The Instigator
telisw37
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
KhalifV
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points

Evolution is Wrong and False. The Bible Gives Better Answers.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
KhalifV
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/26/2014 Category: Science
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,661 times Debate No: 58222
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (27)
Votes (2)

 

telisw37

Pro

No Rules.I am Pro so I will argue evolution is wrong. No need to be nice. Say and prove your case anyway you can. Good Luck.
KhalifV

Con

I accept.
I will be arguing that evolution is true and that the bible is not a reliable source for the development of organisms on Earth and that the bible is a poor source for scientific information in general.
Debate Round No. 1
telisw37

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for accepting this debate.
However it is logical that maggots did not turn into monkeys then those monkeys, became men and the human reality we have today. I say try God given common sense, but evolutionists declares, that God given common sense does not exist!
God given common sense declares that God created maggots to eat waste and monkeys were created to dwell in the trees and man was made to walk the earth and rule over the created animals. So it is to this day.
Question: Why is nothing evolving now. The famous missing link. So again I assert evolutionary THEORY IS NOT A FACT!
There are logical reasons apart from Scripture's direct testimony to reject the theory of evolution and accept creation and a Creator. I will begin with an article by Mario Seiglie.
https://www.google.com...

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Genesis 1:1

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."
Genesis 1:27

"The basic flaw of all evolutionary views is the origin of the information in living beings. It has never been shown that a coding system and semantic information could originate by itself in a material medium, and the information theorems predict that this will never be possible. A purely material origin of life is thus precluded."
Gitt, Werner

"I believe that one day the Darwinian myth will be ranked the greatest deceit in the history of science."
Lovtrup, Soren

https://www.google.com...

Here is 9 reasons evolution is false.
https://www.google.com...

By a simple internet search we learn that Darwinism is a theory and not a scientific fact....

Darwinism is a theory of biological evolution developed by Charles Darwin and others, stating that all species of organisms arise and develop through the natural selection of small, inherited variations that increase the individual's ability to compete, survive, and reproduce. Also called Darwinian theory. It originally included the broad concepts of transmutation of species or of evolution which gained general scientific acceptance when Charles Robert Darwin published On the Origin of Species, including concepts which predated Darwin's theories, but subsequently referred to specific concepts of natural selection, the Weismann barrier or in geneticsthe central dogma of molecular biology.[1] Though it usually refers strictly to biological evolution, the term has been used by creationists to refer to the origin of life, and has even been applied to concepts of cosmic evolution, both of which have no connection to Darwin's work. It is therefore considered the belief and acceptance of Darwin's, and his predecessors, work in place of other theories including divine design and extraterrestrial origins.[2][3]

The term was coined by Thomas Henry Huxley in April 1860,[4] and was used to describe evolutionary concepts in general, including earlier concepts such asSpencerism. Many of the proponents of Darwinism at that time, including Huxley, had reservations about the significance of natural selection, and Darwin himself gave credence to what was late5

While the term has remained in use amongst scientific authors when referring to modern evolutionary theory, it has increasingly been argued that it is an inappropriate term for modern evolutionary theory.[6][7] For example, Darwin was unfamiliar with the work of Gregor Mendel,[8] and as a result had only a vague and inaccurate understanding of heredity. He naturally had no inkling of yet more recent developments and, like Mendel himself, knew nothing of genetic drift for example.[9][10] In the United States, the term "Darwinism" is often used by creationistsas a pejorative term in reference to beliefs such as atheistic naturalism, but in the United Kingdom the term has no negative connotations, being freely used as a shorthand for the body of theory dealing with evolution, and in particular, evolution by natural selection.[6]

https://www.google.com...

Now I refute any attempt to discredit the bible with this.
1. The bible is about one man, the Creator (Christ The Alpha of the bible=Adam) is family Israel and their impact on the earth. Past Present and future.
2. The bible must be rightly divided in order to find truth.
3. Anyone who says the bible is false has never read it with understanding.
4. The bible speaks of three earth ages the first was when dinosaurs walked the earth. We live in the second earth age , and Christ the Omega will rule the third earth or heaven age here on earth.
5.The bible says a day with the Lord is a thousand years to man. So was the second earth age created in 6000 thousand of mans years?
If we all evolved? Explain the Jews/Israelites. A separate people God's own people. They are a witness against evolution.
6. If the bible is false? Where did Israel come from?
7.A nation and a people that has always been centered around God.
8.Where there dinosaurs on the ark? No. They were in fossil form, just like today.
9. Where there unicorns on the ark? Yes! Strongs #7214 defines unicorn in bible means wild bull.
10. How did the bible fortell that all nations will fight over Jerusalem right before the third earth age that Christ will rule?

