Evolution is more probable than Intelligent Design
| Started: | 5/6/2012 | Category: | Science |
| Updated: | 1 year ago | Status: | Post Voting Period |
| Viewed: | 2,640 times | Debate No: | 23422 |
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For this debate, I am accepting "Only a member who is ranked as good as or better than me" because I want a good science oriented debate. Resolution: The Theory of Evolution is more probable than Intelligent Design
Clarification What do I mean by the above resolution? What I mean is that the Theory of Evolution has better scientific support via evidence than creationism does. This debate will analyze the evidence for evolution and creationism and you (the voters) will determine which has the stronger support. Definition Please no semantics. These are the definitions that I will be talking about in the debate:
Rules and clarifications
1-4. For definitions, please see my previous debate on a similar topic http://www.debate.org......;
I accept, but I would like a point of clarification. Pro must give scientific evidence that life arose via natural means of evolution, correct? |
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I'm sorry it took a while. Lots of information to cover. Please view my opening argument on http://tinyurl.com...;(note, still under construction; notification in comments when finished).
Hello, I wish to thank my partner for accepting this debate and I wish you the very best of luck. I PART 1: A CASE FOR MICROEVOLUTION We have defined microevolution as the change in the alleles of a species over a period of time. There are several proofs for microevolution that I want to prove in this section of the debate. However, before I dive into the proofs, I wish to explain what microevolution is and how it is done. A. HOW MICROEVOLUTION IS DETECTED First, take a look at the image below. This is an example of microevolution. imagine that we are studying two groups of beetles that are the same species and determine that 80% of these are green coloration and 20% of them are brown coloration. In the following year, you repeat the procedure and find the new ratio of 60:40. This is microevolution. The frequency of the alleles changed and so we determine the change is microevolution.# This is how microevolution is detected. B. MECHANISMS OF MICROEVOLUTION Now that we know how microevolution is detected and what it is, let’s find out how it actually works. Microevolutionary changes happen via mutation, migration, genetic drift, and natural selection. Microevolution via Mutation Let's say that we have a beetle population that has a green color configuration; however, a mutation occurs that causes the green to become brown. The demo of this is below: image courtesy of Berkeley University This is microevolution as it is a change in the allele pool of the population over a period of time. Migration Migration plays a key role in microevolution. Let’s say that the above beetles with brown genes immigrated from another population. We can then say that microevolution is at play. Let’s look at an image demo Image ibid Again, we see the alleles increase in the frequency of brown genes. By definition, this is a change in the alleles of a gene pool of a population; hence, by definition, this is microevolution. Natural Selection What if the beetles with brown genes were stronger and more able to adapt than the green beetles? Then the brown beetles will be able to reproduce and survive off and the brown genes will move into the next generation. As Charles Darwin puts it in the “Origin of the Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life”: “It is not the strongest of species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives...it is the one that is most adaptable to change.” So, let’s introduce a predator in the equation. What will happen if the brown beetles are able to hide themselves better via camouflage? You guessed it, the green beetles will be eaten because the predators eat the more easily seen beetles lacking the brown gene which results in an increase in brown gene frequency. Image courtesy of Berkeley University. C. EXAMPLES OF MICROEVOLUTION Now that we know how microevolution works and how one detects microevolution, this section deals with certain types of examples of microevolution. I do not know of any creationist that rejects microevolution for the evidence for microevolution is very strong. Bacterial Resistance Because microevolution is a fact, we often have to change the medicine as it becomes ineffective. There are many examples of resistance to substances such as pesticides, weeds, herbicides, and medicines - all of which is the case is micro evolution via natural selection. A photographic example is this: image courtesy of Berkeley University PBS notes:# “Whenever antibiotics wage war on microorganisms, a few of the enemy are able to survive the drug because microbes are always mutating, some random mutations will eventually protect against the drug. Antibiotics used only when needed and as directed usually overwhelm the bugs. Too much antibiotic use selects the more resistant mutants. When patients cut short of the full course of the drug, the resistant strains have a chance to multiply and spread.” Although creationists have attempted to refute the above evidence# they completely miss the point and haven’t truly responded to the question at hand. Moreover, bacterial resistance shows an example of how natural selection works to select the bacterium that is resistant to the medication over those that are not. Darwin’s Finches Darwin observed the finches, a type of bird on the galapagos island which shows natural selection at work. Here is a good diagram of how it works:# Darwin’s Finches are an example of the way in which species’ gene pool adapt in order for long term survival.
