The Instigator
dwperr2
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
SavedByChrist94
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Evolution occurs

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/9/2013 Category: Education
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 835 times Debate No: 33524
Debate Rounds (5)
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dwperr2

Pro

Changes in DNA (mutations) in an organisms germline can be passed on to subsequent generations. Should the changes be beneficial to the population they will be selected for. If they are deleterious, they will be lost.
SavedByChrist94

Con

"Changes in DNA (mutations) in an organisms germline can be passed on to subsequent generations."

Changes in germline passed on to subsequent generations are not proof for evolution, as a Mutation(Change in DNA) can be caused by death with this outline,

1, Death causes Breakdown of Any Life or Function into either Nonexistence or Non-Function.

2, DNA is subject to death

3, Thus death caused an accidental mutation, an example would be the Change of a Heart,

a Heart when over time broken down into nonfunction(death) will not function as should, and can either beat too fast or too slow, or skip a beat, this malfunction was caused by death, likewise DNA changing it's structure/Mutation can be caused by Death, the change can be beneficial or not.

" Should the changes be beneficial to the population they will be selected for. If they are deleterious, they will be lost."

A selection, ie. Selecting something is something intentional, all you argue is Intelligent Design/Intent.
Debate Round No. 1
dwperr2

Pro

Death has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution depends on reproduction and the ability to pass on heritable material (DNA) to subsequent generations. If you die before you reproduce, it doesn't matter what happens to your DNA, it's not passed on. I still don't quite understand what you mean by 'DNA is subject to death' because that has nothing to do with evolution. Selecting is nothing intentional, if one population contains an allele in a gene that gives it a benefit over another population then that allele will be selected for. The change in the allele was random (DNA mutation).
SavedByChrist94

Con

"Death has nothing to do with evolution"

Death has as much to do wit Evolution as Matter and Morality does, Evolution is the explanation of why we are as we are, Death is apart of us, Evolution must therefore accept death and morality into it's ideas. heck without death there wouldn't be Fossils.

Evolution has to explain this, so death is apart of every single living thing Under Evolution, so DNA is as well, Refuted.

"Evolution depends on reproduction and the ability to pass on heritable material (DNA) to subsequent generations. If you die before you reproduce, it doesn't matter what happens to your DNA, it's not passed on."

Thus eliminating any reason for Mating, as a rape would be a much easier solution for natural selection, there would be more changes for procreation and ability to pass on heritable material(DNA) with rape than with mating and selecting a mate, Since Factually rape would be advantageous under Evolution, as it increases the chances and prevents genes from not being passed on, under Evolution rape would be moral.

rape(sex without and/or against consent) however, is Objectively Immoral, Extremely Wrong(and I stress that), thus Evolution according to what you said, ""Evolution depends on reproduction and the ability to pass on heritable material (DNA) to subsequent generations" is not true, as if what you said(""Evolution depends on reproduction and the ability to pass on heritable material (DNA) to subsequent generations) is true than evolution falls apart with the fact that Natural Selection would have chosen rape, thus making it moral, when in reality rape is Immoral and should never happen.

" I still don't quite understand what you mean by 'DNA is subject to death' because that has nothing to do with evolution."

Yes it does, all that means is that Unbeneficial Mutations in DNA do not have to be explained by Evolution, but can be explained by death.

" Selecting is nothing intentional, if one population contains an allele in a gene that gives it a benefit over another population then that allele will be selected for."

Then evolution is impossible, because if selection is random, Macro-Evolution is Improbable,

Also no Scientist says Natural Selection is Random, you refute basic principles of the evolution idea.

'At the opposite end scale, natural selection is sometimes interpreted as a random process. This is also a misconception. The genetic variation that occurs in a population because of mutation is random-but selection acts on that variation in a very non-random way: genetic variants that aid survival and reproduction are much more likely to become common than variants that don't. Natural selection is NOT random!" - http://evolution.berkeley.edu...

