The Instigator
Tatarize
Con (against)
Winning
67 Points
The Contender
shwayze
Pro (for)
Losing
14 Points

Extreme danger in legalizing same-sex marriage in society

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Started: 2/10/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,067 times Debate No: 2532
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (130)
Votes (23)

 

Tatarize

Con

You asked in,
http://www.debate.org... comments...

"do people not see the extreme danger in legalizing same-sex marriage in society?"

-- I contend that there is nothing to see. I contend that there is no danger to legalizing same-sex marriage.

Further, there is much benefit to giving people equal rights under the law. The danger is in not giving people equal rights: it causes unrest.
shwayze

Pro

show me a gene in the human body that shows that people are born gay. It's funny because scientists and so many liberals have been trying so hard to prove that humans are born gay, yet they have no definitive answer. If there is a gene that is found that shows gays are born that way, then let's celebrate. I have nothing against gays. They are for the most part nice people. I have a serious problem with gay marriage though. If gay marriage is allowed, what is next? Humans and animals getting married? Triad marriages? Man-boy marriages? And if you think these claims are absurd, that is what everyone 50 years ago was saying about gay marriage and how ridiculous it was. AND LOOK! we now have gay marriages in some states....what's next?

By allowing gay marriage, you are saying that marriage is merely about sexual preference. If so, why shouldn't I be allowed to marry a horse or two wives?
Debate Round No. 1
Tatarize

Con

I do not know of any gene which makes people gay or more likely to be gay. Identical twins are more likely to share sexual orientation than fraternal twins. Fraternal twins are more likely to share sexual orientation than are siblings. Siblings more likely than randomly distributed individuals. Further, the youngest male born seems to have a few extra percent chance of being gay, even if one adjusts for having older males in the family. These are all pretty strong evidence that there are developmental as well as genetic factors.

Similar to being left handed or situs inversus, there doesn't seem to be a monogenetic trait which leads to homosexuality. Which is far from saying that homosexuality is not inborn. In fact, studies have shown that homosexuals attraction parts of their brain works like those of females, prior to the conscious thought. Further, I personally never decided to be straight. I just feel sexually attracted to women. I see no reason to conclude that sexual attraction isn't inborn.

It's common to find brains wired up to be attracted to men, typically these brains belong to women but there's nothing exacting about human development. Gender identity, gender attraction, and even genital formation have shown a good amount of ability to do pretty much whatever. You only need it to work some of the time to propagate the species. Also, there's some speculation that homosexuals help their nieces and nephews enough to make the trade off worthwhile. In some areas having a rich uncle who never married could allow for genetically related individuals from the family to succeed. So homosexuality may not be evolutionarily helpful for the individual but rather helpful to the larger family and matriarch of the family. The theory seems tenuous, but does make a good amount of sense.

However, all of that aside, what does it matter why a person is gay? If somebody were gay for the fun of it, that would still not warrant restricting their right to marriage. Why they are gay doesn't matter one jot. You have the right to enter into a legally binding contract with another person. If you want to marry the person you love, it is not the right of the state to restrict that.

Slippery slope arguments are fallacies unless you can really show that there is something to fear. Humans are animals, so humans marry animals all the time. However, for the most part there's a real argument against marrying someone/something that doesn't have the ability to consent. A marriage is a contract between two people of sound mind and body who enter into an arrangement which is recognized by the state and conveys certain rights to the other person. Boys and horses don't really have the ability to enter into contracts because they aren't able to consent legally.

As for polygamy, there's a real argument there. I don't see anything wrong with such a contract if everybody involved is fully aware of the situation. The main objection to polygamy is that it often is implemented as polygyny and involves teenage girls being divvied up by church elders. That obviously fails, but additional spouses isn't by default objectionable and would be up to debate.

The line is drawn at consenting adults. If rights are offered to somebody they must be offered to everybody. As far as the state is concerned marriage is a contract and the state has no right to restrict who can enter into a contract and who cannot.

Yes, I believe those claims are absurd and they are exactly what people were saying about interracial marriage 50 years ago.

What's next? I'd assume a complete set of equal rights regardless of sexual orientation, and no special privileges for anybody.

Your horse has no ability to agree to a marriage. This is perhaps the dumbest argument against gay marriage. Most of the arguments just come down to religion. If the only arguments against something are religious arguments, then that is simply saying that there are no good arguments for something.
shwayze

Pro

you literally just wasted 5 minutes of my life reading that garbage.

"I do not know of any gene which makes people gay or more likely to be gay. Identical twins are more likely to share sexual orientation than fraternal twins. Fraternal twins are more likely to share sexual orientation than are siblings. Siblings more likely than randomly distributed individuals. Further, the youngest male born seems to have a few extra percent chance of being gay, even if one adjusts for having older males in the family. These are all pretty strong evidence that there are developmental as well as genetic factors."