I'd again like to thank my opponent for framing this debate, as well as explaining for everyone evolution via natural selection. While I am not arguing populations do change over time via natural selection, I would like to point out this fact is a voter for Con. First let's take a look at the resolution. It states evolution is more likely than divine creation. This resolution is obviously talking about macro-evolution, as the presence of microevolution does not disprove divine creation. Macroevolution is the idea that life arose naturally, without divine intervention. My first contention. There is no evidence of life arising from non-living matter. All evidence points towards the fact that in nature, life must arise from more life. Because a divine creation is outside the "natural world", this fact of nature does not apply. My second contention. Natural selection is the removal or variation and biodiversity. We can see this in Pro's beetle example. We have a population of green and brown beetles. The green beetles are removed from the population because they are eaten at a faster rate. Eventually we reach a population of only brown beetles. We see through this example, provided by Pro might I add, that the variation in color is reduced by 50% through natural selection. We must then conclude that a growing level of diversity is not possible via natural selection. This brings me to my third contention. My third contention. Natural selection requires genetic variation. http://www.globalchange.umich.edu... You'll see in this link that variation is the number one requirement for natural selection. Natural selection cannot occur without variation. Thus we know natural selection cannot happen in a population that arose from one organism, ie natural origin. This evidence shows that variable population with high levels of biodiversity, such as a divine creation, is required for a population to undergo natural selection. |
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Thank you for your reply. My partner has conceded microevolution. Therefore, once I finish rebuttals, I may go into macroevolution.
Con's First Contention This is a strawman argument. Evolution does not explain how life got on earth; rather it explains the diversity of life on earth. [1] Con's second contention. Wrong understanding of natural selection. Rather, natural selection is the process by which organisms in a population that are best adapted to the environment increase in frequency relative to less well-adapted forms, over a number of generations. Consequently, through time species develop characteristics that make them increasingly well-adapted to their environment. There are four conditions neccessary for NS to occur:
Con states that it is impossible for natural selection to account for variations in species. This is wrong. Let's say that the green beetle migrates and is better adapted than the brown beetle in that environment. Consequently, they will each converge to make a variation within their species. Within time, specietation may occur. Con's third contention. Wrong. Mutations do occur in organizms that reproduce asexually such as bacteria.[2] S. E. Lurias and M. Delebrock from the Indiana University, Bloomingion, Indiana note: [2] When a pure bacterial culture is. attacked by a bacterial virus, the cul- CONCLUSION My partner begins by straw-manning the ToE and Natural selection; he also is wrong in all 3 contentions. Thank you. References 1. http://www.expelledexposed.com...; 2. http://www.genetics.org...;
A quick road map. Before jumping into my argument. First I would like to address my opponents argument as a whole, then address each contention. I will also give evidence for ID. I would like to point out that Pro's argument is a moving target, which is poor conduct and a sign of a flawed argument. 1. The resolution is Intelligent Design vs. Evolution. If life arose via Intelligent Design, Evolution can still happen. But if life arose via Evolution, Intelligent Design cannot be true. Because the resolution is ID vs. Evolution, we must assume a scenario in which the two are conflicting. Thus in the context of the resolution this debate is about the origin of life. Pro now states it is not, thus his argument is a moving target. 2. I asked for clarification in my opening statement, specifically saying , "Pro must give scientific evidence that life arose via natural means of evolution" Clarification was never given, also poor conduct. Because my statement was never corrected, I was left to assume it was correct. Pro stated two rounds later that "Evolution does not explain how life got on earth" This is a blatant and obvious moving target. Unfortunately Pro has given no evidence for the origin of life via Evolution, so he has already lost the debate. At any rate, I will also show that his new argument about the diversity of life is incorrect. 