The Instigator
bsh1
Pro (for)
Winning
12 Points
The Contender
themohawkninja
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Experts' Tier R1: In a fair fight, Mace Windu would likely defeat Yoda.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
bsh1
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/20/2013 Category: Movies
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,775 times Debate No: 42706
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (23)
Votes (4)

 

bsh1

Pro

This debate is part of the Experts' Tier of the official DDO Tournament.

Topic:

In a fair fight, Mace Windu would likely defeat Yoda.

Rules:

1. Debaters may pull from canon texts, the official Star wars movies, and Wookieepedia to construct their arguments
2. BOP: Pro must show that Mace Windu would likely defeat Yoda; Con must show that Yoda would likely defeat Mace Windu.
3. Any forfeit constitutes a 7-point loss

Definitions:

Fair Fight - a fight in which neither competitor has any special advantage other than what they would normally be able to do. In a fair fight the rules apply equally to all contestants.
Likely - indicating probability and/or plausibility
Defeat - to win victory over. This does not mean Windu must kill Yoda, only render him unable to continue or force him to concede the battle.

Structure:

R1: Acceptance
R2: Core Cases (no rebuttals)
R3: Rebuttals
R4: Rebuttals
R5: Rebuttals and Crystallization (no new arguments, evidence, or responses)

Context:

Mace Windu: http://starwars.wikia.com...
Yoda: http://starwars.wikia.com...

Thanks:

To Ninja for what promises to be a nerdtastic debate and to TUF for organizing this tournament.
themohawkninja

Con

Okay, today's the 24th, so let's do this!
Debate Round No. 1
bsh1

Pro

Many thanks to Ninja--this should be an amazing round. This is the most fun topic I have done so far on DDO, and I am looking forward to it. I will be making a quick analysis of the framework and then I will present my case.

FRAMEWORK

I know that Yoda may be a fan favorite, but I would ask that voters vote based on the merits of our arguments, not based on personal opinions. BOP is shared: I must support the theory that Mace Windu would win in this hypothetical situation, whereas Ninja must support the theory that Yoda would win. Definitions have already been set and are uncontestable. Therefore, I must show that it is probable or plausible that Mace Windu would garner victory in this fair fight.

PRO's CASE

My case will be constructed in four portions, discussing Windu's force abilities, his lightsaber prowess, and his past feats in battles. I will then do a brief analysis of Yoda to conclude.

-- Windu's Force Abilities --

Windu has the following force abilities: force leap, force wave, force grip, force crush, force speed, telekinesis, shatterpoint, among others. [1] I will discuss, in turn, the relevance to the resolution (i.e. their utility in battle) of each of these powers.

1. Force Leap - this ability is key for several reasons. Being able to leap from danger or to pursue a foe--in fact, mobility in general--is vital in a battle scenario.
2. Force Wave - this allows an individual to send a pulse of force energy out radiating from them. It is capable of destroying hundreds of opponents at once depending on the scope of the energy invested. Clearly, this ability would be a useful weapon in any duel. [2]
3. Force Grip - "The target could be seized with great strength, lifted off their feet and suspended in the air by a powerful Force user. If used to a high degree, it could crush an opponent's bones or organs." [2]
4. Force Speed - enhanced agility. Windu was so proficient at this ability that he could land six blows to another force user before that person could blink. [1]
5. Telekinesis - Windu was highly adept at a variety of derivations of this ability. His skill with manipulating solid objects enabled him to shift things like an At-TE Walker with ease. [1]
6. Shatterpoint - This power "allowed a Jedi to shatter otherwise unbreakable objects by channeling the Force into the places of the object that bound it together." This ability could also be employed during battle, allowing the user to see the weak points in the other's moves and person. [1]

Let's take a moment to compare this with Yoda. Yoda's telekinetic ability is probably inferior to Windu's. If you reference three notable examples of Yoda's use of telekinesis (his battle with Sidious, his battle with Dooku, and lifting the X-wing on Dagobah) we can see that Yoda has to exert enormous amounts of concentration and effort to lift these heavy objects. The AT-TE Windu lifted with ease is at least as heavy, and probably heavier, than the X-wing Yoda manipulated (based on the objects' sizes.) [3, 4] The fact that Windu had an easier time manipulating something heavier than Yoda did gives us insight into how they might match up in a fight. Additionally, shatterpoint is not one of the abilities attributed to Yoda, seemingly putting Mace Windu ahead. [5, 13]

-- Windu's Lightsaber Skills --

Windu is the only Jedi to have fully mastered Vapaad (a subset of Juyo), the most difficult and aggressive lightsaber form. [1, 6] Even Yoda has conceded that Windu was the only individual to have fully mastered Juyo--Windu is thus a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat, more so than Yoda is. [6]

"Juyo users were proficient in a technique called 'Assured Strike,' wherein they traded sheer power for a near-certainty of landing a hit. Another technique they used was referred to as 'Vornskr's Ferocity,' which involved 'ferocious' attacking of an opponent...Those skilled in the Vaapad form were known for their use of the 'Swift Flank' technique, where they leaped or dashed around an opponent to make a quick strike. The speed of the maneuver was intended to catch opponents off guard." Windu's incredible speed (for Swift Flank) as well as his shatterpoint ability (for Assured Strike) would compliment this style very well, enabling him to use it to maximum effect.

-- Windu's Past Feats --

At the Battle of Dantooine, "[Windu] single-handedly defeated an army of B2 super battle droids and a massive seismic tank, using his bare fists for much of the battle when he lost his lightsaber in the tank's initial blast. Windu later regained said lightsaber, leapt onto a part of the tank, cut his way inside, battled the droids and destroyed the tank from within." [1, 7]

At Omphalos, Windu completed a similar accomplishment, defeating large numbers of battle droids single-handedly. [8] On the Rig, Windu and 3 other Jedi destroyed a massive facility after defeating hundreds of bounty hunters in order to do so. [9] This illustrates Windu's ability against not just droids, but biological life-forms as well.

At the Battle of Boz Pity, Windu managed to outmaneuver Count Dooku in combat--something Yoda failed to do on Geonosis. [10, 14] Had it not been for his Magna-Guards, Dooku would have perished by Windu's hand. This illustrates that Windu's prowess in combat, but it also shows that Windu could do something Yoda did not: defeat Dooku.

During the Battle of Coruscant, Windu defeated Gen. Grievous while dueling him atop a moving train. Windu would later force crush part of the cyborg, resulting in his coughing fits. [1, 11] Windu also showed great skill as a pilot, using his personal ship to take out swaths of enemy forces during the assault. [1]

On Haruun Kal, "[Windu] managed to defeat three Sienar Turbostorm gunships, destroying two and crippling the third, in a masterful display of the versatility and lethality of Vaapad." Windu also showed while fighting on the planet that he was adept at using two blades at once. [1]

The final example of Windu's skill I will cite here is the attempt to arrest Supreme Chancellor Palpatine (Sidious.)

"[Windu's] mastery of Vaapad served him well in countering Sidious's dark side mastery. Windu and Sidious battle. The two viciously battled through the Chancellor's private office and lounging room into his main office. Driving Sidious back with an offensive march, Windu steered the battle towards the office bay-window, which was promptly shattered by their whirling blades. By bringing the duel to the ledge of the window-sill above the sheer drop of the Coruscant cityscape, Windu prompted Sidious to channel more energy into a Force-powered grip on the ledge, and less into the Force powered speed that he was using against Windu. Sidious's slight drop in speed allowed Windu to defeat the Sith Lord with a well-placed kick to the face, which caused him to drop his saber into the streets below." [1]

This excerpt shows not only the utility of Windu's actions, but also Windu's ability to strategize even while dueling. Windu was able to come up with a coherent plan to capitalize on his own skills and to minimize those of the Sith. That allowed him to essentially overpower Sidious.