And circle gets the square.

"Further, I personally never decided to be straight. I just feel sexually attracted to women. I see no reason to conclude that sexual attraction isn't inborn."

hmmmmm maybe that's the way God created us. What a revolutionary thought.

"In some areas having a rich uncle who never married could allow for genetically related individuals from the family to succeed."

Be honest, were you snorting heroin or tripping on acid when you wrote this?

"If you want to marry the person you love, it is not the right of the state to restrict that."

Men can't marry boys (yet)...thats a restriction right there.

Please tell me you dont think polygamy would be ok in society.

"If rights are offered to somebody they must be offered to everybody."

Marriage is not a right.

What's next? The destruction of the family unit and society as we see it today.
Debate Round No. 2
Tatarize

Con

Did I miss something or did you fail to explain, again, why same sex marriage is a danger to society.

You could claim that IVF leads to clone armies but that's not an argument against IVF it's an argument against clone armies.

Okay, we keep constant vigilance against man-horse marriage. I'll go ahead and say you've made an argument (though I see no evidence that you even established the point) that man-horse marriage will cause the end of society. Why then should the state deny the rights of marriage to individuals who fully understand what they're doing and love each other?

You've never come remotely close to establishing any danger whatsoever here.

Marriage is, in fact, a right as noted in the Supreme Court decision of Skinner v. State of Oklahoma.

No equality doesn't lead to the downfall of civilization. The same was argued during Loving v. Virgina which struck down interracial marriage. It didn't lead to the downfall of anything.
shwayze

Pro

I feel like I'm talking to a second grader. Gay marriage will destroy the family unit, which is the cornerstone of American civilization. If you cant comprehend that, go back to kindergarten.
Debate Round No. 3
130 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 41 through 50 records.
Posted by Novan_Leon 5 years ago
Novan_Leon
YOU:
There are few things as devastating as a good example. A 13 year old girl is being raped and then murdered (if not now, soon). The Problem of Evil notes that an all-powerful being could stop this vile act and an all-good being *WOULD* stop this vile act. If there existed an all-powerful and all-good being then this would not occur. Therefore, the rape of a little girl (even once in a million years) casts doubt on the existence of a benevolent God.

ME:
Your view of morality is exceedingly narrow and limited.

Again, you're approaching the problem from the point of view that God must conform to our own innate sense of morality (1st portion of the dilemma). You're assuming part #1 is correct even before you begin to consider part #2. If God's actions were inherently moral (2nd portion of the dilemma), obviously this would mean that He would NOT need to save the 13 year old girl in order to be a moral God, therefore your moral judgement is incorrect. What is your reason for saying that an all-powerful all-good being *WOULD* stop a 13 year old girl from being raped? Logically, you have no sound basis on which to make this claim.

Besides, even if your argument were a sound one, our government imprisons and puts people to death. If I did both of these things, would it be immoral? Why is it moral if some people do it and others don't? Why should we consider an all-powerful creator who obviously knows more than we do any differently in respect to morality?

I'm amazed you can't see the flaws in your own argument given all the time we're spending on it. If what is moral is moral because it is commanded by God, then God is good and it's logically impossible for him to be immoral. Your point of view is that God must conform to our own innate moral rules and because God isn't doing so, he can't exist. Am I missing something? If so, please enlighten me.
Posted by Tatarize 5 years ago
Tatarize
>>You are basing your entire line of reasoning on the fact that you know slavery is immoral.

Yes. I am.

Is slavery immoral?
Posted by Tatarize 5 years ago
Tatarize
YOU:
If this is true, then all of this is a misunderstanding.

ME:
If it is any consolation, your poor arguments and my inability to see how or where your arguments could be strengthened are actually bringing me around to the opinion you initially accused me of endorsing. However, in context of my statements "good reasons" and "bad things" seem remarkably easy to understand. I don't believe there are "correct reasons" to believe something, so I would never use that terminology.

- Jews killed Jesus (assuming Jesus existed)
- The majority of criminals are African American
- Some people are smarter than others
- Homosexual activity has a greater protential for AIDS than heterosexual activity
* I have lumped these together because they all suffer the same categorical flaw: they don't themselves have bad consequences. I'm pretty sure you mean that they feed into antisemitism, racism, elitism, and homophobia. However, these are disparate "facts" used via bad logic to support bad beliefs which, in turn, results in bad consequences. -- These are not, in themselves, wrong beliefs.

