The Instigator
cody30228
Pro (for)
Winning
34 Points
The Contender
tjzimmer
Con (against)
Losing
27 Points

Even though it will never work, Communism is the best form of government

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/2/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 18,428 times Debate No: 1267
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (15)
Votes (19)

 

cody30228

Pro

Communism, is the basic sense, is perfect. It is utilitarian. It is efficient.
This how the basic communist country would run
1. Labor
Everyone works as hard as they can doing what ever they need to do to help the nation
Everyone gets paid the same and everyone gets the job done

2. Social
Everyone gets a fair wage, so everyone is rich. everyone can afford whatever they want. The needs of a family are supplied for free from the government. Money is only spent on wants. No where in a true communist society a person must give up any unalienable rights. They have the ability to speak out, but everyone is patriotic and no one finds a fault in the government. They lack ownership to property so there are no property disputes or taxes on property

3. Military
Everyone in a communist society is nationalistic, patriotic, and willing to die for their country. A certain number of people are drafted, so there are no shortages of men. Government supplies itself with enough money to have a very suitable defensive program

4. Government
A basic communist society has no real rules regarding any type of leadership
tjzimmer

Con

So what is this really about then? Communism has principles that would make it seem like a great system for all peoples. However, it is definitely not the best system because like you said, IT WILL NEVER WORK. So I am kind of confused how it is the best when it is a failure. I understand that Communism promotes the general welfare of the citizens, but thats the problem with that system. There is no incentive for citizens that have better skills to excel in this system. As we saw in the Soviet Union, corruption hits enormous peaks and it is present at the highest levels. Government run programs provided for the citizens is a good idea but that doesn't give way for there to ever be any improvements because it isn't privatized. No competition is bad for a government. In America our way of government has provided the poor welfare the same as Communism did. Yet, we have the capitalist theory that strives for success of the individual making an average joe have the chance to be a millionaire. So in no way is Communism the best form of government. Look at the Soviets, North Korea, and China. Citizens in these countries lack the fundamental rights that all of us Americans enjoy. China is finally opening its eyes and realizing that Communism is bad. They have taken a step in reducing its power by opening up to international trade. Yet, China's profits don't go to help the well being of its enormous working class because of the corruption. You have to ask yourself this question, if it is such a great system why have so many nations moved away from it? It is because when it hits its peak, it becomes oppressive to the citizens it works to protect. Communism is failure and history proves this.
Debate Round No. 1
cody30228

Pro

yes i realize that communism is a failure, it will never work. Why? because we are all human. we are selfish, greedy, and corrupt. every last one of us in some way are. what i am asking is, if we werent all those things, then would the system established by communism be better than any other system.
this is all hypothetical debate world
tjzimmer

Con

Actually I still do not think it would be best. I know you said imagine if all the bad things about human nature didn't exist it would work, but I still feel it is a garbage system. No matter how equal a society is, as time goes on people are going to want more and people will then learn to exploit each other. Even in early civilization when it was all about getting food and surviving, these nomads learned to steal and abuse the law of the lands. It is just natural. Sure it is hypothetical but since most humans are not mindless robots and long for more than just the minimum to get by it is easy to see why Communism will not work. If the playing field was all equal and everyone had nothing and they had to work together to survive, Communism would work. But, the end result of the cooperation isn't peace and prosperity for the people, it is actually cut-throat greed and corruption for power.
Debate Round No. 2
cody30228

Pro

Look, i dont know how to respond. I proposed this debate for political philosophy. I didn't want to argue this side of communism. Let's just call it a draw and try to make sure votes stay even? Because you have yet to really refute my points and I can't possible refute yours
In truth, you are right and i agree
in a hypothetical world, so far i am right and havent countered

draw?
tjzimmer

Con

Actually you refuted all your own points making mine stronger. Unfortunately, you can have a hypothetical debate about whatever and still be wrong. Communism has good principles that may work but history proves it doesn't. I still say either way it is no able to work because of the things in your opening argument you claimed are good from it military....etc, will be manipulated and corrupt causing the system to crash. It blows and I think I win because its your fault you posed such a silly, hypothetical debate....lol just kidding man we will see how it turns out.
Debate Round No. 3
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by timberwulf 7 years ago
timberwulf
This debate is a farce.

The arguement for human nature being esstentially "bad" is fraudulent, and fails to take into consideration the cohersive nature of the Capitalist system.
Posted by jacobgunter 9 years ago
jacobgunter
Theoretically, no government is the best form of government. This would only work if we go off of the premise that communism is based on, that people are truly good at heart. As James Madison said, "If men were angels, we would need no government."