Zechariah 12

King James Version (KJV)

12 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.

6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

So I am waiting for my opponent to give his reason on why did Jews evolve differently around God's Land.

KhalifV

Con

-Evolution
A prerequsite to debating the validity of evolution is knowing what one means by "evolution". Well in the most general since it can be used to mean change over time but in the spirit of intellectual debate let's use the technical definition, which is as follows:Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. This is all that is meant by evolution and when one puts it like that, the answer is obviously yes, evolution is true.

-Universal Genetic Code:
Every cell on Earth, from our white blood cells, to simple bacteria, to cells in the petals of flowers, are capable of reading any piece of DNA from any life form on Earth. This is quite convincing evidence for a common ancestor from which all life descended.
-Fossil Record
Birds-The evolution of birds from dinosaurs was first proposed in the late 1860s by Thomas Henry Huxley, who was a famous supporter of Darwin and his ideas. Evidence from fossils for the reptile-bird link came in 1861 with the discovery of the first nearly complete skeleton ofArchaeopteryx lithographicain Upper Jurassic limestones about 150 million years old near Solenhofen, Germany. The skeleton of Archaeopteryx is clearly dinosaurian. It has a long bony tail, three claws on each wing, and a mouth full of teeth. However, this animal had one thing never before seen in a reptile - it had feathers, including feathers on the long bony tail. Huxley based his hypothesis of the relationship of birds to dinosaurs on his detailed study of the skeleton ofArchaeopteryx.
(http://donsmaps.com...
A reconstructed Archaeopteryx.) This ancient animal seems to constitute strong evidence of the evolution of birds from dinosaurs.
-Whales
In 1994,Ambulocetus natans, whose name means "walking whale that swims," was described from middle Eocene rocks of Pakistan. This species provides fossil evidence of the origin of aquatic locomotion in whales.Ambulocetus preserves large forelimbs and hind limbs with large hands and feet, and the toes have hooves as in mesonychians.Ambulocetusis regarded as having webbing between the toes and it could walk on land as well as swim; thus, it lived both in and out of the water.
http://upload.wikimedia.org...
-Ubiquitous Genetic Similarity:
Human beings share approximately 96% of genes with chimpanzees, about 90% of genes in common with cats, 80% with cows, 75% with mice, and so on. This does not prove that we evolved from chimpanzees or cats, though, only that we shared a common ancestor in the past. And the amount of difference between our genomes corresponds to how long ago our genetic lines diverged.
Bacterial Resistances:
Bacteria colonies may only build up a resistance to antibiotics via evolution. It is vital to note that in every colony of bacteria, there is a minority of individuals that are naturally resistant to certain antibiotics. This is because of the random nature of mutations.When an antibiotic is applied, the initial innoculation will kill most bacteria, leaving behind only those few cells which happen to have the mutations necessary to resist the antibiotics. In subsequent generations, the resistant bacteria reproduce, forming a new colony where every member is resistant to the antibiotic. This is natural selection in action. The antibiotic is "selecting" for organisms which are resistant, and killing any that are not.
I think the aforementioned pieces of evidences is sufficient to substantiate evolution.
(EVOLUTION DOES NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF LIFE)

Are we still evolving?
Yes, however it is not drastic because we are no longer exposed to drastic climates that would require us to do so.
Increased Resistance:
In 2007, a group of researchers looking for signs of recent evolution discovered 1800 genesthat have only become prevalent in humans in the last 40,000 years, many of which are devoted to fighting infectious diseases like malaria. More than a dozen new genetic variants for fighting malaria are spreading rapidly among Africans. Another study found that natural selection has favored city-dwellers. Living in cities has produced a genetic variant that allows us to be more resistant to diseases like tuberculosis and leprosy.
Shrinking Brains:as they shrink, our brains are being rewired to work faster but take up less room. There's also a theory that smaller brains are an evolutionary advantage because they make us less aggressive beings, allowing us to work together and to solve problems, rather than tear each other to shreds.

Bible:Now my opponent said a lot of things about the bible, however as far as I can see, none of it regards science.
My opponent seems to be concerned with social and political causes and events. If he wishes to assert the bible is a reliable scientific document, he should make scientific claims and submit evidence.

God:Now I don't want to venture off topic however my opponent has invoked god and I would like my opponent to first substantiate the claim that a god exists before using said deity as an explanation. He seems to be putting the cart before the horse.

Theism Is Not A Good Model:Just as in Cosmology, theism is not a good biological model. The model tries to backslide in a deity where ever possible. The primary reason it is not a good model is because it could be used to explain any observable life. Any theist can say "God made it like that". Theism does not make predictions.