1.Pro states "Con states that it is impossible for natural selection to account for variations in species. This is wrong. Let's say that the green beetle migrates and is better adapted than the brown beetle in that environment. Consequently, they will each converge to make a variation within their species. Within time, specietation may occur." Unfortunately, no variation is created. At the beginning of the scenario, we have both green and brown beetles. At the end of the scenario, we still have green and brown beetles. The amount of diversity has not changed. I'm afraid Pro is confusing diversity with some other term. 2. I already demonstrated in round two that variation is required for natural selection. Here is a refresher of my source which states variation is the first pre-requisite for natural selection. http://www.globalchange.umich.edu... If variation (diversity), is required for natural selection, it must exist before natural selection can occur. If variation exists before evolution, evolution CANNOT be responsible for variation. I think we can plainly see life cannot arise by natural means. Therefore we must conclude life must arise from super-natural means. We also know order cannot arise from random naturally. Therefore such exquisite order exhibited in nature must be a product of intelligent design. So in conclusion, evolution requires diversity and therefore cannot be responsible for diversity. Also, Pro's argument is a huge moving target. Thus the logical vote is for Con. |
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Once again, thank you for your swift reply. I apologize for the delayed response and wish you the best of luck. CON'S FIRST CONTENTION Please forgive me, but I was not sure what you were arguing when I typed up the argument in the previous round. This is a good question, how did life arose by means of evolution? Well, it didn't. The fact is evolution explains the diversity of life. So, how did life arose on earth? There is another theory to explain that which I will explain. ABIOGENESIS What are amino acids? Amino acids are the building blocks of life. Without the amino acids, life as we know it couldn't have arrived. How are amino acids made? There is evidence that amino acids, which are the building blocks of life, can be produced via natural selection and by nature. How? Well, in the 1950's Stanely Miller and urey did an experiment to see what would have happened with amino acids in the early blocks of life on earth. What he did was, Miller took molecules which were believed to represent the major components of the early Earth's atompshere and put them into a closed system. The test confirmed that organic compounds can evolve from inorganic compounds. Moreover, it also produced amino acids, the building blocks of life. [1] [2] How likely is abiogenesis? In his debate, RoyLantham notes: Forty of the top scientists studying abiogenesis have collaborated on a book, Origins, Abiogenesis and the Search for Life in the Universe, Michael Russell, et al.. They conclude that abiogenesis is not merely likely, but inevitable, “Be it on Earth or some other world, life had to begin via processes known as abiogenesis Obviously, there must have been an evolutionary progression beginning with simple chemical compounds to proto-life, then to DNA-equipped life capable of replicating itself. As detailed in this text, those prebiological evolutionary steps may have taken place in submarine alkaline hydrothermal vents and required various chemical interactions and divisions involving amino acids, polyphosphate-peptide synergy, the creating of biosynthetic pathways and the emergence of sparse metabolic network, and the assembly of pre-genetic information by primordial cells, with some championing compartmentalizaton, others, vesicles, and all this leading to an RNA world in which viruses and retroviruses played an important part. The origin of life and evolution of prokaryotes was not a matter of chance, but deterministic, probable and necessary and that these bioenergetic principles are likely to apply throughout the universe …” http://www.amazon.com...;[3] "Unfortunately, Pro has given no evidence for the origin of life via evolution, so he has already lost the debate." Once more, I have given it above. Moreover, evolution=/=the origin of life. What you are doing is shifting the BoP and giving me a false burden. Therefore, you have lost the debate already. CON'S SECOND POINT Con keeps saying that variation is needed for natural selection. I have already given how variation can occur natural via mutations. So, how do mutations work in asexual reproductions [4]? Second, the definition for Natural Selection is the non-random process by which biological traits become either more or less common in a opulation as the function of different reproduction of their bearers. CON'S FINAL POINT This has been dropped. Conclusion _________________________ Footnotes 1. For more on the experiment, see http://www.chem.duke.edu...; 2. See also http://en.wikipedia.org... 3. See the debate on Abiogenesis: http://www.debate.org...; 4. Most of the early life on Earth reproduced asexually. Therefore, asexual reproduction is relavent in this situation.