- Killing an opponent eliminates competition
* That's true. There's a number of benefits to killing people. The benefits do not outweigh the costs, and if they did, wouldn't that be justified? For example, if killing Hitler in 1932 was "worth it" -- could you really show the bad consequence of the beliefs?

- If you speak a lie often enough, people will begin to believe it
* This, by definition, involves speaking lies. Lies are not true.

Examples of bad reasons yielding good results are mindblowingly moot. You could get those same results with for good reasons.

I am overly underwhelmed by your examples, did you not understand the request or are you scraping the bottom of the barrel?
Posted by Tatarize 5 years ago
Tatarize
I didn't bring up the nonexistence of God. I was discussing morality and made the point that morality is not and cannot be externally dictated. "God's gunna get you if you do bad things!" does not answer the question why those things are "bad", nor does "God says they're bad" work as an answer. If God said clearly bad things are good, we'd spot that instantaneously, and be more likely to doubt the dictum than to suppose morality of an immoral act.

You suggest that the Problem of Evil is circular. I'm sorry? No. You offer a theodicy, not evidence of circular arguments. The argument has a premise you disagree with.

There are few things as devastating as a good example. A 13 year old girl is being raped and then murdered (if not now, soon). The Problem of Evil notes that an all-powerful being could stop this vile act and an all-good being *WOULD* stop this vile act. If there existed an all-powerful and all-good being then this would not occur. Therefore, the rape of a little girl (even once in a million years) casts doubt on the existence of a benevolent God.

How does your theodicy fair in this situation?

It would be moral for me to stop this act from going on, but god doesn't have to do anything. God is amoral and need not care if a quarter million people drown in tsunami, or 11 million are lead to Nazi death camps, or a little girl is brutally violated. You are simply arguing that God is not, himself, good. God can sanction rape, genocide, and murder.

You dispute premise 1.
"The Christian's claim their God is moral"

-- The argument is against an all-good all-powerful God. If you say your God isn't good, then the argument doesn't apply. Your God can go ahead sanction any genocide, condone any evil, and demand atrocities because your God isn't an "all-good" God. Your conclusions are in error, they are not that god is immoral or non-existent, rather God is not moral or not all powerful. Non-existence could be a reason why this is the case.
Posted by Novan_Leon 5 years ago
Novan_Leon
YOU:
You just contradicted yourself. A higher power need not exist to have people believe in it, therefore, by your own admission, a higher power is NOT needed for #1 to work. Similarly, the robot which will eat my head need not actually exist in order for me to follow orders.

ME:
You're correct, I could have phrased it better and realized this soon after posting, but unfortunately there is no comment "edit" button. I should have said that either a higher power exist OR that people believe it does. Either way, the "existence" of the higher power is no less a source of moral guidance. Your robot is no exception to this rule, as long as people wholeheartedly believe in the existence of this robot. I'm not sure how this negates the ability for a "higher power" to be the source of morality. If the problem lies with the fact that the robot doesn't exist, then that's a different question altogether.

YOU:
The Dilemma is a reductio ad absurdum. It is easily stated in a number of ways, for example, 'the Bible is not the source of morality'. This claim is often used and always pathetic. Let us note two things: "The Bible supports slavery." "Slavery is immoral." This is logically sensical and just that much, proves the point. If the Bible were the source of morality any moral argument against the Bible would be so categorically absurd as to be on par with arguing that the first amendment to the Constitution is unconstitutional. You are using a moral judgments external to the Bible and external to the dictum of gods.

ME:
That is exactly my point! If the Bible is the source of morality, slavery isn't immoral. Your argument against the Bible being the source of morality depends on your assumption that it isn't! Your point of view is that slavery is immoral and the Bible advocates slavery, therefore the Bible is immoral and can't be the source of morality. You are basing your entire line of reasoning on the fact that you know slavery is immoral.
Posted by Tatarize 5 years ago
Tatarize
On the note of length, I myself am rather annoyed by this stupid 2000 character limit. It's so much easier to "go long" than it is to get around to making a clear and concise point.

YOU:
Your argument assumes that no higher power exists. In order for #1 to work, a higher power must either exist, or people must believe that he exists.

ME:
You just contradicted yourself. A higher power need not exist to have people believe in it, therefore, by your own admission, a higher power is NOT needed for #1 to work. Similarly, the robot which will eat my head need not actually exist in order for me to follow orders.

The Euthyphro Dilemma is not concerned with the existence of deities just whether such external dictates can be deemed moral when clearly contradicted by internal moral understanding.

--

The Euthyphro Dilemma suggests a deity exists as for the sake of argument. That is no more demanding of theism than when I argue that all good deities shouldn't allow good people to suffer for an eternity for inconsequential nothings.