Once he had cornered Sidious, Windu left the Sith little choice but to use the force in his defense. "Windu redirected the lightning back with his lightsaber, melting away the Chancellor's features in a display of the 'superconducting loop' of Vaapad." This is what deformed Sidious. [1, 12]

-- Yoda --

Yoda has one key disadvantage that must be noted before Con presents his case: Yoda is old.

1. Yoda has reduced mobility due to age.

"Yoda lost a great deal of his mobility, demonstrating a pronounced limp and depending on a cane to aid him in his everyday movements. When possible, Yoda preferred to use a hoverchair rather than walk at all. His mastery of Force Valor allowed him to overcome these physical infirmities, but due to the extremely taxing nature of the ability, he was only able to utilize it for a short time before tiring." [13]

2. Yoda has reduced telekinetic ability due to age.

"Since he passed age seven hundred, he has only been able to lift five of the seven Muntuur stones while in meditation." [13]

Thus, Yoda could only muster enough energy for a short duel. Mace Windu would therefore be the only one with enough stamina for a prolonged conflict. Moreover, Mace Windu would have the advantage in terms of telekinesis, an important factor in any force-based duel.

CONCLUSION

While Yoda is undoubtedly awesome, I submit that in a fair-fight between him and Windu, Windu would most likely emerge victorious. With his powerful force skills, his stamina, his lightsaber dueling capacities, his strategic mind in battle, and his past triumphs corroborating all of this, Windu would probably/plausibly win the fight. Thus, Pro rests.
14 - The Video. The pertenant sections begin at 2:30

Thank you! Please VOTE PRO!
themohawkninja

Con

For ease on the readers part, I shall format my first round similar to that of pro's.

Yoda's Force Abilities

Yoda has the following force abilities: Force push, force wave, lightsaber throw, and force disarm [1]. The ability's uses will be mentioned below.

1. Force Push: The ability to create a telekinetic impulse via the Force allows the user to hurl objects at foes, or keep objects from striking the user. The force push acts as more of a rocket, requiring the "gradual" acceleration of the object to high velocities.

2. Force Wave: A wave of pure Force-energy that pulsed out from the Force user allows the user to quickly launch objects at their opponent. The force wave acts as more of a gunshot, requiring one swift action to accelerate an object to high speeds.

3. Lightsaber Throw: An offensive use of the lightsaber, by utilizing the force, the user can throw their lightsaber, effectively making a melee weapon into a ranged weapon. This has the obvious benefit of keeping the wielder out of harms' way, while still being able to deal damage.

4. Force Disarm: Using the Force to pull a weapon from an opponent's grasp, the force-user could then choose to have the weapon fly into his hand, thereby removing a weapon from their opponent, and gaining a weapon in the same move.

In order to compare and contrast Yoda's skills with Mace Windu's, I will now point to a key use of the force by an individual that both Yoda and Windu faced. When Yoda had to face Darth Sidious in the so-called Skirmish of the Senate,
the dark lord of the Sith attacked Yoda with force lightning. Yoda was able to not only "catch" the lightning, but he was subsequently able to mold the lightning as well [7]. On the other hand, when Mace Windu was attacked by Darth Sidious during an attempt to arrest the dark lord, Sidious used the same lightning attack, which forced Windu to utilize his lightsaber rather than use a skillful application of the Force.

Yoda's Lightsaber Skills

Yoda is considered to be a master of all styles of lightsaber combat. While this is so, he prefers to use Form IV: Ataru. as it allows him to overcome his physical limitations. Yoda is known for displaying "amazing speed and dexterity, leaping through the air and twirling as he battered at an opponent's defenses". Much of his acrobatics are so because of the use of the force to aid his techniques in combat. Even though he was trained as a Jedi Consular (a distinct branch of the Jedi Order), he was considered one of the Jedi Order's greatest swordmasters [1].

In addition to his abilities on foot, Yoda is also adept in mounted lightsaber combat, as was displayed during the Battle of Coruscant [6].

Yoda's Past Feats

-In addition to being a Jedi Grandmaster, Yoda was also a general as during the Clone Wars, he arrived with a contingent of the new clone army. He then commanded the forces of the Republic to victory in the First Battle of Geonosis just before detecting a disturbance in the force [2].

-During the Battle of Axion, Yoda tricked a Hailfire droid into burying itself under twelve tons of collapsing rock [3].

-Around the time of the Battle of Muunilinst, Yoda came to the rescue of Jedi, Luminara Unduli and Barriss Offee, with the help of Senator Padm" Amidala of Naboo after the Crystal Caves on Ilum were destroyed by chameleon droids [4].

-During the Clone Wars, Yoda oversaw many missions from the Jedi Temple, as he would sift through several intelligence reports and worked with the Council to determine which to act upon [4].

-Yoda was selected to lead diplomatic relations with the Toydarian King Katuunko. When it was discovered that Asajj Ventress was on the moon, Yoda took up a wager to defeat her troops. Various feats occurred [5]:
-Yoda was able to defeat an entire squad of droids on his own without using his lightsaber by making a droid fire on its own troops
-Yoda successfully disarmed Asajj Ventress
-Yoda was given the ceremonial sword by the King, and was entrusted with the planet's safety.

-When Order 66 was enacted, Yoda was able to decapitate Commander Gree and his assistant with a single strike and stop the rest of his former troops from assassinating him.

Mace Windu

Mace Windu has one key disadvantage that is not shared by pro. Mace Windu was killed in action, unlike Yoda who died of old age. One of Mace Windu's murderers was a person that Yoda had fought beforehand and survived against.

Conclusion

While Mace Windu has committed valiant acts as a Jedi, he never reached the same Jedi status as Yoda and died at the hands of a person whom Yoda successfully survived against. Thus, con rests. I thank all who were able to make this debate happen.

1. http://starwars.wikia.com...
2. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yoda#Clone_Wars
3. http://starwars.wikia.com...
4. http://starwars.wikia.com...
5. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yoda#Rusgosa
6. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yoda#Battle_of_Coruscant
7. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yoda#Duel_in_the_Senate
Debate Round No. 2
bsh1

Pro

Thanks to Ninja! I have been channeling my inner nerd all day in anticipation of this debate--in other words, I've been looking forward to it. I will use this round to respond to Con's Case andto compare and contrast Yoda and Windu.

CON's CASE

-- Yoda's Force Abilities --

Clearly Yoda does have the abilities Con mentioned. But it is important to note that Mace Windu also has force wave, and force push--as asubset of telekinesis--can also be performed by Windu. Windu also has more abilities on which to draw than Yoda; this is because Windu is able to channel his aggressive energies into constructive use in combat. [1]In other words, Windu is willing to use abilities, like force crush, which come close to the Dark Side. [2]Yoda tends to avoid such abilities, preferring to stay firmly in the light. This means Windu has a greater range of options in the use of the force, and has greater access to powerful, darker force techniques.

Con then uses Windu's and Yoda's conflicts with Darth Sidious to contrast the two Jedi. Con asserts that the fact that Yoda caught Sith lightning with his hands shows an ability greater than Windu, who used a lightsaber. Firstly, I don't think Sith lightning will be used in a Windu vs. Yoda faceoff. More importantly though, Windu created a force loop, by which he redirected Sidious's own energy back at him. Windu's use of this Vaapad technique is what caused Sidious's deformities. [3]

Yoda created no such loop in his battle with Sidious. [4] You can also see this evidenced in Yoda's battle with Dooku--Yoda couldn't redirect the energy while Dooku was deploying it against him. Yoda had to wait until after Dooku had stopped to send Dooku's lightning back at Dooku. [5] Windu was able to do all of this simultaneously; that is Windu's advantage. Yoda is also unlikely to have been able tocreate thisloop because it was a Vaapad technique--and Yoda has not mastered Vaapad.