Genesis Is really WRONG:2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The early universe was not "dark". We know from quantum mechanics that the earliest universe was a sea of quarks, followed shortly after by a sea of free nucleons and photons. Until the era of "decoupling", about 300,000 years after the formation of the universe, the entire universe was as bright throughout as the surface of the sun is today.

The verse refers to "the face of the waters". If this verse refers to the waters on earth, such as the ocean, it is completely wrong. The early earth had no ocean. It was not until millions of years of accretion had built up the planet that liquid water began to form, both from volcanic outgassing and from the impacts of comets attracted by the gravity of the earth.

However, most Biblical scholars believe that the "waters" referred to here are those in heaven, from which rain comes. This interpretation is supported by the fact that the Genesis account later describes how these "waters" were divided from those of earth by a wall, with one portion of these divided waters forming the oceans.

But we know from science that the early universe did not have any liquid water. None at all. Not even any water molecules. In fact, for a period of several hundred thousand years, it did not have any molecules of any sort. The Genesis description of water above the "firmament" is simply wrong.

3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
This verse has the formation of light occuring only AFTER the "waters" and the earth already existed. As noted above, this is simply wrong. The entire universe was brightly lit for its first 300,000 years of existence, billions of years before the earth came into being.
And that is just the begining.

In the next round I ask my opponent to demonstrate that a god exist and
Substantiate biblical science not sociological and political conditions.

Sources:http://www.huecotanks.com...
http://mentalfloss.com...
http://www.agiweb.org...
http://evolutionfaq.com...
http://atheism.about.com...
http://www.bioinformatics.nl...



Debate Round No. 2
telisw37

Pro

I will begin by refuting my opponent's statement claiming that any cell can read the DNA of any other cell. My opponent's speaks on men's opinions as facts. And in debates one must say exactly what one means. Now I also refute your claim that evolution is about generations of human beings, making natural changes because of the environmental changes, is what evolution is generally accepted as. Evolution is about denying God created anyone or anything. Evolutionists claim from GOO THROUGH THE ZOO STANDS YOU!
Now my opponent is showing more biblical ignorance my saying God created the earth void.
The word was in Hebrew means became.
Try again. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ( This was the first earth age.)
The earth became void. Goodby dinosaurs. God started over.
Is where my opponent erred.
I also refute my opponent's claim that birds came from dead dinosaurs. He also used words like "seems to be" so that is just using fancy words to be 'TALKING LOUD BUT SAYING NOTHING'!

My opponent posted:

" Huxley based his' hypothesis' of the relationship of birds to dinosaurs on his detailed study of the skeleton ofArchaeopteryx.
(http://donsmaps.com......
A reconstructed Archaeopteryx.) This ancient animal seems to constitute strong evidence of the evolution of birds from dinosaurs.
-Whales
In 1994,Ambulocetus natans, whose name means "walking whale that swims," was described from middle Eocene rocks of Pakistan. This species provides fossil evidence of the origin of aquatic locomotion in whales.Ambulocetus preserves large forelimbs and hind limbs with large hands and feet, and the toes have hooves as in mesonychians.Ambulocetusis regarded as having webbing between the toes and it could walk on land as well as swim; thus, it lived both in and out of the water."

A walking swimming whale that lived in and out the water, then became maggots that turned to monkeys that morphed into men is just dumb. The reason we share DNA with animals is, very simply we have a common designer called God.
My opponent is making educated guesses based on a hypothesis that seems to be true. When it is smarter to trust the word of God. God destroyed the first earth age when dinosaurs walked the earth. Scientific facts are the dinosaurs disappeared at the same time quickly. They did not evolve away slowly into birds or anything else. Is one of the many reasons science and the bible agree totally.

My opponent posted:
"Now my opponent said a lot of things about the bible, however as far as I can see, none of it regards science.
My opponent seems to be concerned with social and political causes and events. If he wishes to assert the bible is a reliable scientific document, he should make scientific claims and submit evidence.

