The Instigator
Luteraar
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
acrotun24521
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Evolution is true.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/9/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 729 times Debate No: 34632
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (0)

 

Luteraar

Pro

There is a lot of evidence for evolution:
1. DNA exists and you get yours from your parents.
2. Mutations occur.
3. When an individual has a mutation that is beneficial for surviving in its current environment ( like giraffes having slightly longer necks so they can always reach for leaves that haven't been eaten by others.) the individual has a bigger chance to survive.
4. If you have a bigger chance to survive, you are more likely to have children.
5. Some of those children will inherit the beneficial mutation.
6. They will also have a bigger chance to survive and have children.
7. This will cause the population of individuals with the benefit ( longer neck ) to grow.
8. If this keeps happening with a lot of different kinds of mutations the species will eventually be totally different from the initial species, maybe so different they aren't able to have children with each other, what makes them a different species.

So basically: If you believe in DNA, DNA-transfer and mutation, there is no other way than evolution being true.

And to prove that two species can have a common ancestor:
If to groups of the same species get separated and live in a different environment they will not have the same mutations and different kinds of mutations will be naturally "selected".
acrotun24521

Con

Hello! this is the first debate I accepted, so I might not be really good at this, but here goes!

My opponent has explained that evolution is based on mutations and how it works. However, he has never told us how it proves evolution.

I'll refute each claim one by one.

"1. DNA exists and you get yours from your parents."
Not proof of evolution, but DNA sure is important in evolution if it were true.

"2. Mutations occur."
Yes, but beneficial mutations are not that common. There are observed beneficial mutations, [1] but all of them are small and found in E.coli and similar micro organisms. [1] I have found no sources saying that there are observed beneficial mutations that are big and in more complex organisms. In fact, there are no truly beneficial mutations. A lot of these so called beneficial mutations often cause another problem somewhere else, such as bacteria developing antibiotic reliance instead of antibiotic resistance. [2]

"3. When an individual has a mutation that is beneficial for surviving in its current environment ( like giraffes having slightly longer necks so they can always reach for leaves that haven't been eaten by others.) the individual has a bigger chance to survive."

See point 2.

"4. If you have a bigger chance to survive, you are more likely to have children."
As stated in point 2, they do not necessarily give you a bigger chance of surviving. They become reliant of their environment instead of adapting to it.

"5. Some of those children will inherit the beneficial mutation.
6. They will also have a bigger chance to survive and have children.
7. This will cause the population of individuals with the benefit ( longer neck ) to grow.
8. If this keeps happening with a lot of different kinds of mutations the species will eventually be totally different from the initial species, maybe so different they aren't able to have children with each other, what makes them a different species."

See above.
Plus, all my opponent has said was HOW evolution works. It only proves evolution if beneficial mutations exist.

"If to [sic]groups of the same species get separated and live in a different environment they will not have the same mutations and different kinds of mutations will be naturally selected."

But how did they get separated? Plate tectonics does work and continents are moving, but for plate tectonics to separate landmasses takes millions of years, which requires an old earth, and abiogenesis to amoeba-to-man evolution also requires an old earth. So to prove that evolution is true, then the underlying assumption that the earth is old also has to be proven true. However, the age of the earth is still very controversial, and it is not the topic of the debate, so I am not going to elaborate on it. Still, there has to be a reason for them to get separated!

Sources:

[1]http://www.gate.net...
[2]http://www.answersingenesis.org...
Debate Round No. 1
Luteraar

Pro

This is also my first debate so that makes it fair (:

Beneficial mutations may not be common, but they don't have to be because evolution takes a very long time. And con says that all beneficial mutations also cause problem, but if it is a great benefit, and a smell problem, it is still beneficial.
Also, mutations aren't the only way for a species to change:
If there are two giraffes with slightly longer necks have children, some of those children will have even longer necks, without there having to be any mutations.
This can happen, humans even make it happen themselves when we breed animals. For example dogs; Most if not every dog race, has been bred by humans.
If someone wanted a strong but friendly dog, they would get a very strong dog and a very loyal and kind dog, and let them mate. (I know this exact example maybe didn't happen, but similar thing did, and still do). This process can also happen in nature.

Another way of changing is; when you have rabbits that can be born with either grey or whit fur, and this color is their camouflage because they live on rocks with snow, but then the climate changes and it gets colder, all the rock gets covered in snow and the grey rabbits get eaten by predators. Only the white ones survive.

Then to the separation issue:
Plate tectonics aren't the only way they can get separated, it can also happen simply because two groups that already don't live together go different directions. Or when there is a species that spreads across a very big area, and because of climate change, some parts of that area get warmer/colder or get more/less/different flora or different predators, and some parts stay the same or change differently.