-- Yoda's Lightsaber Abilities --

Con is gliding over a key point here: "Yoda was a master of all but the Vaapad subset of Form VII." [6] Windu was, as I showed earlier, a master of all seven forms including Vaapad. Therefore, Windu actually has a more comprehensive mastery of lightsaber skills than Yoda. "Windu was one of the greatest swordsmen of his time." [3]

Yoda also prefer to use the Ataru form, which has several issues. It is "weaker in prolonged combat and confined spaces." [7]Again, Yoda's age prevents him from engaging in prolonged conflict. Force Valor allows him to sustain combat for a while [8] but Yoda can only rely on it for short periods, as I showed in my opening remarks. Therefore, based on Yoda's age and his chosen style of combat, Yoda could not last in a lenghty duel.

It is likely, based on Windu's skills, that Windu could prolong the battle, and with every minute that passed, Windu's chances of victory would increase.

-- Yoda's Past Feats --

No doubt Yoda was a skilled general, but so too was Windu [3]. The resolution is not asking about their skills as tacticians, but rather a duelists. Thus, I fail to see the relevance of Yoda's command skills on Genosis.

Windu is no Hailfire droid; he is a Senior member of the Jedi Council with impressive telekinetic powers. He would be unlikely to be trapped and tricked as the droid was. Furthermore, even if he were, he would be able to lift the stones off of himself and continue the duel.

Yoda required the help of Sen. Amidala to succeed in the Ilum incident; moreover, he hardly did all of the fighting himself. This is in direct and marked contrast to Windu's solofeat on Dantooine which I described in my case.

On the mission to save King Katuunko, Yoda recieved in valuable assistance of several Clones. without their aid, he would not have been able to accomplish his goal of reaching the King before nightfall and may have even been killed. The provided needed covering fire at moments. [9]

Many Jedi, such as Quinlan Vos, K'kruhk, and Tsui Choi survived Order 66. [10, 11, 12] That does not mean that any of these Jedi, or Yoda,could defeat Mace Windu.

-- Mace Windu --

Con implies that the fact that Mace Windu died at Sidious's hand whereas Yoda did not is relevant. However, Mace Windu was attacked by Anakin Skywalker, giving Sidious an opening to strike. Had Anakin not interefered, Sidious would have died. In this way, Windu got closer to killing Sidious than did Yoda. [13]

Yoda was not ganged up on like Windu was. Yoda had a 1-on-1 encounter, while Windu had a 2-on-1 encounter and a surprise attack as well. Clearly, the odds were against Windu. Yoda, even with better odds, didn't get as close to killing Sidious as Windu did.

SOURCES

1 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
2 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
3 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
4 - Video (Sidious). Pertenant sections begin immediately.
5 - Video (Dooku). Pertenant sections begin a 3:20.
6 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
7 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
8 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
9 - The image.
10 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
11 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
12 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
13 - The Video (Palpatine). Pertenant sections begin immediately.

Thus, Mace Windu would probably/plausibly defeat Yoda in a fair fight. Thank you! Please, VOTE PRO!
themohawkninja

Con

Yoda's Force Abilities

While pro asserts that Mace Windus' greater range of force powers puts him at an advantage against Yoda, I shall assert that this is not a valid point. During the First Battle of Geonosis Yoda and Count Dooku face off, and even though Dooku is a skilled master of telekinesis and a Sith lord, thereby giving him an even greater range of abilities than either Yoda or Mace Windu, Count Dooku realizes that he cannot win against Yoda and flees the building (and the planet) [1][2].

Next, pro asserts that Mace Windu's ability to create a force loop gives evidence to Mace Windu being the superior force user. What should be noted here is that this is not a use of the force, but a use of Mace Windu's lightsaber abilities [3]. Secondly, never is it mentioned what the level of difficulty required to redirect such Sith lightning. Such an ability could have just been a biproduct of the electrically charged Sith lightning with the ionized gas (plasma) of the lightsaber blade in combination with the short distances between the blade and Darth Sidious's face.

Yoda's Lightsaber Abilities

While pro asserts that Yoda is not a master of all forms, as I stated in the second round, Yoda is in-fact a master of all forms of lightsaber combat, but he prefers to use Form IV: Ataru [4]. While Yoda is not a master of the Vaapad subset of form VII, he is a master of the original version of this known as Juyo, with Mace Windu mastering the newer Vaapad subset [5]. Therefore both Jedi have an equal range of lightsaber combat techniques to utilize in combat.

Pro then asserts that Yoda's preferences for a form which has known issues puts him at a disadvantage. What should be noted here is that this is a mere preference, and not the only form that Yoda has mastered [4]. There is no evidence to suggest that Yoda would be just as capable with using any of the other lightsaber techniques as he would with using Ataru. Secondly, while pro asserts that Yoda's age would be an issue in prolonged combat, during the Battle of Kashyyyk, Yoda was able to fight "swarms of clone troopers" [6], thereby showing that Yoda is perfectly capable of prolonged combat, and in the cited case, against multiple opponents with ranged weapons.

Therefore Yoda's age and lightsaber skills are not disadvantageous to him in a duel against Mace Windu.

Yoda's Past Feats

While pro attempts to discredit the relevance of Yoda's capabilities as a tactician, I would like to make the point that nobody would rise to the rank of a general in the military without having been on the front lines at one point in time, and shown great aptitude in battle.

I highly doubt that Mace Windu would be able to survive twelve tons of rocks falling on him. Such weight is nearing that of all seven Muuntur stones. Only one Jedi ever (which in it of itself may just be a legend) has ever lifted all seven stones at once.

While pro asserts that Yoda did not fight very much during the rescue mission on Ilum, Yoda did in-fact destroy dozens of chameleon droids before rescuing the pair.

Pro uses an interpretation of an image of three clone troopers standing near Yoda to assert that they gave Yoda invaluable help.

While many Jedi survived Order 66, the Order killed at least 13 Jedi masters (this doesn't include people deemed as "Gatemasters", "Battlemasters", or a group of Jedi masters of an unknown quantity) [7]. This shows that such an Order required much skill to escape from.

Mace Windu

While pro attempts to defend the cause of Mace Windu's death by pointing out that Anakin Skywalker but off Mace Windu's hands, this actually shows a disadvantage for Mace Windu. Anakin Skywalker is not a Jedi Master, he has been defeated by a Jedi knight, and he is already known for using ill-thoughtout impulsive attacks like the one that resulted in Mace Windu's death, the most notable of these being the one that took his hand whilst charging Count Dooku [8].

Lastly, Yoda was unable to get as close to Darth Sidious a Mace Windu did, because Mace Windu fought Sidious in the confined space of a room using their lightsabers, while Yoda fought Sidious on the open ground of the Senate hall, whereby the Force was used at range.

1. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dooku#Force_abilities
2. http://starwars.wikia.com... (relevant part near the picture of Yoda and Dooku fighting)
3. http://starwars.wikia.com...
4. http://starwars.wikia.com...
5. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yoda
6. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Kashyyyk_(Clone_Wars)#Order_66
7. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Order_66#Victims
8. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anakin_Skywalker#Battle_of_Geonosis
Debate Round No. 3
bsh1

Pro

Thanks again to Ninja! I will use this speech to review my dropped case, and to rebut Con's case.

PRO's CASE

Con has Failed to Rebut my case. Please extend all of my dropped arguments.

Unfortunately, if Con responds to my Case this round, I will not be able to address his points next round due to the rules about "no new responses" in round 5. So, for the sake of fairness, I would ask Con to either forgo responding to my Case for the debate, or to agree to an exception so that I may respond to anything new he may say. I will construe any rebuttals of my dropped case as permission to provide responses to them in round 5.