God:Now I don't want to venture off topic however my opponent has invoked god and I would like my opponent to first substantiate the claim that a god exists before using said deity as an explanation. He seems to be putting the cart before the horse"

Proof of God:
1. On the back of US currency reads IN GOD WE TRUST. Not Darwin.
in god we trust photo: In God We Trust cross.jpg
in god we trust photo: InGodWeTrust-1.jpg

2. USA is one nation under God.
one nation unde god photo: One nation under God s_c1889.gif
3. The wailing wall proves the Temple existed that King David was real who was the great great.................grandfather of Christ who proved He is God by dying on the cross.
christ on cross photo: Jesus Christ. JesusChristontheCross.jpg
wailing wall photo: The Wailing Wall kotel.jpg
wailing wall photo: Wailing Wall WailingWall-Jerusalem.jpg
4. The reason the bible is credible is it tells the future proves divine authority.



wailing wall photo: wailing wall 000_0295.jpg

5. Israel is proof of God because it was no way to predict the re-gathering of a nation lost over a thousand years earlier.
the returnof israel photo: The Western Wall, Israel westernwall.jpg
6. After only 65 years Israel is richest most powerful nation in the region. No accident God's people and land.
israel photo: Israel. pizapcom13771727717651_zpse84c0d1f.jpg
7. What do you find in a hotel room? In USA ONE NATION UNDER GOD! A free bible. Who put it there? The Gideons! Who told them to, and gave the millions of dollars to do it. God!!!!!!
bible hotel photo: Bible 32434wt1c8j2wf1.gif
8. The bible and science agree, evolutionary THEORIES ARE NOT SCIENTIFIC FACTS!

9. When God said let there be light, that was actually the speed of light. Meaning a entry way between the third dimension and the fouth. The heavens and sun, moon, stars were created later.

10. Evolution is a new idea compared to religious belief in God. And the majority of people claims that God given common sense actually exists. It is actually dumb!
evolution photo: evolution evolution_1903_wideweb__430x3281.jpg
11. If current events match prophecies in the bible, then that is real proof that God exist.
bible prophecy photo: THE FINAL EVENTS OF THE BIBLE PROPHECY THEFINALEVENTSOFTHEBIBLEPROPHECY.jpg
12. Because of the reality of God we see evidence in social, political and worid leadership. If my opponent would read the bible before speaking against it. Then he would know that God works through people, nations and kings and or presidents.
end times photo: end of times endoftimes.jpg
13. The bible says the earth is round. Also the way the Shepherd Kings found the Christ child was because they could read the zodiac. And the signs in the heavens.

Isaiah 40:22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
I assert that the people of bible times new the earth was round long before Columbus. That is how they sailed from one country to the next by reading in signs in the heavens.
14. The fact that we have a cosmos that is so detailed, random chance is impossible.

radom photo: Radom xd Fujikoangry.jpg

20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],


21 Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.


22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].


23 And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.


24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin],


25 Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it).


26 For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one,


27 And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another—men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own [d]bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing and going astray, which was [their] fitting retribution.


28 And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,


KhalifV

Con

I am pretty sure my opponent is trolling. He has offered no evidence or sophisticated argument.

Epistemic Limitation: Due to the problem of Hard Solipsism it is impossible to be certain of anything however just because I am not 100% certain does not mean my claims are not rationally justified.

Evolution is not about denying god, there are plenty of theist who believe in evolution.

I'm kinda stuck in a hard place here, my opponent has already presupposed the bibles validity thus he is unwilling to examine evidence and he does not put forth any evidence.
He is trying to use vague biblical prophecies to prove biblical science. This is an utter non-sequitur.
It also seems my opponent doesn't understand evolution at all. He keeps on asserting we came from monkeys, he has no idea what he is talking about.
Clarification On Monkeys:
Humans did not evolve from monkeys. Humans are more closely related to modern apes than to monkeys, but we didn't evolve from apes, either. Humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes, like gorillas and chimpanzees. Scientists believe this common ancestor existed
5 to 8 million years ago. Shortly thereafter, the species diverged into two separate lineages. One of these lineages ultimately evolved into gorillas and chimps, and the other evolved into early human ancestors called hominids.
Proof Of God?NO:
My opponent asserts god exists due to the following:
1.Our money says god
2. The declaration says god
3:You get a bible in a hotel room
I think he is implying we are a Christian nation but this false. There's no way any serious intellectual would take those "proofs" seriously.
Treaty Of Tripoli: Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

My opponent states "14. The fact that we have a cosmos that is so detailed, random chance is impossible. "
The apparent fine tuning is easily explained through the multiverse. In some universes you would expect to have life permitting parameters.

Common Sense: My opponent's main argument seems to be "evolution is not in accordance with common sense". WHO CARES. Evidence is more important than your common sense intuition. In quantum physics(which I'm certain you don't study) common sense intuition is almost always wrong.

Failed Biblical Prophecies: Destruction of Tyre
For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

In this block of text God states quite blatantly that Nebuchadnezzar would completely sack and destroy the city of Tyre. However, the events given in this passage never did come to pass. After a 13 year siege, Nebuchadnezzar withdrew his forces. Despite being conquered and razed by Alexander the Great 240 years later,Tyre still exists.

