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jakabus
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The Contender
PepePopo2012
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Explanation for energy in relation to the physical realm.

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Started: 4/24/2016 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 144 times Debate No: 90144
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jakabus

Pro

If we use water for this analogy. To represent energy as well as its own liquid state. Ice to represent it's own physical state as well as all the 3 physical states (solid, liquid and gas) I'm using water for the example so it's liquid state will represent energy even though I will refer to it as water. Steam will represent the non-physical or metaphysical. Water made up of 2 parts hydrogen and oxygen. Water and ice represent energy and matta while steam (oxygen separation) will represent the conscience or spiritual realm.

Using the above analogy settings il try an explain it's basis of rationale and distinguish physical concepts (sight, pain, objects) intellectual concepts (time, maths, concepts) and concepts that engage the conscience (imagination, speech, emotion)

You may have noticed I used time as an example of an intellectual concept. People say that it's a dimension, I say it's a tool of measurement. Time is used to measure velocity and velocity is used to measure movement. The time taken from begining to finish. E=mc^2 energy = mass x the speed of light ^2. Our 24hr day is made up out of relativity to the speed of light. 8 min for the sun light from the sun (start point) to reach earth (finish point) Time is not made up of any physical property except the figure that acknowledges time. The only physical component is the observer of time, one who has the ability to understand & comprehend. It requires conscienceness to be observed. With out a form of conscience interjection time and space would become unknown, unexplained and un-noticed. Since it is made from an intellectual idea I will put time under the steam subject.

Sight is a physical concept made from light although it's has no tangible matta. We can't physically grab or hold a sight or an image. We can however pause on an image and cling on to a vision in a metaphysical sense. Although it does need a physical observer and an object to behold (ice) So the energy in the act of seeing (water) a ball (ice) bounce (water and ice)

Water that's acceded it's boiling point becomes a supper heated vapour known as steam. No longer tangible like water or ice. It's becomes like the wind. We can feel it's pressure and observe it's effects. We can no longer scoop it up or force it to cease. We can contain it but can not hold it still or it will condense back into a liquid. We can manuver it but we can't mold it. It's totally formless unlike a cloud. A cloud is sort of like a saturated vapour state. Inbetween a gas and a liquid. We could refer to this state as a saturated state or vapour. Not quite a gas nor a liquid or a solid. Like a fire or jelly.

Ice (represents all that can be seen & felt... It represents the physical realm) ice loses its heat energy but creates it's own compact energy. I think a secret to understanding gravity lies with the condensation of water to ice. Why does water expand before it reaches its frozen point? does water make room to allow for its transfer from heat energy to compacting force? Molecules condense when you remove the heat energy but water starts to expand 4 degrees above frozen? Why? I think gravity doesn't exist but it's descriptive effect does.

The big bang would have required energy to exist. Either to release, transfer or create everything that there is today. I've read the early universe was like a molten metabolic soup of swirling gases. I would agree that the invention of the universe would be intense. Just like water I'd imagine anything if anything would have come about as a gas state first. Condensing into its liquid state. Further condensing into a solid state. So would it be strange to suggest that gas (steam) came from water there for water came gas. What if the big bang released energy (water) first? Water needed to be present to create the steam. And then the condensation (cooling period) to solid objects (ice) could occure.

The hydrogen atom is made up of a neucleolus (which is made from a proton and a neutron) with an electron rotating around the neucleolus. What if gas and energy where always at the begining and created the physical realm we observe today?

I know my theory needs a lot of work and careful attention. It's got many problems but I really feel like I'm onto something here. I hope you could gather some sense out of this.
PepePopo2012