Let me review the significance my case:

1. Windu has the shatterpoint ability: this ability allows Windu to see the weakenesses of his opponents so that he can exploit them. Yoda does not have this ability. Therefore, Windu is at a distinct advantage because he can sense where Yoda is weakest and can strike there.

2. Windu has the force speed ability; he is so fast that he can land 6 blows to another force user before that person could blink. That is an impressive display of the force, and shows (when combined with Windu's Force Leap ability) that Windu is likely more maneuverable than even Yoda.

3. Windu has the force wave ability, allowing him to send a pulse of force energy radiating out from him. This can eliminate hundreds of opponents at once.

4. Windu has the force grip ability, enabling him to crush an opponents bones or organs. This ability treds closely to the dark side, and so Yoda would likely be unwilling or unable to use it.

5. Windu has impressive telekinetic abilities. As I said earlier: "The fact that Windu had an easier time manipulating something heavier than Yoda did gives us insight into how they might match up in a fight." In a contest of pure force ability, such as the one that transpired between Yoda and Dooku, Windu would prevail over Yoda because Windu could fling heavier objects faster and with less energy (Windu wouldn't tire out as quickly.) Yoda would be hard-pressed to keep up.

6. Windu is the ONLY Jedi to have mastered all subsets of Juyo. Therefore, Windu is a master of all subsets of all forms of lightsaber combat. This means that he is a more accomplished duelist than Yoda because Windu is an expert at more types of lightsaber combat than Yoda is.

7. Windu's abilities suit his lightsaber style well, allowing him to deploy such strategies as "Assured Strike" which guarantees a near 100% hit ratio and Swift Flank with helps a duelist outmanuever and opponent. Windu could therefore score more hits on Yoda than Yoda could score on Windu. Windu would also be able to out-flank Yoda during their clash.

8. Windu defeated 82 battle droids with his bare hands. Even on Rugosa when Yoda was rescuing King Katuunko, Yoda had several clones and his lightsaber to help him to victory. Windu, let me repeat, used his BARE HANDS. Even disarmed, Windu with his fist-to-fist combat skills/strengths and with his telekinetic prowess would be more dangerous than Yoda would be disarmed. Windu even repeated this feat on Omphalos.

9. On Boz Pity, Windu outmaneuvered Dooku in battle--that's something Yoda failed to do on Geonosis. Mace Windu got closer to killing Dooku than Yoda ever did.

10. Windu is an accomplished and skilled pilot. If the battle between Yoda and Dooku became aerial, Windu would win. Con has never presented any evidence that suggests Yoda was a good combat pilot.

11. Windu was skilled at using two blades at once. Con never presents evidence showing that Yoda can use two blades well.

12. Windu is an excellent strategizer while dueling.

13. Yoda has reduced mobility due to age.

14. Yoda would tire out quickly in a duel. He can only maintain his energy for a short time period.

Remember: all of these points have been DROPPED by CON. Extend my arguments.

CON's CASE

-- Yoda's Force Powers --

Con says Dooku fled because he could not defeat Yoda. No. Dooku fled because he knew reinforcements would arrive to assist Yoda. Notice, Dooku leaves seconds after Padme and her clones arrive. [1] There is no evidence that Yoda alone would've defeated Dooku.

Con DROPS this point entirely: "Windu has a greater range of options" beecause he's more willing to use "powerful, darker force techniques."

Con then says that the superconducting loop that Windu created to deform and weaken Sidious was a lightsaber technique. To this I have two responses: (1) Even if it was solely a lightsaber technique, it's Vaapad, and Yoda is unlikely to be skilled in it; (2) the loop is not just a lightsaber ability. Vaapad, the lightsaber style which Windu employs, is an amalgamation of force abilities and blade skills. Vaapad requires that one channel one's inner darkness and convert it into helpful, controlled usages of the force. [2] Therefore, everything that one does in Vaapad is also a use of the force. It is an innacurate portrayal of the loop to say that it is ONLY an example of blade skills. It is also an example of focus, force prowess, and mastery of one's inner darkness.

Con also tries to claim that the loop was a "byproduct." Let's refer to the actual source: "Windu redirected the lightning back with his lightsaber, melting away the Chancellor's features in a display of the 'superconducting loop' of Vaapad." [2] Windu actively redirected the energy with Vaapad. This means that Windu was conciously causing this to happen and it was no byproduct.

-- Yoda's Lightsaber Abilities --

Con claims I said that Yoda was not a master of all forms. In fact, I never disputed that Yoda was an expert in much of Juyo. What I said was: "Windu was, as I showed earlier, a master of all seven forms including Vaapad. Therefore, Windu actually has a more comprehensive mastery of lightsaber skills than Yoda." The veracity of this statement is indisputable, insofar as Con concedes that "Yoda is not a master of the Vaapad subset."

Therefore, Con is entirely incorrect when he says that "both Jedi have an equal range of lightsaber combat techniques." Yoda is a complete master of 6 forms, with an almost complete mastery of Juyo, except for Vaapad. Winu is a complete master of all 7 forms, including Vaapad. Therefore, Windu has superior skills when it comes to lightsaber skills.

Con claims that Yoda is capable in forms besides Ataru--I agree (except for Vaapad.) Yet, Yoda is still likely to default to Ataru because it is his preference. It's psychological. Therefore, Yoda would likely tire out quickly. Notice, Con DROPS that Ataru would quickly tire him out and that it would fail in confined zones. Extend this.

Con also says Yoda wouldn't tire out. He cites Yoda's evasion of Order 66 as evidence of this. Con only provides a portion of the whole quote though. Here is the fuller quote of what happened on Kashyyyk: "Yoda then proceeded to escape into the nearby jungle along with Wookiee warriors Tarfful and Chewbacca, after fighting through swarms of clone troopers. Their quick escape was fortunate." [3]

Yoda made a QUICK getaway. Therefore, Yoda wasn't in combat that long, and was able to escape with speed. If he had been forced to fight longer, he would have tired out--my evidence shows this. Con's analysis failed to take into account the full quote.

-- Yoda's Past Feats --

Mace Windu was also a general in the Clone Wars, and was highly successful in battle. [2] Therefore, Yoda's generalship is a non-unique point.

Con says that Windu would not have survived so many rocks falling on him. Firstly. Windu is no Hailfire droid--as I showed in my dropped case, Windu is an excellent trategist while he duels. Therefore, Windu would not have been tricked into letting the stones fall on him. Secondly, Windu's telekinetic abilities surpass Yoda's, so Windu would likely survive.

I never said that Yoda did not fight--Con is miscontruing my argument again. In fact, my point was that Yoda did not do all the fighting; he had help. On Dantooine, Windu defeated 82 battle droids and a tank on his own. Extend my argument here--Con doesn't clash with them so they're essentially DROPPED.

Con says that my evidence is insufficient to show that the Clone's provided valuable assistance to Yoda. In fact, the photo shows that Yoda had help. If there are still doubts, I have provided a corroborating source. [4]

200 Jedi survives Order 66 [5]. That is about 2% of the Order. Many of them escaped by luck, like Master Zao. He refused to participate in the Clone Wars--no Clones to kill him.[6] Kenobi himself only sruvived by hiding, not due to battle skills. Therefore, we cannot say that escaping Order 66 really means anything. If Yoda survived, it's likely Windu would have too.

-- Mace Windu --

Con makes a serious of fallacious arguments here. Firstly, Con asserts that Anakin is a poor fighter because he failed in his duel with Dooku. Yet, that incident was several years before the encounter with Sidious. Secondly--and more importantly--Con is basing his claim on a false premise.