Pro states, "The fact is evolution explains the diversity of life." This is a circular cause and consequence fallacy, where the consequence of the phenomenon is claimed to be its root cause. Pro states in round 3 that one of the condition required for natural selection is, "Organisms vary in their characteristics, even within a species". Because Pro himself accepts this statement, it flows to Con. Pro also states that because we can create amino acids, therefore we can create life. This is a hasty generalization. a)amino acids are not living matter. b)we have never observe the creation of life from non-living matter If it's never been observed and cannot be replicated then it cannot be considered scientific evidence. A vote for Con. Pro failed his burden of properly framing a debate clarifying terms properly when asked to do so(a dropped point). A voter for Con Pro's argument is a moving target (a dropped argument), which is also a voter for Con. I urge a strong Con vote. |
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CLOSING STATEMENTS My partner has failed to meet his BoP to prove intellegent design. He hasn't given an iota of evidence in support for his proposition and has botched what evolution actually states versus what he thinks it states. As for my partner's argument that we have observed no cases of life from non life: Organic molecules
http://users.rcn.com... Amino acids are the building blocks of life. Likewise, to argue that "we don't know how life got here therefore god" is an appeal to ignorance - or as I like to call it - the God of the gaps. VOTE PRO AS MY PARNTER HAS GIVEN NO EVIDENCE FOR HIS POSSITION
First I would like to address the BOP statement made by Pro. Unless otherwise specified BOP lies on Pro. If Pro wishes to share BOP or place it on CON, he/she should have specified from the beginning. This is once again poor conduct by Pro for not properly framing the debate. I hate to bring this up in the conclusion, but it is in response to a point of his final argument. Pro failed to show evidence that life has been created from non-living matter. Pro failed to show that show how natural selection creates variation. This point was dropped in the conclusion and has been accepted by Pro. Pro also failed to address the circular cause and consequence fallacy. Pro's argument is a moving target. Since this point was dropped it has been accepted by Pro. Pro failed his burden to properly frame the debate. This point was dropped and has been accepted by Pro. The resolution states that evolution is more likely than intelligent design. BOP lies on Pro who failed to show any evidence that evolution is more likely than intelligent design. His argument had no solvency and he dropped all but one point. Therefore Pro has lost the debate. |
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| Microsuck | fishinbub | Tied | ||
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| Agreed with before the debate: | - | ![]() | - | 0 points |
| Agreed with after the debate: | - | ![]() | - | 0 points |
| Who had better conduct: | - | - | ![]() | 1 point |
| Had better spelling and grammar: | - | - | ![]() | 1 point |
| Made more convincing arguments: | - | ![]() | - | 3 points |
| Used the most reliable sources: | - | - | ![]() | 2 points |
| Total points awarded: | 0 | 3 |
| Microsuck | fishinbub | Tied | ||
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| Agreed with before the debate: | ![]() | - | - | 0 points |
| Agreed with after the debate: | ![]() | - | - | 0 points |
| Who had better conduct: | - | - | ![]() | 1 point |
| Had better spelling and grammar: | - | ![]() | - | 1 point |
| Made more convincing arguments: | ![]() | - | - | 3 points |
| Used the most reliable sources: | ![]() | - | - | 2 points |
| Total points awarded: | 5 | 1 |
| Microsuck | fishinbub | Tied | ||
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| Agreed with before the debate: | ![]() | - | - | 0 points |
| Agreed with after the debate: | ![]() | - | - | 0 points |
| Who had better conduct: | - | - | ![]() | 1 point |
| Had better spelling and grammar: | - | - | ![]() | 1 point |
| Made more convincing arguments: | ![]() | - | - | 3 points |
| Used the most reliable sources: | - | - | ![]() | 2 points |
| Total points awarded: | 3 | 0 |
| Microsuck | fishinbub | Tied | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Agreed with before the debate: | - | - | ![]() | 0 points |
| Agreed with after the debate: | - | - | ![]() | 0 points |
| Who had better conduct: | - | - | ![]() | 1 point |
| Had better spelling and grammar: | - | - | ![]() | 1 point |
| Made more convincing arguments: | ![]() | - | - | 3 points |
| Used the most reliable sources: | - | - | ![]() | 2 points |
| Total points awarded: | 3 | 0 |

















Micro, ask GenCreation if he'll take this debate.
There is one species of fish which one can live in river and sea on both side.
As usal, fishes never live both side because the density of saltiness is one of important environment they can survive.
There is never possibility of probable expections or explanation from evolutionists because this species would die when diving into the sea from river or river to sea.
It's not about adaption. it's only possible to say that this fish is born with special system making this one able to live both side.
and this is great evidence to say the intelligent design. maybe this evidence designates the existence of God I think.
Of course, that leaves room for semantics from the opposing position, "That's not enough evidence!" or 'That evidence doesn't convince me." or "How does one know what is enough evidence to determien if macro-evolution occured."
It is highly probable that Macro-evolution has occurred.
That would allow you and the opposition to focus on a single subject, rather than diluting it with variable interpretations of evolution. It would also force the burden on the opposition to reason why it's not highly probable. At no point, however, would this resolution demand an alternative, which means, the debate stays focused on evolution alone.
It also allows the debate to be accepted by an atheist who disagrees with the Darwinian paradigm. I'd prefer this because it prevents the ad hominem:" You believe in magical Gods, so what good is your word?" attack.