Nile will dry up
Yep, still there

Ezekiel 30:12 continues with a prediction that the Nile River will run dry.

I will dry up the streams of the Nile and sell the land to evil men; by the hand of foreigners I will lay waste the land and everything in it. I the LORD have spoken. (NIV)

There is no evidence that this has happened in recorded history.

Egyptians will speak the dead language of Canaan

In Isaiah 19:18 Isaiah says Egyptians will learn the tongue of Canaanites

Isaiah 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

Not only has the Canaanite language never been spoken by Egyptians, but it is now an extinct language. There is the very unlikely possibility Isaiah was referring to Hebrew, which is technically a Canaanite language. However, Hebrew was also never adopted by the Egyptians. And according to the context of this passage, Isaiah is specifically referring to Pagan Egypt, which ceased to exist in the 4th century. (See Above) So even if Egyptians started speaking Hebrew at this very moment, it would still be an inaccurate prediction. Also, it's worth noting that Isaiah believes the Egyptians will convert to Mosaic Judaism (a dead religion) and start offering sacrifices to the LORD shortly after this incident, (Isaiah 19:21) a practice no longer done by Jews since the Temple was destroyed and priesthood lost.

Israel will live in peace with its neighbors

A Merkava vineyard planter

Ezekiel 28:24-26 predicts that Israel will live in peace with its neighbors:

No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD. This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God. (NIV)

A consistent aspect of history is that Israel has never gotten along with its neighbors. (Or, if you prefer, that its neighbors have never gotten along with it.) There's still hope that Israel and the neighbourhood will be peaceful one day, but it requires everyone in the region to stop "inflicting punishment" on each other.

My opponent has said nothing convincing. Once again I ask for real science claims and real scientific evidence, not vague prophecy.
I'm sure next round he will question the multiverse and quantum physics, so I will adress those and other ill-conceived objections.

Sources: http://www.pbs.org...
http://www.iep.utm.edu...
http://rationalwiki.org...



Debate Round No. 3
telisw37

Pro

Trolling???????????
Theistic Evolution???????????

Agreed! !!!!!! The truth of God is simple and not sophisticated.
AGAIN TALKING LOUD BUT SAYING NOTHING.
Again my opponent babbled. Christ said not one stone will be left on top of another. Well the wailing wall has stones still stacked on top of one another. So God given common sense says that prophecy is yet future.
Luke 21:6
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

My opponent posted:
'I am pretty sure my opponent is trolling. He has offered no evidence or sophisticated argument.
Epistemic Limitation: Due to the problem of Hard Solipsism it is impossible to be certain of anything however just because I am not 100% certain does not mean my claims are not rationally justified.
(IS THAT SOPHISTICATED FOR SAYING I DO NOT KNOW WHAT I'M TAKING ABOUT, I AM JUST GUESSING??????)
Evolution is not about denying god, there are plenty of theist who believe in evolution.
(Talk about oxymoron? ?????????? Some people are so smart they are stupid.)
I'm kinda stuck in a hard place here, my opponent has already presupposed the bibles validity thus he is unwilling to examine evidence and he does not put forth any evidence.
He is trying to use vague biblical prophecies to prove biblical science. This is an utter non-sequitur.
It also seems my opponent doesn't understand evolution at all. He keeps on asserting we came from monkeys, he has no idea what he is talking about.
Clarification On Monkeys:
Humans did not evolve from monkeys. Humans are more closely related to modern apes than to monkeys, but we didn't evolve from apes, either. Humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes, like gorillas and chimpanzees. Scientists believe this common ancestor
5 to 8 million years ago. Shortly thereafter, the species diverged into two separate lineages. One of these lineages ultimately evolved into gorillas and chimps, and the other evolved into early human ancestors called hominids."
My opponent speaks of what must have happened millions of years ago. He is just guessing and was not there millions of years ago, but God was there and it is much easier to trust someone who was actually there. My opponent is speaking about millions of years ago when he is wrong about the last few thousand years of recorded history.
Obama Says No Longer A Christian Nation -
I say my opponent is sottish or blind!
I refute your lying statement that the Nile River is stll there just fine. When in fact the water that was in the Nile River is now in a dam making power. Duh!
Ezekiel 30:12

And I will make the rivers dry, and sell the land into the hand of the wicked: and I will make the land waste, and all that is therein, by the hand of strangers: I the LORD have spoken it.