Con is saying that Mace Windu lost to Anakin Skywalker. In fact, that is incorrect. Mace Windu could not turn away from Sidious to confront Anakin because that would have left him exposed. Anakin AMBUSHED and OUTFLANKED Windu. Had Yoda been in that position, Yoda would have died as well.

The fact is that Windu came closer to defeating Sidious than Yoda did. Even Con seems to admit this, writing: "Yoda was unable to get as close to Darth Sidious a Mace Windu did."

Con also tries to say that the space they fought in matters. Notice, Yoda's Ataru, which he used on Sidious, is better in open spaces, so Yoda should have done better in the open, but he didn't.

SOURCES

1 - The Video (Dooku). 10:30 -11:00


3 - http://starwars.wikia.com...(Clone_Wars)#Order_66

4 - Video (Ventress). 5:30 - 6:15


Thanks! VOTE PRO!
themohawkninja

Con

Pro's Case

I shall forgo responding to the claim that I have failed to rebut pro's case, but only on the grounds that I have no idea where pro is getting such an assertion from.

1. Such an ability would only be useful if his opponent was unaware that Mace Windu had such an ability. Master Yoda, having been on the Jedi Council with Windu, been on at least one mission with him, and having been Mace Windu's personal master, Yoda would surely know that his weakest points would be a special target for Mace Windu, and would therefore make note to protect those parts of his body more than usual [1].

2. Such a feat was only ever demonstrated once. Impressive as it is, the ability has a drains the Force-users' energy and metabolism, requiring a longer recovery period before using it again. Therefore even if Mace Windu decided to use such an ability, he would only be able to use it a few times if not only once without risking too much of a drain on his energy [2].

3. While this may be so, Yoda was also a master practitioner of the Force Wave [3].

4. While Yoda would certainly not utilize such a technique, Yoda is a very acrobatic fighter, and therefore such a use of the Force on Yoda would be very difficult to achieve.

5. While Mace Windu has been able to lift an AT-TE walker (a large metal walker which is approximately 13x5x5 meters in volume), Yoda has lifted not one, but two C-9979 landing craft (a large transport vessel which is approximately 210x370x150 meters in volume). Therefore it is very unlikely that Mace Windu is stronger in the Force than Yoda.

6. While this may be so, according to the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook: "...only his onetime friend, Dooku, and the venerable Grand Master Yoda could outspar him" [4].

7. As mentioned in point #6, the fact that canonical texts assert that Yoda could outspar Mace Windu would surely cut down that "near 100%" to something a bit more modest. Yoda's acrobatic skills would also be on par, if not out-match Mace Windu's attempts to outmaneuver Yoda.

8. To use one of pro's previous arguments against himself, Yoda is NOT a battle droid, and therefore would not be as easily captured and killed.

9. Yoda only "failed", because he had to save Obi-wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker from being crushed by a very large pillar which Dooku had allowed to fall on them in an attempt to escape possible defeat by Yoda [5].

10. While Yoda may not be a distinguished pilot, he still is very strong in the Force as mentioned earlier with notable examples against huge transport vessels.

11. While Yoda is not known to have used two lightsabers at once, he has disarmed Asajj Ventress, a Sith who utilized two lightsabers in combat, therefore showing that Yoda could spar with a person using more than one lightsaber by disarming them [6].

12. Considering Yoda's position as a general, I will assert that Yoda is most likely an excellent strategist during a duel as well.

13. While pro insists that Yoda's age compromises him, during the Duel in the Senate Yoda is clearly capable of jumping and flipping around with ease, even though he is many centuries old at this point [8].

14. This point is so if and only if the duel is drawn out. Obviously, Yoda would not have lived to the age he did if he allowed duels to go on past when his energy reserves would be depleted.

Yoda's Force Powers

I reiterate the aforementioned quote from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook to show evidence that Yoda alone could defeat Dooku.

While pro once again asserts that I did not address one of his points, I actually did in the earlier round: "While pro asserts that Mace Windus' greater range of force powers puts him at an advantage against Yoda, I shall assert that this is not a valid point. During the First Battle of Geonosis Yoda and Count Dooku face off, and even though Dooku is a skilled master of telekinesis and a Sith lord, thereby giving him an even greater range of abilities than either Yoda or Mace Windu, Count Dooku realizes that he cannot win against Yoda and flees the building (and the planet)."

While pro asserts that such a superconducting loop was the result of Vaapad, he asserts no evidence of it. Vaapad is an aggressive technique, whereas the loop appeared to be almost purely defensive [9]. Therefore pro's entire rebuttal lies upon a baseless assumption.

While pro asserts that conscious decisions negate actions as being discredited as mere byproducts, that would be like saying that if I consciously went out in a thunderstorm with a metal rod to get struck by lightning, my conscious decision to do so negates the fact that the properties of the metal rod and the current state of the weather affected the chances of be getting struck by lightning.

Yoda's Lightsaber Abilities

While I cannot deny that Yoda is not a master of the Vaapad subset, Yoda has (as shown by the battle between him and Count Dooku proven that a wider range of abilities doesn't necessarily give you an advantage in battle.

Still again pro asserts that I drop points when I don't. I encourage the voters to note these false statements. While Ataru may tire Yoda out quickly, Yoda should know enough about other forms of lightsaber combat and his opponent (as asserted earlier, Windu was one of Yoda's apprentices) to account for this.

While pro points out how the quick escape was fortunate, it is never asserted as to why it was fortunate, and therefore no conclusions can be drawn off of that statement.

Yoda's Past Feats

Pro holds that both are on equal footing as far as military rank is concerned.

Pro again asserts that Mace Windu is stronger in the Force than Yoda, however this is mos likely not so as previously stated with Yoda's feats of the Force with the landing craft.

Still, yet again, pro asserts points are dropped when they are not. It is never asserted as to whether or not Yoda needed the help, so such a point is moot.

Pro asserts a source which doesn't appear with regards to the assistance that the clones gave.

Pro holds that Mace Windu and Yoda are on equal footing for the escape of Order 66.

Mace Windu

Pro does not assert what the false premise was, nor state why the difference in time is relevant.

While pro attempts to defend the attack by Anakin as being outflanked, this clearly shows that pro's aforementioned statement that Mace Windu can easily outflank his opponents by using Swift Flank is weak at best.

While pro states that Mace Windu came closer to defeating Sidious than Yoda, in the end, both still failed at the task, and therefore are on equal footing for such a task.

While pro asserts that Yoda "should have done better in the open...", better implies that Yoda's fight against Sidious was relatively worse than a previous fight, even though no other fight between Sidious and Yoda is known to have occurred, and therefore it cannot be asserted that Yoda did better or worse against Sidious.

1. http://starwars.wikia.com... (In the "Chronological and political information" section under his picture)
2. http://starwars.wikia.com...
3. http://starwars.wikia.com...
4. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mace_Windu#Lightsaber_training
5. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dooku#Confrontation_with_the_Jedi
6. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Asajj_Ventress#Rusgosa
7. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yoda#Duel_in_the_Senate
8. Video #1 (4:30-4:45)
9. http://starwars.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 4
bsh1

Pro

Thanks Ninja for a truly wonderful, nerdy debate!

PRO's CASE

Con claims he addressed my case; but, by the sheer number of drops he made last round, we can see that he didn't.

1. Shatterpoint: Con asserts this ability is useful only when the opponent is unaware of it--incorrect. Con says that Yoda would guard his weak areas. Yet, this isn't how shatterpoint works. In every battle, someone is going to make a mistake or is going to have a weakness. It's impossible to be that flawless that you make no error at all. These mistakes are what shatterpoint shows. Consider, if Yoda momentarily held his blade a few millimeters too high, shatterpoint would make this instantly clear to Windu and he could take advantage of it. Normally, the force is not that precise--shatterpoint is specifically able to zero in and target things like that. Remember, Yoda lacks this ability.

