The Instigator
Kefka
Pro (for)
Losing
5 Points
The Contender
Vi_Veri
Con (against)
Winning
28 Points

FFX is the best Final Fantasy, while Kefka is the best villian in Final Fantasy.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/23/2009 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,677 times Debate No: 8366
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (33)
Votes (5)

 

Kefka

Pro

Final Fantasy has been a long standing series in the RPG (role playing) genre, and is widely regarded as one of the best RPG series in history. I believe FFX to be the best of the Final Fantasies ( I have played 6,7,8,10,10-2, and 12). I also regard Kefka (FF6), as being the greatest Villain in Final Fantasy history (of course constricted by the exact number of games I have played in the genre).

My justification for FFX being the best in the series: The story of the game delved deep into a plethora of different themes. It included the remnants of a lost civilization, the discussion of Sin (though not directly, it was represented by the Villian (secondary villain, being controlled by an evil spirit, forgot the name), also the love affair of Yuna and Tidus, the ongoing fight against Sin, in regards to an enemy, that was seemingly unbeatable, the ethics of what to do in dire situations, and of course political demagogues like Seymour. Many other themes were focused on in the game, but I will go into more detail in the debate.

Justification for Kefka being the greatest villain in the FF series: He became a God and destroyed the world, end of story.
Vi_Veri

Con

I'd like to thank my opponent for presenting a debate on one of my favorite RPG series of all time! Now, let us begin:

There is one final fantasy that could crumple every other under it's sheer demonstration of public lust. Game spot remarked, "never before have technology, playability, and narrative combined as well." IGN exclaimed, "light years beyond anything ever seen on the PlayStation!" Electronic Gaming Monthly swooned that it was a part of, "the 10 most important games … that helped redefine the industry since … 1989". Citing its "beautiful cut-scenes and a deep, introspective narrative", they claimed that "Square's game was … the first RPG to surpass, instead of copy, movie-like storytelling." Dengeki PlayStation named it the "best story", "best RPG", and "best overall game."

And, in great honor, GamePro named it the fourteenth most important video game of all-time.

This game, of course, is Final Fantasy VII.

Considered the most popular game of the series (http://uk.gamespot.com..., FF10 did not make this list), it's 9.72 million sales (with an initial 2.3 million copies sold in Japan in the very first 3 days) crushes FFX's 7.95 million sales. (http://vgchartz.com..., http://www.vgchartz.com...) Final Fantasy 7, in fact, is the highest selling Final Fantasy title of all time (http://psp.ign.com...)

Final Fantasy VII was also the first to use the Playstation's internal sound chip through MIDIs, and the ever popular "One Winged Angel" is considered Nobuo Uematsu's (Final Fantaasy's composer) "most recognizable contribution." (http://www.1up.com...) This new shift was ground breaking and progressive for the Final Fantasy series.

It won number 2 in Japan's Famitsu magazine's "Top 100 Games of All Time." GameFAQ named it the "Best. Game. Ever." and so did its subscribers (double vote).

The ground breaking full motion video sequences and computer graphics presented in FF7 set in motion the first Final Fantasy movie (The Spirits Within). Final Fantasy also launched branch games extending its story (Dirge of Cerberus, Crisis Core) and a full length movie (Advent Children). It also introduced modern-to-advanced technology into the Final Fantasy series.

Unlike Final Fantasy 7, in Final Fantasy 10 you can not travel the entire map with a Chocobo (bird creature used like a horse in the games) or manually control your air ship. It was also the first Final Fantasy to be moved to a new system for much more added length (3 CDs instead of 1 like the former FFs), had breath taking FMV cinematics for its time, and it can also be said that "Though story and character certainly are the heart of Final Fantasy VII, the gameplay mechanics are the soul, perfectly fusing typical RPG complexity and accessibility." (http://www.gamespot.com...).

The story line is also rich and full of depth, with the death of one of the game's main characters, Aeris, named one of the most traumatic scenes in gaming history (http://www.gamespot.com...). The game deals with ecological crisis (the raping of the planet by the humans for energy, which is in turn leading to their final doom), love triangles (Cloud, Tifa, and Aeris - who's outcome the player actually gets to choose!), mistaken identity (Cloude, Zach), scientific ethics (Sephiroth's consumption, Red XIII etc), race (last of the cetras, etc), religion (promised land the cetras were to lead Shinra, Jenova herself), alien races and their godly powers, mass viral outbreak to destroy all life on a planet (Jenova), the problem of humanity (Cloud finding out his lack of humanity in face of Jenova, the actual brutal actions of the citizens of the planet to pillage it, human ethics in general), under ground groups fighting against established government (AVALANCHE), conspiracy theories, rebellion against the government by the minority etc.