Ethiopia’s GERD to begin producing electricity next year


Basil El-Dabh / March 22, 2014 / 9 Comments / 4602 Views






God given common sense say's man did not come from apes or monkeys. But my opponent denies this is something like common sense exist. Facts are for the last 4000 years of recorded history apes are still apes and not evolving into anything but more apes...
My opponent still failed to explain what happened to the dinosaur. That entire species was wiped out at one time. Destroyed, and was buried in the ground, those bones and fossils are still there. Not evolving into birds, which is just silly and dumb.
Now again my opponent is showing more biblical ignorance by babbling nonsense about Tyre.
Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon fulfilled the 70 year captivity written of by Isaiah. Common sense knows Babylon was taken by Cyrus and he let Israel go home to rebuild the temple and the walls of Jerusalem. The battle and seige my opponent misquoted that created the wailing wall we have today was done under Rome not during the time of Nebuchadrezzar, my opponent is over 400 years off track.
I suggest that my opponent read Ezra and Nehemiah before babbling about the bible.
Ezra 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the Lord God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.

4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.

5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem.

I say babble on!
The facts about Israel are not vague for those with eyes to see or those with GOD GIVEN COMMON SENSE!
KhalifV

Con

I'm sure most scientifically literate individuals are feeling my frustration.
My opponent keeps hurling the bible verses at me, that have ZERO things to do with science.
The motion regards the nature of biological development of organisms. He has just said evolution is stupid and the bible is right without presenting ANY SCIENTIFIC EVIDENC.

On Obama's Statement: I find it crazy that my opponent doesn't even understand his own evidence. Obama DOES NOT MEAN WE WERE FUNCTIONALLY CHRISTIAN.He is referring to the religious orientation of the population. We have always operated in a secular manner. He is saying the religious orientation of the American population is more diverse now. Once again refer back to the Treaty Of Tripoli.

More On Epistemology: My opponent states"IS THAT SOPHISTICATED FOR SAYING I DO NOT KNOW WHAT I'M TAKING ABOUT, I AM JUST GUESSING??????)" . It depends on what you mean by "know", if by know you mean 100% certain then no. I do not claim to be 100% certain, however I am claiming to be rationally and reasonably justified in my belief of evolution. I believe I have justified my belief through evidence and reason. A further implication is that my opponent can't be absolutely certain of anything he has said either. Once again I am NOT "just guessing", I am forming a rational and coherent argument from evidence.
On Common Sense: my opponent keeps on using the phrase "god given common sense", without demonstrating any gods exist but that's a different story. Now what is common sense "the ability to think and behave in a reasonable way and to make good decisions". All common sense is derived from experience. Neither my opponent or myself have experienced the billion year evolutionary progression of organisms. We are the result of it but we have not experienced it. Consequently common sense does not apply here. The best we can do is look at the evidence and generate rational conclusions.

He is using non-science to argue science.
Once again this is a science debate, my opponent is in some debate but he is no longer engaged in this one.
Debate Round No. 4
telisw37

Pro

I suggest my opponent read the title of a debate before accepting. I refute your false statement that that the bible has ZERO to do with science. Not God's fault you are confused.
My opponent posted:
"My opponent keeps hurling the bible verses at me, that have ZERO things to do with science.
The motion regards the nature of biological development of organisms. He has just said evolution is stupid and the bible is right without presenting ANY SCIENTIFIC EVIDENC. "

I motion that the bible is correct and my opponent is still guessing, and now seeking pity for his lack of sound scientific answers. You error more because you say humanity is the result biological development of organisms, when God created the heavens and the earth. He also created the people and animals as they are today. Evolution is a meger attempt to Ease God Out = EGO.

If the bible is false, how can a book of fairy tales, give literate individuals feelings of frustration?

My opponent say's that a brick wall standing in the Holy of Holies in not scientific proof. The bible say's Satan deceives the whole world. And many have received student loans to be deceived. Evolution is as big of con game as religion. Yet he is totally ignorant of the first earth age of the bible.

Revelation 1:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is,(NOW) and which was,(THE FIRST EARTH AGE) and which is to come;(CHRIST'S 1000 YEARS RULING THE EARTH) and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Yes the bible is not a religious book, but a book of your reality.

Next I will correct your other false statements about Israel living at peace with their Islamic Nations next door. These prophecies happen when Christ returns to earth. NOT YET! Along with the Islaimc nations serving the Lord. And the 5 cities in Egypt. Along with the wailing wall falling down. I assert that the only bible failure is my opponent's own personal understanding.

Next my opponent speak for the President: Explaining what he actually said into a lie. Becuse you clearly said that USA was not founded on Christianity (Ten Commandments). So I proved you wrong. You are lying or babbling by saying: " We have always operated in a secular manner. He is saying the religious orientation of the American population is more diverse now. Once again refer back to the Treaty Of Tripoli." Can you remember when in court when a person place their hand on the bible before taking the witness stand. Or why does the president place his hand on a bible when taking office? Or why did we have to stop saying a plege of alliance to a flag?