2. If Windu called on this ability even once, he would be able to move far faster than Yoda, who doesn't have this power. He could land multiple blows before Yoda could move. In other words, Windu would only need to use it once, if he chose to use it.

3. Agreed.

4. I disagree here. Even Yoda must stop leaping sometimes. Look at his duel with Dooku [1]; Dooku got him in a saber lock and was able to deploy the force in the meantime to try to crush Anakin and Obi-Wan. If Windu got a similar opportunity, Yoda would likely be dead after the force grip seized him. Also, Con admits that Yoda "would certainly not utilize such a technique."

5. What Con's shown here is that Yoda can lift heavy objects--you have not proven that Windu could not do the same. Therefore, you cannot say that Yoda is stronger at telekinesis than Windu. However, we can look at the speed at which they can deploy telekinetic powers. Look at Yoda's encounter with Dooku and his lifting the X-wing on Dagobah. Yoda took time and focus to do both of those things, leaving him vulnerable to attack while he was concentrating. Windu could lift the AT-TE "with apparent ease." [2] Therefore, Windu can lift heavy objects faster than Yoda.

6. Con tries to preclude my arguments entirely here. In fact, another canon source writes, "In Dooku's later years, only Yoda and...Mace Windu, were considered equal to his skill with a lightsaber." [3] If Yoda = Dooku, and Dooku = Windu, then Windu = Yoda. Consequently, Windu and Yoda are relatively equals in lightsaber combat. This is true insofar as Yoda and Windu are separated only by Vaapad, a subset of one of the forms. Windu still has an edge here because of his more comprehensive knowledge.

7. Con says that Yoda's skills and acrobatic prowess would allow him to avoid these Vaapad techniques. Vaapad is meant to be used against skilled duelists [4] like Yoda, and isn't stymied by those factors. Vaapad also requires integration of the force, making these akin to force abilities. Just as know-how cannot prevent shatterpoint from working, such things cannot prevent assured strike and swift flank from working.

8. This is not about "tricking" someone. Yoda tricked a droid. Windu tricked no one; he just used brute force. Yoda has never displayed power on par with Windu--nor has Yoda shown an aptitude for being able to use hand-to-hand combat like Windu.

9. I explained in my last speech that Yoda was not about to defeat Dooku.

10. Con admits: "Yoda may not be a distinguished pilot." If this fair fight was an aerial one, or if it moved into the sky, Windu would have the advantage.

11. Con admits that there is no evidence that Yoda could wield two blades at once well, while Windu can. If Windu attacked him with two blades, Yoda would have two blades to parry with his single blade. Moreover, Ventress was not equal to Dooku or Yoda. Since Windu is equal to Dooku and Yoda, he is superior to Ventress. Windu would better resist Yoda's attempts to disarm him. Keep in mind, Yoda never disarmed Dooku.

12. Being a battle strategist is not the same as being a strategic duelist. A general looks at a map and analyzes decisions. In a duel, there is less time to think. If Yoda had been a more strategic thinker in his duels, maybe Dooku wouldn't have escaped.

13. Yoda had energy because he was using force valor. Yet, Yoda has to flee from Sidious even though he is alive and armed. Why would Yoda do that if he still had energy? Yoda could only keep up his performance momentarily--but he couldn't keep in up much longer. Moreover, Con is ignoring the wealth of canonical evidence that shows that Yoda would tire quickly.

14. Con almost makes my own point here: "Yoda would not have lived...if he allowed duels to go on past his energy reserves." Yoda could have fought Sidious longer had Yoda had more energy: "But, exhausted and holding onto a smooth edge, Yoda lost his grip and fell several stories to the Senate floor. Battered and weary, Yoda knew that re-engaging Sidious would be fruitless." [5] Regardless of why Yoda truly fled, it is clear that his energy had evaporated.

CON's CASE

-- Yoda's Force Powers --

Con DROPS the following: "Dooku fled because he knew reinforcements would arrive to assist Yoda. Notice, Dooku leaves seconds after Padme and her clones arrive. There is no evidence that Yoda alone would've defeated Dooku." Instead of responding to my new argument, Con just repeats an old one that doesn't address this alternate causality.

Con asserts that I did not cite any source showing loop was a Vaapad technique. In fact, I provided sources in round two; see: [1, 6] The loop is aggressive because it abides by the idea that the best defense is a good offense--defending oneself by flinging the energy back at one's attacker. Thus, Con's remarks are baseless and my arguments STAND. Therefore, extend that Vaapad isn't just a lightsaber technique and extend that Yoda wouldn't be skilled in it.

Con's analogy with the storm is faulty. The conscious decision isn't to go out into the storm, but rather to redirect the lightning. If you choose how to redirect the lightning, you're controlling it. Moreover, the canonical sources describe the loop as a skill--this implies that it is not a byproduct. [1, 6] And, while Windu can't control the weather (i.e. when Sidious flings lightning at him), he can consciously create a feedback loop to redirect it at Sidious. Yoda lacks this skill--he has to wait until after Dooku finishes before he can hurl the energy back at Dooku. Windu is doing all this simultaneously.

Con again DROPS that "'Windu has a greater range of [force] options' because he's more willing to use 'powerful, darker force techniques.'"

-- Yoda's Lightsaber Abilities --

Con CONCEDES that Windu has a more comprehensive mastery of lightsaber skills in that Windu is an expert in Vaapad, whereas Yoda is not.

Con did drop the points about Ataru insofar as he never challenged that it was tiring and hard to use in confined spaces. Con insists that Yoda is competent at other lightsaber forms--I agree. However, he is still psychologically more likely to use Ataru. Con never challenges that this is true; he DROPS it. Therefore, Yoda would likely use Ataru, further tiring him out.

Con seizes on the word "fortunate." That's not important--the important word is "quick;" it shows that Yoda was not expending energy for a long period of time. Con hasn't provided evidence of how Yoda could withstand a lengthy duel.

-- Yoda's Past Feats --

Con never challenges that both Windu and Yoda were generals or defends his hailfire droid example. They're DROPPED.

Whether or not Yoda needed the help is immaterial. The fact is that he did have it--therefore, we will never know if Yoda could've gone it alone (and without a lightsaber). Whereas, with Windu, we do know that he could do it alone (and without a lightsaber) from the example I provided. We should prefer clear evidence re: Windu over vague evidence re: Yoda.

The video clearly showed clones assisting Yoda by causing a rock formation to fall on the droids. Con is flat out wrong when he says my source doesn't prove the clones helped.

Con is summarizing my position, not rebutting it. It's DROPPED; extend my points re: Windu and Order 66.

-- Mace Windu --

The false premise was "that Windu lost to Skywalker." Windu, in fact, lost to Sidious and Skywalker. Had Windu faced Skywalker 1-on-1, Windu would have defeated him--Windu is more skilled.

Con then tries to say that Windu can't out outflank his enemies. However, Anakin walked in ex post facto. Windu didn't know Anakin was his enemy until seconds before Anakin struck.

Con says, "pro states that Windu came closer to defeating Sidious than Yoda, in the end, both still failed." Con never actually contests that Windu came closer. It's DROPPED.

Con misconstrues "better." Yoda should have done better than he did.

VOTING ISSUES

Windu would win because:

1. Shatterpoint would help him exploit Yoda's weaknesses

2. Windu's force speed would let him land multiple blows before Yoda could move

3. Windu can use force grip unlike Yoda

4. Windu can deploy telekinesis faster

5. Windu can use two blades unlike Yoda

6. Windu is better at hand-to-hand

7. Windu is the better pilot

8. Windu is a great strategist while dueling

9. Windu can use darker, more powerful force abilities than Yoda

10. Windu came closer to offing Sidious

11. Windu has a more complete mastery of lightsaber skills

12. Vaapad lets Windu use Swift Flank, Assured Strike, and the loop--Yoda can't.

13. Yoda would tire out quickly; if Windu could drag it out (it seems like he could) Windu would get the advantage


SOURCES

1 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
2 - The Video (Dooku). 4:30-4:45
3 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
4 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
5 - http://starwars.wikia.com...
6 - http://starwars.wikia.com...