Evolution is Scientifically and Logically, Dismissed.
Debate Round No. 2
dwperr2

Pro

Evolution doesn't speak to morality. Evolution only answers how species arise and through what mechanism. Evolution is only focuses on the DNA a population passes on the future populations. We also aren't talking about the formation of fossils, which has no barring on evolution, it just provides examples of traits of long dead organisms. Why do we die? No one really knows. There is no good answer to that, and if you are saying evolution doesn't answer why we die, then I'll agree with you somewhat.

You need to learn the difference between 'sexual selection' and 'natural selection'. You make sound like rape is an easy thing to do, like the female of a species will just let this happen. What about the fact that in a large number of species the female is larger than the male? The cost of rape would be high and not preferred. Females do have the ability to reject matings and will fight off aggressive males. But, even with that, rape still does happen, does it not? Leaving aside morality because we aren't discussing that. Remember?

Changes in DNA do not happen because of death. Changes in DNA happen because the machinery to replicate DNA is error prone and can cause mutations. All of this happens while you are alive, and while the cell is alive.

I never said selection was random, I said the mutation was random. I said the selection is not intentional. Selection is not done deliberately, selection is done because there was something to select for or against.
SavedByChrist94

Con

"Evolution doesn't speak to morality."

Yes it does, it HAS to, Morality is something that Objectively exists in us, our Reason for living, Evolution is an idea of how we are the way we are now, it claims species evolve into new and better species, so it must explain everything that is apart of the Human species and not the species below, which is Morality, this no one can deny, whether evolution happened or not, it must explain morality, which not only has it not done so, but I proved it would justify an immorality such as rape in round 2, also we can agree that Homosexuality is not Immoral, however under the Darwinian/"macro-evolution" idea, Homosexuality would be Disadvantageous to reproduction and the ability to pass on heritable material (DNA) to subsequent generations. , thus Natural Selection would have made it Nonexistent or would have made it Immoral, one of the two, it exists and is not Immoral, so again evolution, Macro-evolution to be specific cannot be true.

Also, otherwise people like richard dawkins wouldn't go to lengths to defend Morality under evolution(For example richard dawkins said in his ridiculous book, "He then turns to the subject of morality, maintaining that we do not need religion to be good. Instead, our morality has a Darwinian explanation: altruistic genes, selected through the process of evolution, give people natural empathy. He asks, "would you commit murder, rape or robbery if you knew that no God existed?" He argues that very few people would answer "yes", undermining the claim that religion is needed to make us behave morally. In support of this view, he surveys the history of morality, arguing that there is a moral Zeitgeist that continually evolves in society, generally progressing toward liberalism. As it progresses, this moral consensus influences how religious leaders interpret their holy writings. Thus, Dawkins states, morality does not originate from the Bible, rather our moral progress informs what part of the Bible Christians accept and what they now dismiss.[23]"

SOURCE Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org...

"You need to learn the difference between 'sexual selection' and 'natural selection'. You make sound like rape is an easy thing to do, like the female of a species will just let this happen. "

What would it be to evolution if a female would let it happen or not, doesn't change the fact that it would chose rape, as rape even with a strong struggle would be more probable than mating, thus natural selection would no matter what choose, sex without consent, which is sad.

" What about the fact that in a large number of species the female is larger than the male?"

Exactly, this also disproves evolution, had evolution been true, it would adapt to make rape easier and more accessible for the male to commit, again and again evolution cannot be true.

" The cost of rape would be high and not preferred. "

This takes the assumption that it was by accident that female is larger than male on a large number of species, Natural selection would just adapt and make the male larger.

"Females do have the ability to reject matings and will fight off aggressive males."

Doesn't change the fact that it would be more probable for rape to cause procreation than mating, natural selection would have chosen, rape, this disproves it.

" But, even with that, rape still does happen, does it not? Leaving aside morality because we aren't discussing that. Remember?"

Rape happens, and it's immoral, if evolution is true, it would be moral, we wouldn't feel bad about it or find it disgusting.

"Changes in DNA do not happen because of death. Changes in DNA happen because the machinery to replicate DNA is error prone and can cause mutations. All of this happens while you are alive, and while the cell is alive."