The earth is around 4.5 billion years old, this has been proven by geologists, based on radiometric dating.
But as con said, this is not what this debate is about.
But con also says "So to prove that evolution is true, then the underlying assumption that the earth is old also has to be proven true." this is not correct, evolution doesn't have to include everything evolving from the first life form. Even if this is not true and all life came to earth in an other way, for example god put them here, evolution can still be true, if you believe God put all life on earth 6000 years ago ( or whatever you think happened), evolution can still happen, it would have happened in the thousands of years since life came here, it would be happening now and would continue happening in the future.

Finally I have a question for you Con.
If you think evolution is not true, how do you think life came here, and what evidence do you have for that?

I know this is not what the debate is about, but for evolution not to be true, there has to be some other way life came on earth.

P.S. Since you will have the last turn, I want to ask you to please not post any new arguments in the last turn, for I would not be able to refute them and that would not be fair.
acrotun24521

Con

"Beneficial mutations are still beneficial even though they may cause something wrong elsewhere, it depends on the benefit compared to the problem"

However, benefits are often less than problems in "beneficial" mutations. For example, one of these problems include a mutation in the gene CCR5 resulting in HIV resistance, but also causing a higher risk of Hepatitis B and West Nile Virus. [1] Hepatitis B and West Nile are WAY more common than HIV.

"evolution doesn't have to include everything evolving from the first life form. Even if this is not true and all life came to earth in an other way, for example god put them here, evolution can still be true"

I thought that you were talking about the theory of evolution, and not evolution in general. My bad.

"Plate tectonics aren't the only way they can get separated, it can also happen simply because two groups that already don't live together go different directions."

But why? So the animals just separate themselves for no reason as if they know that it would be more beneficial? I never have heard of rabbits that have PhD's in biology.

"If you think evolution is not true, how do you think life came here, and what evidence do you have for that?"

Creationism. Everything is just so perfect!

[1] http://www.answersingenesis.org...
Debate Round No. 2
Luteraar

Pro

Mutations are random, so if non-beneficial mutations exist, beneficial mutations exist too.

"But why? So the animals just separate themselves for no reason as if they know that it would be more beneficial? I never have heard of rabbits that have PhD's in biology."

They didn't do it on purpose, lots of animals life in groups, small or huge, but there are always multiple groups, no group ever includes every single individual in the species. Those groups live separate from each other, so they don't even know where the other groups are. And when they are spread across a very big area, every group could be close to another group but the groups on the edge of the area will be far away from the groups on the other side of the area.
Besides, it would be equally weird when the groups would just always stay close to each other, that just costs effort and it is not always beneficial.

"Creationism. Everything is just so perfect!"

First, that is not evidence, that is just your reason for believing in it.
Besides, not everything is perfect, life is very dangerous, there are many diseases you can die from, and many animals have hundreds of children while only a few survive. If everything was perfect, there would be no predators, only herbivores.
And there are flaws in human anatomy which indicates the body was not intelligently designed:
-Your food and your air goes through the same hole, it would be smarter to make two holes, that way we couldn't choke on our food.
-Your appendix, why would God have made it if it had no use?
- The same goes for your wisdom teeth.
If God is perfect and he created us, why would we have these flaws?
You might say these flaws also disprove evolution, but that is not true, because evolution isn't making us perfect, it just makes us adapt to our environment, the first flaw was just not harmful enough to make much difference, and the appendix and the wisdom teeth are just leftover from our ancestors who may have needed them so they are even evidence for evolution.

And again, don't make any new arguments in your next turn, because I couldn't refute them anymore and that would not be fair because then you could just make random claims without evidence.

And voters, please make sure you vote based only on the arguments given in this debate, because in this subject it is almost impossible to change someones mind.

Good luck con, I just want to thank you for this debate, I really enjoyed it : )
acrotun24521

Con

acrotun24521 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Luteraar 4 years ago
Luteraar
I feel like I should have won since he forfeited.
Posted by jh1234l 4 years ago
jh1234l
Hi Luteraar,

Maybe they did not vote because the voting period was too short?
Posted by Luteraar 4 years ago
Luteraar
Why is nobody voting?
Posted by Luteraar 4 years ago
Luteraar
Why did you forfeit?
Posted by Luteraar 4 years ago
Luteraar
Again, try to vote for the one with the best arguments, not the one you agree with, and it would be great if everybody could select tied in the ones about what you agree with because it is almost impossible to change someones mind in this topic.
Posted by Luteraar 4 years ago
Luteraar
This is proof of evolution because, as I say:
"If you believe in DNA, DNA-transfer and mutation, there is no other way than evolution being true."
If the three above exist, there is no other way than evolution being true.
Posted by jh1234l 4 years ago
jh1234l
Your argument does explain evolution through beneficial mutations pretty well, but it would be better if it was elaborated on more (e.g. how it is more likely than not, how it is strong evidence of evolution) with sources to prove them.
No votes have been placed for this debate.