Thanks! VOTE PRO!
themohawkninja

Con

Pro's Case

Pro continues to assert that points were dropped when it was already showed that no points were dropped.

1. While pro asserts that Mace Windu would be able to detect such a weakness, the question remains of whether or not he could take advantage of this. Pro asserts that if Yoda held his lightsaber blade even a few millimeters too high, Mace Windu could take advantage of it. However, since (as pro mentions) no fighter is perfect, Yoda might not be able to hold a blade to a precision of a few millimeters (just try holding a sword perfectly still. It's very hard), and therefore such minute imprecisions in Yoda's stance could render such use of the Shatterpoint ability useless in many situations.

2. Pro makes the assumption that Mace Windu could land multiple blows before Yoda could move. Due to the lack of times when both Jedi have fought each other, such a statement is no more then an assumption. We can not deduce whether or not this is even a possibility given the lack of evidence.

3. Pro contends that both Jedi are equal with the use of the Force Wave.

4. Just as it can be said that Yoda's acrobatics must seize, this is due to the same limitations that both Jedi have: energy. Fighting will drain each Jedi of energy, and both Jedi must stop eventually. Judging from the extensive use of acrobatics by Yoda, it could seem as though Yoda may have the greater level of energy.

5. While pro compares the retrieval of the X-wing with the lifting of the AT-TE, he doesn't take into account the fact that the X-wing was buried under mud and water and could have had various plant life wrapped around components, making such a retrieval much more difficult than just lifting an X-wing on dry ground.

6. Pro admits that Yoda and Mace Windu are equally matched by citing a comparison between Count Dooku and Yoda, and Count Dooku and Mace Windu. The only difference that he states is due to Mace Windu knowing more about a lightsaber form than Yoda. As has been asserted before, increased knowledge of something is not always an advantage.

7. Pro commits and existential logical fallacy by asserted that a universal premise (The use of Vaapad being akin to Force abilities) has a specific conclusion (therefore Vaapad can counter Yoda's Force assisted acrobatics).

8. It was never mentioned that anyone was tricked in the last round for this point. Secondly, as shown by the use of the Force against two large landing craft, Yoda has displayed power on par, if not greater than Mace Windu.

9. The point wasn't that Yoda was about to defeat Dooku, it was that Dooku felt that he was about to be defeated by Yoda. It was that Dooku felt that he was going to lose the battle, not that Yoda was going to win.

10. If such a battle moved to the sky, I believe that such an act might fall under the definition of a "special advantage" as outlined by the definition of what isn't a fair fight.

11. Again, pro asserts an existential fallacy by asserting that the universal premise (Mace Windu is superior to Asajj Ventress) has a particular conclusion (Mace Windu would better resist disarming attempts by Yoda).

12. Just as a general looks at a map and analyzes decisions, so to must a duelist look at his opponents moves and analyze strategies for attack and defense.

13. Pro fails to assert evidence that Yoda used Force Valor.

14. Escape does not mean defeat. In a duel, Yoda could easily escape due to his explosive use of acrobatics, hide and recover for a short time before re-engaging Mace Windu, just as Count Dooku escaped a confrontation with Yoda.

Yoda's Force Powers

Still pro insists on asserting dropped points, when the point remains that Dooku felt that he was going to be defeated, and therefore left the fight.

While pro asserts that sources were used, the only mention of a superconducting loop as part of Vaapad is this: "The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent.". It makes no mention of the turning Sith lighting into a superconducting loop, but rather seems to use the term as a metaphor.

Pro re-asserts that the sources state that the Vaapad technique creates the loop of superconductivity, and not that it was just a metaphor as asserted above.

Lastly, pro once again falsely accuses me of dropping points even though pro did not address that point in the last round.

Yoda's Lightsaber Abilities

Pro continues to assert that energy is a key factor, even though pro neglects that escape is always a possibility as shown by Count Dooku.

Yoda's Past Feats

Pro still falsely accusing me of dropping points, even though (A) I met that point, and (B) as con, while it is my job to prove victory, proving a non-defeat is just as valid as it discredits Mace Windu's ability to win.

Pro contends that Mace Windu failed to react within a span on multiple seconds to save his own limbs (and his life for that matter).

Still... yet again... pro falsely accuses me of dropping points. As pro shows, I addressed the point, and therefore pro self-refutes his own statement.

Voting Issues

Yoda would defeat Mace Windu in a fair fight because...

1. Yoda's strength in the Force is unmatched by Mace Windu

2. Yoda's acrobatics are unmatched by Windu

3. Yoda lived to die of old age, unlike Mace Windu who was murdered.

4. Yoda was Mace Windu's master, and therefore taught, and henceforth knows many, of not most of Mace Windu's moves.

5. On many other grounds, both duelists are equal in strategy accomplishments in life, and therefore the above reasons put Yoda as the superior duelist.

NOTE: Pro's point #4 in voting issues is never brought up in the debate, and therefore is against the rules, as no new arguments were to be used in the last round.

VOTE CON IN TODAY'S DEBATE.