The Process of death is what I speak of, Not IMMEDIATE death, Death takes a Process, Life breaks down and malfunctions, and this causes, Death which is Non-Function or Non-existence, here I use Non-Function. since that's the case and all living things are dying, which you admitted, in Round 3 by saying "Why do we die? No one really knows. There is no good answer to that, and if you are saying evolution doesn't answer why we die, then I'll agree with you somewhat."

Since death happens and DNA is subject to it, a Breakdown(Death) can cause a Mutation/Alteration in DNA. The Process of Death happens when you are alive, that's how we die, something happens, Breakdown, this Breakdown is constant, from the minute we are born our cells die.

"I never said selection was random, I said the mutation was random."

1, by saying Selection isn't random, what it is? Intentful? because that's the only way things happen, With intent or without, By Accident or on Purpose, Intentionally or Random.

2, I do not contend that a mutation in DNA is random, as I agree death causes Random circumstances, thus when death causes DNA mutation or malfunction, I agree it's random, notice how Evolution is not necessary to explain a random mutation?

"I said the selection is not intentional."

you contradict yourself, first you said, "I never said selection was random" then say "I said the selection is not intentional.""

If something is not intentional, it's random, if something is not random, it's intentional/chosen/selected, it's one or the other.

" selection is done because there was something to select for or against."

Something needs intent in order to Select, something Random cannot Select, it just happens.
Debate Round No. 3
dwperr2

Pro

It may or may not speak to morality, but again, that's not what we are arguing. Dawkins has his ideas as to why morality exists, but there are others out there. Do all animals exhibit morality? Not sure they do, so what does it say to how morality would relate to new species formation?

Again, you make a large, completely untrue assumption that rape is preferred, or even possible in all species. It isn't. Drosophila malanogaster females have the ability to reject makings completely, even if 'forced'. You also make a small sexist assumption that males should be larger to rape easier? Everything is cost/benefit. What if being larger makes you more susceptible to predation? Predation would prevent mating, therefore it's beneficial to be small. Females are often larger because they need to be to support offspring, males don't have that issue.

Most (if not all) of your arguments focus on the human species. When evolution is the reason for ALL species. We look at rape as a negative, and other species do too. Birds fly, we can't. Does that make they're mode of transportation better? No, it's just what best suits their species. Consensual sex best suits our species so it is possible for it to be selected for.

You begin to die as soon as you are born, your death argument is still not very clear to me, or how it relates to the ability to pass on DNA to the next generation(?). Ok, things die, whatever, who cares? We are talking about evolution. If we are talking about changes in DNA only, you shouldn't call it 'death', it's simply a mutation.

I cannot stress enough that you need to have the ability to separate things in your mind, and at least attempt to understand the basics of the evolutionary process.
- Species have to have the ability to be selected upon, and the ability to pass on what is selected
- DNA, being the material that is passed on (mostly true) is what is selected (random mutations). Make sure you see- selection, not random; mutations random.

When you say 'intentional' it conjures up the idea that evolution has a purpose, or a goal. If this isn't what you mean, then I'm sorry, I misunderstood. But, if itnis what you mean (I think it is), if you look at the very Berkley Natural Selection article YOU POSTED you'll see that is not the case.

The cause of the mutation doesn't matter, does it? As long as the mutation is passed on to the germline. Most mutations occur because of DNA replication errors, but if that is what you are calling 'death', then ok, whatever. It's still random. A mutation in a certain gene happens at random in DNA replication, and this happens throughout life. Or though out the begins of 'death' if you like.

Ok, I have a grownup job to go to tomorrow putting human genes into bacteria so I can then express them in rats- with the hope that this can lead to a better understanding of human disease. But whatever, none of that is possible because, you know, rat data is rat data, human data is human data. Which means I'm done this round. You get the last post, and yes, I'm not going the full five rounds, because I'm tired. Go ahead and claim victory for this reason, I could really care less.
SavedByChrist94

Con

"It may or may not speak to morality, but again, that's not what we are arguing"

First you said in round 3, "Evolution doesn't speak to morality.", now you say it "may or may not", contradiction.