Final Fantasy VII stands the test of time. And because it is the best Final Fantasy title of all time, it, of course, holds the best and most loved villain of all time (in both Final Fantasy and all video gaming history, according to GameFAQ's polls).

Sephiroth. The name still brings shivers to gamers. He was named "one of the most recognized and famous villains in video game history" by IGN, Electronic Gaming Monthly named him number one on the "Video Game Bosses." He was also named number one boss in G4's "Filter." He was named 14th best character of *all time* by Dengeki PlayStation, His theme was so popular, Square Enix was teased to actually run out of remixes of "One-Winged Angel," a GameSpot poll listed him as the number one boss, getting five times more votes than the number two boss (Bowser), GamerHelp put the Sephiroth fight in "Kingdom Hearts" into the list of "Hardest Bosses of All Time" and said the fight itself was more difficult than the entirety of Final Fantasy VII. Sephiroth's battle is loved by many players for its difficulty, emotional drive (his impalement of Aeris while she is praying), and use of all the former elements in the game to strategically destroy him as a boss. Sephiroth's plot is also very ville and ethically despicable. It is to fatally injure the planet so he can mold with it and use all of the energy in the retaliation of the life stream to become a god. Players also love his complicated motivations for such a plot, and his sword, Masamune, has become iconic.

All in all, Final Fantasy VII is a title to be reckoned with, possessing the best sales, most break throughs, most progression, most iconic plot points, and best villain of not just Final Fantasy titles, but of all time.
Debate Round No. 1
Kefka

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent for her interesting yet expected rebuttal.

First off, a lot of the evidence my opponent has put forth is not acceptable. As it is an appeal to popularity (Logical Fallacy). To state something is 'better' because it has received more sales, rated higher on game reviewers (which also takes into account their reputability, as I myself do not respect Game Pro or EGM), is fallacious.

http://www.nizkor.org...

Though, if an appeal to popularity is somewhat intriguing to a voter, Famitsu awarded FFX with a 39/40; as they are well known for having tough scoring. In 2006, readers of Famitsu awarded FFX with the title of "best game of all time". As this is more prestigious, considering the number of titles released from 2005 to 2006 that it had to compete with, than when FF7 received its honor in 2005. IGN named FFX the 3rd best ps2 game in it's "25 Best ps2 games of all time" contest in 2007. Yes, all of this is nice and dandy, but what it really comes down to is the game, not what critics say or sales say.

My opponent points out that FF7 was at its time, in the peak of technological advancement. This is true, but when compared to FFX's lush environments, beautifully detailed characters, and more expansive world; it can't contend. Yes, they are 4 years apart (FF7 released in 1997, FFX in 2001), but that's inconsequential when speaking about comparing two games, as they can just be compared relative to their time.

FFX was a pioneer in featuring seamless and quick loading 3D environments rather than the traditional pre-rendered backgrounds. As well as advanced facial expressions and seamless voice animation in sync with audio; achieved by innovative motion capture and skeletal animation technology.

Contradictory to what my opponent has stated, you CAN in fact, ride a Chocobo in FFX, traveling far distances with it. You can also manually control your airship and travel to where you want, once you reach a certain point in the game. Also, FFX was the pioneer of the Condition-Turn Based system (CTB), as apposed to the usual, Active Battle system, which was a refreshing change in the series. As a nice addition, in FFX, there is the best line up of Aeons in the series yet. Featuring, one of the best Aeons in FF history, Anima. His overdrive (limit break), involves dragging you to hell, and beating the living crap out of you.