Con

Hi, since you didn't explicitly post any affirmation nor negation I assume you want to talk about your theory. First I appreciate the fact you think so deeply about the Universe, its beginning, what matter, energy and consciousness are, but I, as a future scientist, would highly appreciate if you didn't use scientific terms or analogies. You need a lot of knowledge to talk about those thing and if you don't posses such knowledge to talk about them whit people who also not familiar with the scientific terminology may be confusing and convincing, but it won't be true. To use scientific terminology in non-scientific context produce confusion, for example if a child wanted to learn about science and has heard theories as yours, may enter into the science realm with poor concepts of energy, matter, etc. I'm not disproving or insulting your theory, I'm just asking you gently to use different terminology and different analogies instead of scientific ones.
I will now proceed to show you what mistakes have you made in the scientific terms you used.
First, in water gas state, "steam" as you called it, the oxygen doesn't separate at all, if it did it wouldn't be called "water vapor" since it wouldn't be water anymore. The water molecule is formed, as you said, by two hydrogen atoms bond to the oxygen atom. If you change that composition water would lose it chemical identity and it would become something else. Also to remove only the oxygen from the water molecule requires monstrous amounts of energy.
You said time is not a made up of any physical property. But it is, the direction of time for example if given by the phenomena know as entropy. The second law of thermodynamics states entropy in the Universe must always grow, what does that mean? In layman's terms it means that the arrow of time is given by a "the most probable state". For example, imagine you had a bunch of little balls in box, let's say 10 balls that are standing still and 10 balls bouncing at very high speed, now let's allow the fast balls to transfer energy to the other balls by colliding with them. You will eventually have 20 balls with a lot of different speeds, but those speed will be distributed in a special way, not in any random way like for example 1 ball going super fast and the other 19 standing still. There will be some balls going slow, others going really fast but a bunch of ball going more or less in a medium range of speed. We say then that the energy (kinetic energy in this example) has been spread through the box containing the balls. This example is exactly what happens when you have a cup of hot coffee in a room, you can imagine that the hotter something is, the faster it molecules moves (technically they contain bigger amounts of medium kinetic energy). The arrow of time will point to the temperature in the room+coffee being one temperature in the end, you will never see the inverse process happening, i.e having a room and a coffee cup at the same temperature and coming back after 1 hr to find that now your coffee cup is hotter. By this I have shown you time is independent of the observer but dependent of "how spread energy is through space".
"People" (actually scientist who know about general relativity) saying time is a dimension refer to mathematical concepts which are unfamiliar for you. They refer to space and time to behave as a four dimensional mathematical space. I'm not sure what do you understand by "dimension" but I'm sure it's not its mathematical definition.
This is just a little point, boiled water is just water vapor, not super heated thingy. Yet water vapor it's tangible, you said it yourself "we can feel it's pressure and observe its effects". Also a saturated state and vapor are really different things!! It is hard to explain such advanced concepts to someone who's not familiar with basic concepts and the mathematics behind those concepts, but I'll try anyways. A saturated state usually needs at least two substances, for example water and salt. The saturation point it is reached when you can no longer add salt without making it precipitate. Vapor is just what you call the state where the strength between the molecules can no longer hold them together because you've made a huge input of energy in the system (remember: molecule it is a bunch of atoms put together, the atoms in water vapor still together but it is the molecules which are separated).
I'm not sure what you meant by "compact energy" but one of the biggest and unbreakable rules from the Universe it is the conservation of energy, which stated that in an isolated system energy remains constant, that's it "it can be created or destroyed". There are two things which make any process possible, entropy which I explain you before and the fact that an isolated system tries to minimize it's energy. By the way, by isolated system I mean a part of the entire Universe which you have somehow isolated to study it, so this little part of the universe shouldn't be able to transfer any matter or energy with the surroundings, such thing it is impossible to achieve, but we can be very close to it. A simple and familiar example for you would be a closed thermos flask. A thermos flask doesn't exchange matter with its surroundings, which is easy to see since you can fill it with hot water and the water will stay in it, but also it doesn't exchange energy, how can this be seen? Well if you put hot water in it, it will be hot after 1 hr while if you let hot water in a cup of tea outside, after 1 hr will be colder. In a perfect thermos flask the water would stay hot forever in it, of course that's not what happens in real life because a thermos flask is not a perfect isolated system, but you get the idea. Anyways, in an isolated system energy must be conserved, there's a little must know here. Solid state has less energy than water state, how can we see this? Remember I told you temperature and kinetic energy "energy due to speed" are related? Well the lower the temperature is, the lower the kinetic energy is, so the lower "the speed of molecules is". So if they move slowly, the interaction between the molecules beats the energy in the surroundings and make molecules stick together, and therefore you have achieve the solid state were all the molecules are stuck together, just vibrating. The "why water expand 4 degrees above frozen point" it is an EXCELLENT question! But it has nothing to do with gravity, instead it has to do with the water molecule shape, since I'm running out of characters and also I'd need a drawing to show you why I'd leave you this lovely video
https://www.youtube.com...
The Big Bang Theory doesn't explain how the Universe came to existence, but instead describes the very early state of the Universe. So it just works out what happen with all of the energy which was already there, it doesn't say from where everything came.
And just a little mistake, hydrogen is made up of one proton and one electron, the one that has also one neutron it's called "deuterium" and it's a hydrogen isotope (isotope is just the fancy word to say "it has the same number of proton but a different number of neutrons).

Speculation to create new theories is always a great thing to do!! You're doing pretty well but I highly recommend you to study physics if you want a deeper understanding of the Universe, or neurology if you want a deeper understanding of consciousness. You can confirm (or disproof) your hypothesis only by testing them, so go ahead! Study hard, learn a lot and give it a try to all of your hypothesis!
Debate Round No. 1
jakabus

Pro

jakabus forfeited this round.
PepePopo2012

Con

I assume you've been busy so I will add nothing else now.
Debate Round No. 2
jakabus

Pro

jakabus forfeited this round.
PepePopo2012

Con

PepePopo2012 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
jakabus

Pro

jakabus forfeited this round.
PepePopo2012

Con

PepePopo2012 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
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