"Do all animals exhibit morality? Not sure they do, so what does it say to how morality would relate to new species formation?"

They do, but they exhibit, herd morality, which isn't objective, Humans have Objective Moral Values. when a cheetah kills a monkey, it doesn't MURDER the monkey, it simply kills it.

How did Objective Moral Values come about under Evolution? They Objectively exist, however Evolution cannot explain this, but the idea of evolution claims rape to be right and homosexuality to be evil.

"Again, you make a large, completely untrue assumption that rape is preferred, or even possible in all species. It isn't. Drosophila malanogaster females have the ability to reject makings completely, even if 'forced'. "

And again Natural Selection would adapt to fix this problem.

"You also make a small sexist assumption that males should be larger to rape easier? "

I'm being hypotheitical for debate purposes, don't dare call me a sexist, I value everyone equal. the "penetrator" would have to be larger to make rape easier or "catching" the victim easier, there is no sexism involved.

also it was you that brought up this argument in round 2 by saying "What about the fact that in a large number of species the female is larger than the male? The cost of rape would be high and not preferred"

Why be hypocritical?

"Most (if not all) of your arguments focus on the human species. When evolution is the reason for ALL species. We look at rape as a negative, and other species do too. Birds fly, we can't. Does that make they're mode of transportation better? No, it's just what best suits their species. Consensual sex best suits our species so it is possible for it to be selected for."

Nope, more procreation would be increased by rape, thus Natural Selection would have chosen it, unless you can demonstrate why mating/consensual sex best suits our species(which doesn't matter because under just our species rape would have been chosen), we have to reject evolution for going directly against a Fact of Reality, that rape is wrong.

"You begin to die as soon as you are born, your death argument is still not very clear to me, or how it relates to the ability to pass on DNA to the next generation(?)."

"If we are talking about changes in DNA only, you shouldn't call it 'death', it's simply a mutation."

No, we ask what caused the mutation, An accident, death, or intent, death can cause a mutation that isn't beneficial, thus we don't need evolution as an explanation.

"I cannot stress enough that you need to have the ability to separate things in your mind, and at least attempt to understand the basics of the evolutionary process.
- Species have to have the ability to be selected upon, and the ability to pass on what is selected"

And Selection is something Intentional, a Selection cannot be Random or Mindless, Intent is used when something is selected, unless you say Randomly happening we cannot have Naturalistic Evolution but only Theistic with any Selection/Intent.

"DNA, being the material that is passed on (mostly true) is what is selected (random mutations)."

Random mutations can be caused by process of death, no evolution/natural selection needed to explain random mutations.

2, a random mutation isn't a selection.. it's just a random change, a Selection is something... Selected, a Mind is needed for something to be Selected, as Selection(choice) involves intent.

"When you say 'intentional' it conjures up the idea that evolution has a purpose, or a goal. If this isn't what you mean, then I'm sorry, I misunderstood. But, if itnis what you mean (I think it is), if you look at the very Berkley Natural Selection article YOU POSTED you'll see that is not the case."

If Intentional then there can be Selections, if not, if Random, there is no selection, just luck and hope.

"The cause of the mutation doesn't matter, does it? "

Actually it does, because say we conclude Theistic Evolution is a Proper Theory, we can easily say that instead of an Evolution guided by God(YHWH), that YHWH made all living things similar and there appears to be an evolution when in reality YHWH just made different levels of species at once, with similar coding.

"A mutation in a certain gene happens at random in DNA replication, and this happens throughout life. Or though out the begins of 'death' if you like."

Is the random Mutation of DNA a Necessity? Simple. If so, demonstrate.

", you know, rat data is rat data, human data is human data. "

This is a fact.

"Go ahead and claim victory for this reason, I could really care less."

Come on.
Debate Round No. 4
dwperr2

Pro

dwperr2 forfeited this round.
SavedByChrist94

Con

SavedByChrist94 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
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