My opponent was supposed teach me Quantum Physics in this round, maybe he will enlighten us as he closes.

quantum physics photo: what the bllep do we know what-the-bleep-do-we-know-poster-0.jpg

My opponnet wants proof of God given common sense. Well read a bible and understand who God is.

Hebrews 11:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.



Now I refute your false statement about using non-science to argue science. Because the bible say's God is eternal and dinosaurs where in the first earth age. Job and Noah spoke of them. Ignorant people assume they were still walking around. Again not my fault you do not understand the bible you babble against.

I assert to the voter that you did not disprove the bible at all. You actually proved it correct with your lack of sound logical answers.

You also asserted that the city of Tyre was still there. That is false. Google earth proves that the mighty island is gone. However the remains of Tyre simple moved to the mainland, to await the judgement of Almighty God. Yes that is also written.

Ruins of the Ancient Phoenician Tyre Aqueduct

Foreign Attacks on Tyre, Lebanon: Phoenician City of Tyre was a Tempting Target for Foreign Armies

Vote Pro!

KhalifV

Con

Once again the motion regards the biological development of organisms NOT any other science or political notion or nation state or anything like that. I believe I have demonstrated the coherence and rationality of evolution. My opponent merely got American domestic policy wrong and hurled bible verses at me.
My opponent requested I speak on quantum physics and I shall now do so and I will also talk about cosmology.

On Quantum Physics and Cosmology:
Atheists are often mocked by theists for thinking the universe didn't need to have a creator and I shall now address that point.
self Contained Models Of The Universe:
-The Oscillating Universe
This is a self-contained model in which the universe evolves from a big bang, then expands and expands and then collapses upon it's self and then re-expands. This model is perfectly self-contained and no god is needed.

-Hartle Hawking
A boundless self contained universe model in which a creator is unneeded.


QET:-
Any universe that is described by quantum mechanics with non-zero energy and a time independent Hamiltonian is eternal in both arrows of time.
The point isn't that any of these are the right model, rather that there are plausible self contained models.
Christianity/ Theism Is A Poor Cosmological Model:
Theistic Cosmology basically states god created the universe. This is not a good cosmological because it is excessive and it not testable. It also makes no predictions and this is because there is an infinite degree of flexibilty. Any theist could just say "god made the universe that way".
Theism's series is as follows: X(god) --> X -->Y (universe).
A much more simple and rational series is: X(universe)-->X. (assuming there is a cause).
On Why Causal Arguments Are Not Good:
KCA(first cause): This is a terribly presumptuous argument.
It presumes:
1. Everything has a cause
2. The universe has a cause
3. The universe has a transcendent cause
Axiom 1 is false. In quantum physics particles come in and out of existence with no cause.
Axiom 2 might be true. I will elaborate on axiom two in my discussion of plausible cosmological models.
Axiom 3 is so absurd that it ISN'T EVEN FALSE. One could never know if the universe has the transcendent cause; it isn't even testable.
This violates Occam's razor.
If it is true everything has a cause and the universe has a cause, then why can' the universe be the cause of its self.
Saying the universe has a transcendent cause raises unneeded questions that CAN'T EVER BE ANSWERED.
Axiom 3 does not follow from 1 and 2.
Casmir Effect And Virtual Particles:
Virtual particles pop in and out of existence.These virtual particles often appear in pairs that nearly-instantaneously cancel themselves out. However, before they vanish, they can have very real effects on their surroundings. For instance, photons—packets of light—can pop in and out of a vacuum. When two mirrors are placed facing each other in a vacuum, more virtual photons can exist around the outside of the mirrors than between them, generating a seemingly mysterious force that pushes the mirrors together.The speed of light in a vacuum is constant, according to Einstein's theory of relativity, but its speed passing through any given material depends on a property of that substance known as its index of refraction. By varying a material's index of refraction, researchers can influence the speed at which both real and virtual photons travel within it.
If a mirror's thickness changes fast enough, virtual photons reflecting off it can receive enough energy from the bounce to turn into real photons.
Essentially something can come from nothing.
Conclusion: Refer back to the motion. I have offered plenty of evidence for evolution and none of it was refuted.
My opponent asserted god without demonstrating such a being exist. He kinda said we all know god exists. I beg to differ.
Most of my opponent's argument came from vague prophecy and politcal and sociological condition/events.
Once again he was in some debate but it was not this one.

http://www.scientificamerican.com...
http://www.scientificamerican.com...