The Dilemma is a reductio ad absurdum. It is easily stated in a number of ways, for example, 'the Bible is not the source of morality'. This claim is often used and always pathetic. Let us note two things: "The Bible supports slavery." "Slavery is immoral." This is logically sensical and just that much, proves the point. If the Bible were the source of morality any moral argument against the Bible would be so categorically absurd as to be on par with arguing that the first amendment to the Constitution is unconstitutional. You are using a moral judgments external to the Bible and external to the dictum of gods.

The Euthyphro Dilemma is more than a useless mental exercise, in that, it completely prove the point I was making against this supposed Religious Morality. I need more than your dismissal to find error in the argument. Head-eating robots and hell-fire gods are not a moral foundation.
Posted by Novan_Leon 5 years ago
Novan_Leon
On a side note. I think my posts are becoming too long. I'll attempt to draw most of my points to a close within the next post or two.

:P

My problem with debate.org is it doesn't allow longer debates such as ALWAYS occurs within the comments section.
Posted by Novan_Leon 5 years ago
Novan_Leon
YOU:
Mu. I do not believe that reasoning behind beliefs to be immoral. It was your claim that I was equating epistemology with morality. I never have. I note there's speculative links but do not support that proposition.

ME:
If this is true, then all of this is a misunderstanding. My first post was in response to your following words:

"Religious moderates keep the arguments against religion out of the public sphere when it is religious faith that compels these actions. Certainly, there are people who believe bad things for bad reasons and those who believe good things for bad reasons. Telling people not to attack the bad reasons because some people believe good things is completely unhelpful when it comes to stopping religious extremism." The way you use "bad" and "good" certainly appears to have a moral connotation. At one point I suggested that you use the words "correct" and "incorrect" instead of "good" and "bad" if that's what you really meant. Even then, y

----------------
YOU:
When do correct beliefs lead to bad actions?

ME:
- Jews killed Jesus (assuming Jesus existed)
- The majority of criminals are African American
- Killing an opponent eliminates competition
- If you speak a lie often enough, people will begin to believe it
- Some people are smarter than others
- Homosexual activity has a greater protential for AIDS than heterosexual activity
- Etc.

Likewise, I can give you a ton of beliefs that I consider incorrect but which result in something I consider good.
Posted by Novan_Leon 5 years ago
Novan_Leon
YOU:
The Euthyphro Dilemma makes the point (for those who might not know) that 'what if the gods told you to kill people?' Then clearly they aren't really the gods and because they are telling you to be immoral. There's the rub, you're judging morality from a realm beyond that of the religious. There is clearly an innate morality greater than any religious leanings. -- I daresay the evolutionary underpinning for our innate morality is responsible for all three types (as well as explaining the metaethical leanings).
ME:
The premise that God cannot exist because his actions are immoral or that he willingly allows pain and suffering to exist in the world is probably the most commonly heard justification for Atheism that there is. The flaws with this line of reasoning are the assumptions that it makes, namely, that is assumes the result. Here's a common example from an Atheist's point of view:

Premise 1: The Christian's claim their God is moral
Premise 2: Genocide is immoral
Premise 3: God commanded the Israelites to commit genocide
Conclusion 1: God commanded the Israelites to commit immorality
Conclusion 2: God is immoral
Conclusion 3: The Christian God either doesn't exist, or is an immoral God

Each one of these premises assumes that, if there is a God, He must exist within the confines of the same moral boundaries that we do (the first portion of the Euthyphro Dilemma). Each of these premises also depends on the fact that morality does not conform to God (the second portion of the Euthyphro Dilemma).

Whether you believe in an innate "morality" greater than any religious leanings depends entirely on your definition of "morality" and what your religious beliefs are. There's no way you can make this claim for everyone. What you claim is an "innate morality" I simply see as animal instinct. There is a clear distinction between morality and animal instinct in my mind.
Posted by Novan_Leon 5 years ago
Novan_Leon
YOU:
I must disagree with your claim about the first type of morality. The Euthyphro Dilemma pretty well smacks that idea down. A god damning people who don't love him and blessing those who do is no more a foundation for morality than claiming a robot will eat my head if I don't act in the ways it proscribes.

ME:
Your argument assumes that no higher power exists. In order for #1 to work, a higher power must either exist, or people must believe that he exists.

"Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?"

All arguments for the first portion of the Euthyphro Dilemma require a diety that is limited to the same moral boundaries that we are, thus negating the possibility of an all powerful diety. All arguments against the second portion of the question presumes the non-existence of an all-powerful diety by default. While an interesting mental exercise, the usefulness of the Euthyphro Dilemma as a truth catalyst is questionable to say the least. Whether a diety exists or not, the question become moot when taken to it's limit.
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