerable number of European countries. The maths report in round one explicitly showed that European countries were well ahead of the U.S in the area of school mathematics. How far apart countries actually are is irrelevant, the point is that the U.S is still behind in these areas. Con places all emphasis on Lithuania [which is still technically in front] and drops the case of other European countries being high, or at least middle, of the list. The fact that the U.S is behind these nations supports my resolution, as these nations are part of Europe.

I would also note that the assessment of the U.S being 11th place is correct according to the studies. In contending, Con is only arguing with statistics.

Civil Liberty:

The two examples Con has listed are isolated ones, obviously not delivered in their full context.

Con mistakenly states that this area is entirely relative. I'll state again that again that civil liberties, in other words "human rights", are almost entirely upheld as something integral to all western countries; and as progressive. Therefore, the fact that the U.S is significant behind in civil liberties such as gay marriage and the death penalty. A majority number of U.S states continue to outlaw gay marriage, and the death penalty, something long disregarded in the majority of European nations, still continues to be practiced. Whether Con agrees with the European stance in these areas ore not, as "civil liberties" are classified actual legal items, Europe is objectively superior to the U.S in this area. In contending this, Con is necessarily disputing my arguments; but rather the existence of "civil liberties" and how they apply to whether a nation is progressive or not.





Pro has posted arguments in the last round. I must post counter-arguments or risk dropping numerous claims now. I will keep news counter-arguments to a minimum, but I must post them none-the-less now.

Premise I: Europe v European Countries

Pro's Premise does not relate to mine. I explained that Nation A having less crime and Nation B having more income does not mean Europe has less crime and more income, especially since you can only live in Nation A or Nation B. This is empirically true, as the alternative (Sum of It's Parts) is a fallacy. Her Primse is that she must only prove one nation is better... However, she states that we are arguing in a general sense (read R1 opening) and therefore she must prove that Europe is generally better.

Premise II: Relativity

Pro is mistaken to assume all of the arguments can be objectively proven. Only Economics and Lifestyle are objective (most of Lifestyle, at least) while culture and politics is not. What culture you prefer (Rome v New York, for example) is relative, and which Political Ailment is best is a matter of opinion until one is proven objectively true... Something that is outside this debate's size and scope to prove.

Pro can not objectively prove to a Conservative that Europe is better because they legalized Abortion and Gay Marriage.

Rebuttal I: Lifestyle

A) Healthcare

Pro still asserts that because most Americans are obese, that they are obese because they are American. This is false correlation and causation. To prove America is worse, she must show that America is the reason they are obese. And correction: Most Americans are overweight, not obese. Obesity is not the same as just being overweight.

Pro nitpicks my argument. I didn't say America was better because it attended to one ailment faster... But all Ailments. If you reread my argument, Lung Cancer was only one example, the argument was in a general sense. If pro had checked my sources, she'd know that. In almost every field of medical emergencies, the US is better than Europe. In Europe, it takes 4x as long to attend to any given emergency (as my source states.)

European Life Expectancy vs American Life Expectancy isn't a huge issue since the divide between the US and the top European nation is just over 3 years (1). A difference so small is hardly empirical. It states a lot about the US Medical Industry that, with all those ailments, the US is still only 3 years behind Iceland. Also, I never dropped the cost case. I explained that costs are less as important as getting to the ER in time, something few Europeans do. Pro believes expense is a vital statistic here, but spending less =/= better spending. Pro has given no reason to believe that the US is spending too much. Not just that the US is spending more. Even though the US spends more, it must be remembered that the US also earns more. Pro states that Germany has a program the US doesn't. So? What impact has it had? Pro's argument bares no context and fall flat of being empirical. Pro's claim is also false. Germany may have Government Programs, but that doesn't mean the US doesn't have Disease Management Programs. In Fact, the US has a large privatized industry (which, to any Conservative, sounds better than Government-ran programs.)(2)

B) Crimes

Regarding crimes. I stated how Pro's claim was a fallacy because she cherry-picked her crimes by including only homicide, and leaving out Rape, Robbery, Assault, and others. Also by only showing male-rapes and leaving out female-rapes. There need not be more context than that. And she does it again by discussing cities only. I don't recall the US and Europe were just a bunch of cities... If you actually look at the total rate of crime, Europe is double the US (per capita). Pro continues to ignore this and focus only on places and specific crimes that helps her case. And using the cities that help suggest? Suggestive evidence only works if there is no empirical evidence. I have shown empirically the total violent crimes rates.