Debate Round No. 5
27 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by GeminiContractor 2 years ago
GeminiContractor
@KhalifV
It seems pointless to try to reason with them.
They seem to be trolling or ignoring.
Maybe both.
Posted by telisw37 2 years ago
telisw37
Theistic Evolution?????????? Duh! A oxymoron! What an idiot!
Posted by KhalifV 2 years ago
KhalifV
it is obvious you know nothing about science. Once again there are a lot of theistic evolutionist. Jewish people are no more proof for God than Hindu's are evidence for Brahma. The reason why he can't win a debate like this and you can't win a debate like this is because you and him know zero biology. Furthermore, I'm not even sure you guys have sufficiently studied theology. You're god can't even logically exist.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
The Jewish people is empiracle evidence of God's promises being fulfilled. There are billions of empiracle evidences of God. People generally prefer darkness over light because their deeds are evil.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
It is possible for an atheistic evolutionist to come to realization that God created all things and Jesus is God who is the only Saviour and the only hope of mankind, but it does not happen often.....the percentage of them who wake up and get saved is low. I believe most evolutionists and atheists have hardened their hearts agaisnt God to the point God has given up on them and they will be used of God for one thing or another, but mostly for bad examples.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
You will always lose a debate like this. Evolutionists will not listen to reason, and they will vote in support of each other.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
The city of Tyre (Tyrus) was a thriving Phoenician city in ancient times, a source of economic abundance and trading. God pronounced judgment upon the city of Tyre. The surviving inhabitants after Babylon's invasion moved all their possessions and families to a little isle just off of Tyre. They thought they'd be safe on their little island.

But 250 years after Babylon destroyed Tyre, Alexander the Great of Greece was determined to conquer that little island. So what Alexander the Great did was scrape the dust of Tyrus (just as God prophesied in Ezekiel 26:3-5), using the dust to build a causeway (a road that is raised above water or marshland or sand) reaching out to that little island where the remnant of Tyrus thought they were safe. Alexander the Great totally annihilated that little island and left it desolate just as God had foretold in prophecy. Right down to the last letter, God's Word has been fulfilled.

History documents that Tyre was destroyed by her enemies, leaving the city a wasteland...
Today, fisherman cast their nets around Tyrus, just as God prophesied. That ought to be exciting to you my friend. I mean, if you get on a plane and fly to Tyrus today, you see fishermen casting their nets in Tyrus. It's a desolate area. The little island is desolate. God left Tyre desolate, just as the Bible says in Ezekiel 26:3-5).

Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon was the first of the nations to come against Tyre. Alexander's forces were put together from a coalition of Greek city-states. Each of these was an independent entity and acted as a nation unto itself. Alexander's father, Philip II, unified (by military force) these city-states and the regions of Thrace, Macedonia, and Greece proper under his rule - giving Alexander the unified front he needed to go forth and conquer.

Nevertheless, this was a coalition composed of many nations - and thus fulfills the prophecy.

A Skeptic once objected to this: "They were COALESCED into ONE NATION" - so the proph
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Finally Telisw37, this is what it would likely be like here on Earth if Heaven really existed.
The place would be totally Weird!
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
Posted by escape3 2 years ago
escape3
The bible, like any book of religion, does not provide empirical evidence. What it can provide is for some people to believe they speak and know the mind of a god. This can empower these people to castigate and subjugate those around them. The result can be groups of people who want to harm or even kill others. They can even imagine them burning forever in a fire.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Phoenix61397 2 years ago
Phoenix61397
telisw37KhalifVTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Using the Bible wasn't a problem for me. It was the way pro used the Bible that completely baffled me. He used random historical passages and the fact that the Bible is in hotel rooms to prove evolution false. He also used few other sources to prove his assertions were true. Fallacies galore were used in his argument. Although con's argument wasn't perfect, it far outweighed that of pro. Also, I'd like to add that I am Christian and believe in evolution.
Vote Placed by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
telisw37KhalifVTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro started straight away serving up fallacy soup, False Analogy Fallacy (maggots to apes to man) something Evolution does not ever claim. False dichotomy fallacy ( Evolution or God) when most Christians actually are evolutionists. Con caught Pro out on these fallacies, not so much in the terms I used, but Con exposed Pro's non-sequitur use of fuzzy, non-specific scripture to pretend them to be answers of better clarity than science: Pro could not support his Burden Of Proof. Pro's sources are also full of fallacies, such as the claim that Evolutionists are trying to deny a creator, Con's sources destroy this notion. Most Evolutionists are currently theists, they believe Evolution is the way their creator does the creating.