Final Fantasy X's story has been unrivaled by many FF, except maybe FF6. Tidus, the main character, is but a pure memory of a lost civilization, his destiny, to defeat Sin. Along the story, many friends are gained by Tidus and Yuna, a powerful magus, to fight back against the powerful enemy, Sin. A secondary boss in the game is Seymour. A political demagogue who tricks the party and the armies of Spira, into thinking he is a good guy, and then turns around and kidnaps Yuna, and makes her his wife. Along the story, the party fights him many times, in different forms, before reaching the final boss Sin. Who is really Tidus' father, turned into Sin after he gave his life up to be the final Aeon(Esper) for Braska, Yuna's father (The second Protagonist in the story, guarded by Tidus, and his love). Sin is the manifestation of Yu Yevon, a powerful mage, in order to defeat an army 1000s of years prior to the events in FFX. In order to control Sin and pacify it for 10 years, a pilgrimage must be taken by a group powerful heroes. They must take control of all of the Aeons, then, once capturing those, make their way to Lady Yunalesca, the ghost of a dead sorceress, who holds the power to create the Final Aeon, which is, believed throughout the story, to be the only way to vanquish, and prevent, the reoccurring manifestation Sin for 10 years. Though, the price of the summoning of this Aeon, is the death and sacrifice of a powerful friend, who is close to the summoner. The individual, who was sacrificed for the Final Aeon, eventually becomes the soul trapped in Sin. (A rather vicious cycle, to be frank). When Tidus, Yuna, and the party reach Lady Yunalesca, they defy the status quo that has been the ritual summoning of the Final Aeon, and they kill Yunalesca. From there, they make their way to fight Sin, and after they defeat him, Jecht's spirit is released and Tidus makes amends with his Father, whom he had disdained because of his apparent but untrue lack of love for Tidus. After killing Sin, the party vanquishes Yu Yevon, the soul of the ancient mage who created Sin, and prevent the cycle from occurring again.

A quick synopsis, but outlines the crucial, and masterful story telling of FFX.
http://en.wikipedia.org...- Has an even better synopsis of the story. Which, I, personally, find to be the most important factor in deciding a game's 'quality'.

Kefka, with his trademark sadistic laugh, lack of empathy, nihilistic, uncaring, sadistic, and ambitious attitude, makes him the greatest FF villain of all time. His attitude deviates from the usual, overdone, quiet, calculating, 'serial killer' attitude that Sephiroth embodies. Sephiroth's only understandable, and emotional attribute, was his contempt for his ignorance of his existence, being the offspring of an alien's genes. Kefka isn't some mommas boy (Sephiroth), nor does he have a sad back story that makes you feel sympathetic towards his cause; he is simply wishing for the death of everything because he sees life as a waste of time, and useless. He tricks the people of the Gehstalian Army into killing mass amounts of Espers, gains power by tricking and manipulating people, kills an entire castle full of people by poisoning their water supply, and laughs while doing all of this. One thing that separates Kefka from the rest of the FF villains, and villains in any shape, form, or story: He succeeds in his mission. Through capturing energy from Espers and magic, he ascends to Godhood, becoming a 6 winged angel (4 white, 2 black, it's cool), and with his power, destroys the entire world; making it a giant, scorched, crater. While, Sephiroth fails, in his self-pitying quest for vengeance against the world that brought him misery.

Because of my opponent's large reliance on popularity and popular opinion, with both FF7 and Sephiroth, most of her rebuttal should not be taken into account. And when faced with the depth in FFX, with it's masterful storytelling, deep characters, sub plots, themes, technological advancements, and the sadistic, nihilistic, uncaring attitude and actual mission success of Kefka, her resoultion falls short.
Vi_Veri

Con

Without giving a definition for "better," my opponent has proceeded to give me logical fallacies that I have apparently come to fulfill. My opponent *can not* tell me that I am committing argumentum ad populum (appeal to popularity) if he has not defined "better." Better could be "most liked" or "most praised" just like it could be "most progressive" or "best graphics of its time." My arguments were based on both - praise for its build, and praise from its fans. Therefore, Final Fantasy VII encompasses not only the hard facts of "better" but also the popularity part of "better."

In the gaming world: if the players don't like it (if the population wont buy it), it's not called a "good" game.

My opponent also accuses me of argumentum ad verecundiam (appealing to authority). The mistake my opponent makes in this regard is that the appeal to authority fallacy can not be used in such an instance (as it is his own personal opinion about the authority). Also, appeal to authority is needed for a lot of things we from day to day "believe" (like believing our doctor when he says we have a heart problem, or trusting Armani to build a good looking dress). Choosing to address gaming magazines that review the games (and giving my opponent *many* different reviews, not just a single magazine) is perfectly acceptable if I am adding a bit of actual authority to why the game is better. I'm sure my opponent is relying very heavily on appeal to authority when he talks about the components of a game (he probably doesn't know technological nitty gritty but had to learn it from authority in order to talk about it). He is especially relying on appeal to authority in order to make his claim that FFX is the best, because my opponent has only played a few of the games (6,7,8,10,10-2, and 12) and must read about the former final fantasies from other authority in order to make his "secure opinion" about FFX. My opponent can not make fallacy claims when he has not clearly defined the parameters in which we are arguing "better." His better, or the world's better?