Pro treats Homicide and Gun Violence as the only violence that matters. Arguing further against her cherry-picked stats is pointless. Europe has more violent crime and more rape. Side stats (male only rape, for example) is not important here, as they are cherry-picked and contextless. Rape is higher among men in the US? Rape is higher, period, in Europe.

Pro has dropped my case on Cost of Living.


Rebuttal II: Economics.

Debt is NOT measured by size, but by interest and Per Capita percentages. I stated debt in my R2 argument. Pro dropped it, and is now bringing it back up.

The US has a relatively small debt. At $16.4 trillion, as Pro states, the debt would be only 93% of the economy [2] (although the debt is a bit larger than that, Pro's numbers are outdated. It's actually 106%). However, it should also be stated that only debt owed to other nations is considered debt. The rest is internal. Including external debt, the debt is 72.5% of the economy [3]. This puts the US behind Germany, Spain, France, UK, Greece, and Italy. Those aren't the only one's though.

The Actual Debt:

US - 106%
Europe - 158%

External Debt:
US - 72.5%
Europe - 161%

(All averages found using Google Sheets on Source 3).
As I said earlier... The US has less Debt than most European Nations. No major European Nation is under the US.

Pro continues saying that because Minimum Wage is higher in Europe, that Wages are also higher. I have literally stated the actual wages, and the US is $6,000 a year ahead of the highest earning European Nation. Minimum Wages does not mean higher wages. This suggestive data only works when empirical data is not present, but it is present. Greece has a higher minimum wage? They'll need it since the actually Average Wage there is only $15,000 a year, $30,000 less than the US (see source 8 in R3.)

Pro dropped my case about Unemployment, Increased Work Force, Oil Prices, Oil Dependency, and Taxes.


Rebuttal III: Culture.

Pro's case does not imply that US Films are not evidence for US Culture. If anything, it's evidence that European actors and directors enjoy working with US Culture. Meanwhile, it doesn't account for shows like Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny. Or the Books and Authors I listed off. And Native American culture is a part of US culture. Unless Pro can prove that you can find Native American ruins in Europe, it stands that the only place to find those is in America. Pro can't include cultures that help her, than exclude any that doesn't help her.

Pro dropped my case on Tourists. It should be noted that a tourist from Germany visiting France is no different than a New Yorker visiting Washington DC.

Rebuttal IV: Education.

Pro must understand that not having enough characters is not a reason to drop cases. One must delete excess and find space to counter everything said.

Pro claims that how far apart scores are isn't important. This is false. That is not are scores are measured, at all. If Pro can't measures numbers the way the are meant to be measured (Debt to GPD, Scores based on groups, etc...) then her measurements will be wrong. As I stated last round, Russia, the top ranked nation in Europe or education, is only 3% higher than the US. Margin of Error is higher than that. Scores are grouped together since the gap between scores is everything that matters. This is why Timmy, with an 87% in school, is not ranked behind Tommy, with an 89%... They are ranked equally as B+ students.

To say the US is behind is to ignore the means by which scores are ranked.

Rebuttal V: Politics.

Pro's case is repetitive and meaningless by this point. Unless she proves that Gay Marriage should be legal and the Death Penalty is wrong, her case is relative, and falls short of every voter who believes Gay Marriage is wrong and the Death Penalty is right. You can not simply say "I have X" without first proving X is good.

Pro can not just say "it lacks context." Pro must give the context it lacks, or her case here is void. My case may not be common, but the arrest, as my source stated, was legal. This means that you can be arrested for saying the Bible is against Homosexuality. Hate Speech is still Freedom of Speech, the US recognizes that as every citizens right. Pro has only explained that Europe is Liberal, which makes it worse than the US to anyone who is against Liberalism. Human Rights are not entirely objective. Most Americans believe in the Death Penalty, so to say the Death Penalty is wrong in the US without proving it is meaningless.

Pro has not aimed to show Europe is better... Just that it's more Liberal.


Pro has only repeated her arguments. She has done little to add to them, and has dropped most of mine.

Europe has:
-Higher Debt
-Higher Taxes
-Higher Unemployment
-Higher Violent Crime Rates
-Worse Waiting List for Emergencies
-Lower Wages
-Lower Rate of Added Jobs

The US has:
-Higher Wages
-Faster ER Time
-Lower Oil Prices
-Lower Taxes
-Higher Increase in Employment
-Higher Oil Independence

Culture is Relative
Politics is Relative

Europe is not better than the US.
If anything, Europe is economically, criminally, and (to a Conservative) politically worse than the US.
Debate Round No. 4
765 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by tajshar2k 1 year ago
The debate that inspired me to join :D
Posted by freakazoid 2 years ago
good debate
Posted by donald.keller 2 years ago
Emil deactivated her account?
Posted by Beginner 2 years ago
Damn bluesteel.. you had to surf through all of this sht to find the RFD's major props. XD
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Yep, he has.

so am I lol. I never imagined that it would receive this much drama and become the most commented on debate in DDO history..amazing.
Posted by donald.keller 2 years ago
He has been very fair.