I thank my opponent for such a nerdy and informative debate, and I thank the judges for having to read all of this.
Debate Round No. 5
23 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
I do have to say that this was by far the best debate I have reviewed and voted on over the past 3 weeks, and I am very grateful to have had the opportunity to read it. I think both debaters proved themselves and their debating abilities well! I really hope no one takes my feedback in a negative way, as the entire point of this is to offer feedback for future improvement. Though honestly, I don"t expect perfection, I think both debaters were utterly fantastic. Good luck in the remainder of the voting period, and congratulations once again on putting forth a great debate!
Posted by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
So for my RFD, I am going to base it on who was able to convince me of their side more, and I feel that was pro. The main reason, was that Con didn"t pick up on some of the major problems in Pro"s case that could have effectively made his arguments irrelevant. Con cited examples of Yoda"s physical ability in other era"s of time, but for some reason didn"t directly address what should have been an obvious issue of "what time period are they fighting in?". I also wished I would have seen some arguments to counter the age argument, about how knowledge and wisdom has accrued over the 700+ years of age Yoda had required. The point is there was many angles of debate that could have thrown this debate back in sway for the Con, but as it stood Pro had many more arguments that favored his position. Going over each individual contention, I feel Pro did a better job of not only playing up Windu, but also demonstrating how Windu would win the fight over Yoda in many different situations. The fact that Con essentially ceded the age/ability argument (in a non intended way), allowed this to be a brutal slaughter from Pro. Comparing and analyzing every single point in this debate, I couldn"t see how Yoda could match up to Windu. Even in the historical references, the challenges faced and overcome by Windu seemed far more devastating and proving of his true ability. Comparing powers, stats, and abilities side by side, the ones outlined by Pro were described to be more effective, and I have a hard time imagining that Yoda could beat windu in a fair fight. Thus I give Pro the convincing arguments point.
Posted by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
RFD
From reading the rest of the rebuttals, I paid close attention to what areas the debaters were focusing on. The convincing argument title here is not appropriate, as I think both debaters were able to convince me of their positions. I looked past the claims of dropped arguments because they didn"t seem as serious to me as Pro made them seem or I didn"t really understand where the impact was behind the dropped points because they weren"t properly explained. This was one part where you can see Bsh1"s LD debater side coming into play. However even with LD, I think it is important that if a debater is going to point out dropped points, to also explain how such points were such an influencing factor to the debate, that they threw the debate out of proportion from not being argued. I was also able to read into ninja"s response and see the rebuttal as just being mis-understood/construed. Also because of the many arguments used in this debate, I didn"t see a couple small points as something to throw the debate in Pro"s favor over.
Posted by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
CON
First off, thank you for formatting your round similar to the Pro"s, it made things slightly easier.
Yoda"s Force Abilities
I think the final excerpt of this argument was the best utilized argument here. Con showed an instance where Yoda had a physical advantage over an opponent, an advantage that when used against Windu in previous scenarios also proved to be effective. It is then that I am able to assume that if such ability was used against Windu in said fight, that the ability would take an effect.
Great counter from the Con!"
Yoda"s lightsaber Skills
Con did a great job of pointing out Yoda"s skills with a saber, but this point is almost null unless Con can prove how these skills are superior to windu"s, as he did in the above point. This was the main thing I noticed lacking from this argument.
Yoda"s History
My comments here would be much the same as they were with Pro"s. They demonstrated Yoda"s basic fighting experience and history, which do well for demonstrating his ability.
Mace Windu
I really don"t think this point was effective for a couple of reasons. 1. Dying in action seems like a bit more of a feat than dying alone in a suffering galaxy as Yoda did. If anything this only hurts Yoda"s Reputation. 2. This argument lacked specifics of Windu"s weaknesses that Yoda supposedly contain. With that said, how do we know if Yoda wasn"t in the same predicament, he wouldn"t have died as well?
Posted by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
Windu's Past Feats
After reading this segment, I have to say that I was impressed with the amount of research and detail that went into playing up Mace Windu. This argument was effective in outlining occurences where Mace Windu was given extreme challenges that he overcame, in which Yoda himself had more trouble with. This argument aided the Pro in that is shows instances where Mace used the abilities shown above to win battles, which shows how they might come in handy against yoda in battle.
Yoda
I briefly gave an opinion on the same potential problem here, as I did earlier. The debate rules didn"t really set a precedent to what timeframe these individuals would be fighting. For example I remember laughing hysterically when Yoda was jumping around, doing flips and tricks, during the final battle in the third Star wars movie. The main problem you will likely encounter, is what point in time this fight would be taking place. Pro seems content on assuming the fight would take place in the time just before Yoda"s passing. Pro"s refusal to acknowledge this, is something I can definitely see being brought up and even used against him. If it is not, then again, I will let this point go through.
Posted by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
The final suggestion I had for this argument, would be that Pro cites some examples that would show how Yoda"s lack of containing the shatter point ability, might affect him in battle. An argument outlining how the fight might affect Yoda negatively without this ability. Maybe draw a picture for what Yoda might fall into, based on occurrences from the movies.
Overall, this was a pretty decent argument.
Windu"s Light Saber Abilities
This point contained a little more of what I felt the last one was missing, as far as demonstrating how certain techniques complimented each other. The problems I saw with this point were so minor, that I am not going to mention them, because it detracts from the purpose of giving feedback. Overall it was a decent point, and I look forward to seeing what the opposition has to say.
Posted by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
Windu"s Force abilities
This contention yielded plenty of great arguments and support for Mace Windu, with excellent sources to back them up. As a whole, I think this was a pretty effective argument. I will still offer advice on what I think could have been done to better this point, though I hope Pro doesn"t get the impression that I think this point was in-effective.
The first thing I would remove is the "probably" from this statement "Yoda's telekinetic ability is probably inferior to Windu's". You provided 3 great examples that evidence this, so more confidence in this argument would have been sufficient. Leaving probably in there, leaves the argument open for attack from your opponent. Also I don"t know if it is possible based on any limited evidence star wars reference guides may have, but I might have looked for sources demonstrating how the AT would be heavier than the x-wing. Outside of that, I actually thought that was a pretty great point. One potential problem I saw with this argument was the time frame. The movie where Yoda struggled with the x-wing (and later even died), I believe took place a considerable time after other events in the star wars trilogy that demonstrated a bigger prowess. For example in the third movie (I believe), Yoda demonstrated a more capable fighting standard. I think this potential problem could have been avoided if Pro had outlined in the opening round whether or not both individuals would be fighting at their peak physical states of being or not. However whether this argument will be counted in the RFD as effective or not, will ultimate depend on whether the Con chooses to bring up this fact or not.
Posted by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
Windu"s Force abilities
This contention yielded plenty of great arguments and support for Mace Windu, with excellent sources to back them up. As a whole, I think this was a pretty effective argument. I will still offer advice on what I think could have been done to better this point, though I hope Pro doesn"t get the impression that I think this point was in-effective.
The first thing I would remove is the "probably" from this statement "Yoda's telekinetic ability is probably inferior to Windu's". You provided 3 great examples that evidence this, so more confidence in this argument would have been sufficient. Leaving probably in there, leaves the argument open for attack from your opponent. Also I don"t know if it is possible based on any limited evidence star wars reference guides may have, but I might have looked for sources demonstrating how the AT would be heavier than the x-wing. Outside of that, I actually thought that was a pretty great point. One potential problem I saw with this argument was the time frame. The movie where Yoda struggled with the x-wing (and later even died), I believe took place a considerable time after other events in the star wars trilogy that demonstrated a bigger prowess. For example in the third movie (I believe), Yoda demonstrated a more capable fighting standard. I think this potential problem could have been avoided if Pro had outlined in the opening round whether or not both individuals would be fighting at their peak physical states of being or not. However whether this argument will be counted in the RFD as effective or not, will ultimate depend on whether the Con chooses to bring up this fact or not.
Posted by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
RFD on "In a fair fight, Mace Windu would likely defeat Yoda."
I will start by giving my thoughts on both debaters individual case"s offering specific feedback where necessary, and will give my RFD on who I think did the better job arguing and getting there point across.
Case analysis
PRO
A brief mention, from reading round 1 I noticed a small contradiction in one of the rules. I don"t know if it was picked up on yet. Pro said R5 is for rebuttals and crystallization, while simultaneously saying that there are no new responses. I may have just mis-understood this, but if I see rebuttals from Con in R5 I will not judge it against him, based on this slight contradiction. Onto the R2 case.
Posted by bsh1 3 years ago
bsh1
@TUF - if you've seen the prequel Star Wars movies, you should have enough background knowledge to vote.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Lordgrae 3 years ago
Lordgrae
bsh1themohawkninjaTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Like many people who never read the books and only watched the movies, I naturally assumed Yoda was better, simply because he was more fun to play with in the lego star wars games. This has changed my opinion. Otherwise, both had good conduct, and spelling and grammar were passable for each. Both cited everything, so neither get points for that, but bsh1 had the better opening arguments and by far the superior rebuttals of themohawkninja's points. bsh1's use of clips and known events make his arguments understandable and well thought out. Both of the debaters did an excellent job.
Vote Placed by TUF 3 years ago
TUF
bsh1themohawkninjaTied
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Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments
Vote Placed by Josh_b 3 years ago
Josh_b
bsh1themohawkninjaTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I have never considered a debate of this nature before in my life. After reading this debate, I found that Mace Windu was more likely to convert to the dark side than Yoda. I think this was a hidden point of contention during the debate. It however, the point that matters. Although Yoda is a great tactician, Windu's physical abilities far out weigh Yoda's. Even though Yoda was not killed by Anikin/Vader, the result was Yoda's indefinite hiding. The combination of these, after reading the debate, leads me to believe that Windu would fight to resolve and Yoda would fight to regress. Con did an excellent job, but pro will earn my vote in this round.
Vote Placed by tylergraham95 3 years ago
tylergraham95
bsh1themohawkninjaTied
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Reasons for voting decision: EXCELLENT DEBATE! RFD in the comments.