Now, While absolute anarchy would never work, like communism, it has a great advantage over communism if the world was perfect. Rather then having to go through a large amount of bureaucracy and paperwork, things would just be done. If people were perfect, they would not need to be organized and commanded by an all-incompasing government, but would act on their own accord and thus be more efficient.
Posted by cody30228 9 years ago
cody30228
dont get me wrong, i fully support capitalism
Posted by alexthemoderate 9 years ago
alexthemoderate
Under Communism, wages would be used to the things that people need every day--food, fuel, supplies, and the occasional nice thing.

Once again, its a theory. Theories, as we can pull from science, are to be taken as true until disproven by science, or facts.

Communism has been proven wrong by the facts of reality.

Therefore, capitalism won! You don't need to get so worked up as if anyone who thinks that communism is, in theory, a good thing, is actually a crazy communist who is anti-corporation, anti-capitalism, and pro-totalitarianism.

I'm someone who thinks that communism is, in theory, a good thing, but realizes that its never possible and therefore, my views don't reflect it.

I'm a free-trader, I'm pro-market, I'm pro-corporations, and I don't support current social security guidelines. No attacks from me about capitalism. Sure, it has a few people it leaves behind, and I happent to think that there are plenty of market-based solutions to solve those problems. But I'm in no way an opponent of capitalism because of my belief that, if this were a perfect world, that communism would be an ideal solution and possibly a natural happening.

You can check my views--I am for some involvement of the government in the economy, such as taxes on capital gains, a form of universal health care, and welfare as a temporary worker relief/unemployment program. But I'm not anti-market.
Posted by cody30228 9 years ago
cody30228
you arent winning because you ignored the debate
i clearly pointed out teh was a philosophic debate
you choose to run a "commi never work debate"
that a different topic
thus i asked for a draw since we both missed each others arguments

if you want specifics, you ignored all my points to why communism is good, so, a technicality, you agree with me and did not negate the topic

i believe a draw is fair

and two property being an unalienable right,
Locke's idea was changed to pursuit of happiness because not all the framers of our government liked the idea of property being unalienable
and when i said property i meant land ownership
Posted by tjzimmer 9 years ago
tjzimmer
how am i not winning this debate....what points does the pro have that are worth your vote..he agrees with me basically but he thinks its a good system? I'm confused.
Posted by mjg283 9 years ago
mjg283
This is one of my big pet peeves. Communism is not good "in theory" or in fantasy worlds where people aren't behaving based on human nature. Regardless of whether we're in the fantasy or real world, Communism involves governing by stealing from one group of people to give to another:

"From each according to his abilities to each according to his needs." I don't know about you, but when growing up, I was taught that stealing was immoral and wrong.

And your fantasy world internally contradicts itself:

"No where in a true communist society a person must give up any unalienable rights."

"They lack ownership to property so there are no property disputes or taxes on property"

The right to own property is one of the most important inalienable rights one has in a free society (just ask John Locke and the Framers of the US Constitution).

Incidentally, if nobody owns any property, what are we using our "fair wages" to buy?

Much of this almost reads like one of my favorite Monty Python sketches:

"Happy Land was a wonderful place. Everyone was happy in Happy Land. And if you weren't happy, you were viciously tortured until you became happy."
Posted by alexthemoderate 9 years ago
alexthemoderate
Of course, this is just theory. I agree with the Con that the hypothetical does not really matter, EXCEPT to show us that perhaps some degree of socialization may be good for people (we have some aspects in the U.S. government).

I posit that as simply an idea, but perhaps not as something that everyone may agree with (there are a lot of limited government fans on this site, and I'm kind of with them...).
Posted by cody30228 9 years ago
cody30228
No offense, but you a debate regarding political philosophy does not need to be real. That's why it's philosophy.
Posted by alexthemoderate 9 years ago
alexthemoderate
Ok...this is an interesting thought experiment.

In theory, communism is perfect, mainly because in theory, humans do not desire material goods, do not consume at different rates, and trust each other perfectly, among other requirements for human interaction that aren't met in the real world.

In theory, I would argue that communism would actually be a natural happening. In theory, if humans were perfectly good, there would be no need for anyone to flourish more than any other. True and true.

However, we do happen to live in reality, in which communism has time and time again proven to be a poor system of government.

Republic-style government, with democratically elected officials, truly does balance a need for national secuirty, contract enforcement, and other things that both market and social democracies provide in addition to these basic services as a 'gift' to the people.

I agree with your premise in a theoretical world, but, as you seemed to point out, it would never really be able to work in the real world because of the potential for authoritarian government and social strife.
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