I'm shocked the debate ended with the kind of drama it did. I mean, I enjoyed the drama a lot, but never expected it. This was just a tiny debate I wanted to do lol.
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
That's fine, will be looking at what you have to say.

I personally think that Airmax has done a very good job and has been as fair as possible.
Posted by donald.keller 2 years ago
Can't wait to read it. I still need to finish reading the first two. I only got a bit through the last one.
Posted by bluesteel 2 years ago

Yeah, I meant for both sides. bsh1 and I are known for thinking that RFDs should be held to a slightly higher standard than they already are, for mod removal purposes. I just meant I want to see at some point whether I really think this final outcome was correct and whether some pretty marginal votes were left standing after moderation happened.
19 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Shadowguynick 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Cons arguments on health impacts outweighed pros argument for money. From there the rest of the debate was pretty even. Con had some good points about money and indivdual countiries but overall, pro was able to make a case for an objective negative impact in the US when compared to the US in regards to health. To be honest he kept trying to shift the debate in a somewhat unfair way to Pro.. This debate has gotten out of hand..
Vote Placed by Benshapiro 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Conduct and sources to pro since con used a single outside link for sources
Vote Placed by NoMagic 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Con tries to claim culture as subjective. Pro gets around this by citing statistics within culture that provides evidence that Europe has better culture. Con thinks low taxes are a plus. I don't think this is the case. Low taxes mean low investment within ones own nation. I've driven the autobahn, fantastic road paid for by higher taxes. U.S. decaying infrastructure because of low taxes. Low taxes aren't positive, unless you live in a selfish nation. U.S. is a selfish nation, that isn't positive. Both argued well. Pro wins some points. And I've lived in both. Europe is superior to the U.S. and it isn't close. I'm also giving Pro a slight source advantage.
Vote Placed by Blade-of-Truth 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: My RFD is done, posted in comments.
Vote Placed by Mikal 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: The other 3 pages are in the comments. Pro had more sources that were topical and had more relevance to her case. Argument analysis in the comments a few hundred pages back (1 week ago). Pro had better spelling throughout the debate. Conduct to pro due to con shifiting goal posts
Vote Placed by Zarroette 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.
Vote Placed by YYW 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Analysis of arguments is in comments. Sources to CON because he cited correctly, as can enable me to verify them. Spelling and grammar to CON because EmilyRose's failure to correctly cite is really a formatting error before it's a conduct error. I don't think she plagiarized, which is why I'm penalizing for formatting rather than something which may be more culpable.
Vote Placed by yoshidino 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Most convincing arguments goes to pro. Pro made many valid claims that shewed that Europe is indeed superior to the US. Con copped out calling many of these claims irrelevant and "oppinion." Although naturally this debate required much opinion, pro used the opinion of the majority consensus, thus justifying it, acausing these opinions to bear much relevance, which con failed to see. The debate was concerning Europe as a continent, which naturally requires statistics from many of the countries of Europe to represent the continent as a whole. Overall, pro did a fine job of providing many statistics to support her claim, and con was unable to properly debunk the many points made by pro. Sources also goes to pro. Pro used a total of 15 different valid sources, while con used only two sources. One of these two sources was Wikipedia, wich is not considered a ver reliable source because it's information can be easily changed.
Vote Placed by dtaylor971 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments. Not complete yet, but must get vote in. Don't delete this, because a huge chunk of my RFD is IN THE COMMENT SECTION
Vote Placed by Commondebator 2 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Ok, so overall this debate was done amazing by both sides. However, the arguments go to pro for some reasons. The first thing is, con failed to see how this entire debate is regarding Europe as a continent. This was pretty clear and it also stated in the resolution (as well as the title) how Europe is being identified as a continent. Furthermore, Con dropped many of Pro's claims by simply stating them as an opinion. (Con misspelled opinion leading to loss in Spelling and grammar) Pro kept making points, however con kept denying them because they were "opinions" or they were intrinsic. Con struck down the economical argument however I actually disagree with con how just because its the people's choice means an invalid argument. I mean the industry in America and the society can be a major contributor to decisions. Looking over the sources, I feel like the sources were more beneficial towards pro than of cons.