Moving forward into his argument....

My opponent talks about how it is inconsequential to compare the two games in graphics, but when you see that FF7 had the best graphics of its time and FF10 was just one amongst the others of its time, we can sure compare. Also, my opponent makes a claim that FF10 was pioneering in voice acting and facial expressions for its characters: Since my opponent is using his own opinion as authority in this debate, I can give my opinion on the voice acting and facial expressions of Final Fantasy 10 right here: I considered it horrible and cheesy. The voice acting took a lot away from the game, making some points even laughable. Even GamePro (and many others) agree. (http://www.gamepro.com...)

My opponent states: "Contradictory to what my opponent has stated, you CAN in fact, ride a Chocobo in FFX, traveling far distances with it." I never stated you couldn't ride one, I merely stated you couldn't ride one throughout the entire map like you can in FF7. Also, in FF7, you can actually navigate the airship, which you can not do on FF10 until the very end of the game (both causing much frustration amongst gamers).

My opponent, again, with his limited knowledge of all the Final Fantasy games, gives his personal account of finding Final Fantasy 10 to be the best story (and gives a synopsis of the story line). My opponent can *not* say that FF10 is objectively the best Final Fantasy (using his own opinion) when he has not played all of the Final Fantasy games. Here is a quick synopsis of Final Fantasy VII's story line: http://www.ffinsider.net... Obviously, from its sales and popularity, it is by far more loved by the gaming community and "better." (Also, the slaughter scene by Sephiroth being one of the top scenes in all gaming history can be added to that). The story line is deeper, just as shocking, and just as chilling - . That is FF's staple: good stories.

He goes on with Kefka. Kefka can not be grasped by players like Sephiroth can. What my opponent counts as "errors" in Sephiroth are actually strengths. Sephiroth's backstory makes the player sympathetic toward his cause gives him a strong emotional bond with the player, making the struggle between the game's main characters and the game's villain quite the emotional battle for the player. Just because Kefka succeeds does not make him the best villain: there are plenty of heroes that succeed and don't succeed and this doesn't make them the "best hero." What makes a good villain is one that the player can relate to, that shows the player dark sides of him/herself and makes the struggle between the main villain and the main hero quite the struggle indeed. It gives more depth to the character and not only labels him in boring black or white terms (like Kefka) but makes him human (which makes him richer, more real, more palpable than Kefka could ever be). No one can relate to someone like Kefka who is just manic and out of his mind for no good reason, but people can relate to Sephiroth who is twisted and sinister for reasons we could all possibly fall victim to. Sephiroth was not only very human, but was grossly powerful and has The Masamunie; The most powerful weapon in Final Fantasy. Because of his popularity, he has even been featured in other games (like Kingdom Hearts) which wasn't something Square has done with Kefka.

It all comes down to this: Do we trust millions of gamers (including myself) and authority gaming magazines that rate Final Fantasy 7 higher than Final Fantasy 10, or do we trust my opponent who hasn't even played all of the games (and possibly hasn't even played 7 for all we know, we'd have to appeal to authority in order to believe him - going against his logic).

Final Fantasy VII is the better of the Final Fantasy games, and, unsurprisingly to this claim, holds the best villain, giving it double the strength.

Final Statistics on the two games:

FINAL FANTASY VII (7):

"Reception"

--Aggregate scores--

Aggregator Score

Metacritic 92 out of 100[63]
MobyGames 93 out of 100[65]
TopTenReviews 3.7428 out of 4[64]

--Review scores--

Publication Score

1UP.com A+[66]
Electronic Gaming Monthly 9.5 out of 10[63]
Famitsu 38 out of 40[67]
GamePro 5 out of 5[68]
GameSpot 9.5 out of 10[2]
IGN 9.5 out of 10[5]
Official PlayStation Magazine (US) 5 out of 5[69]
PSM 5 out of 5[70]

FINAL FANTASY X (10):

"Reception"

--Aggregate scores--

Aggregator Score

GameRankings 91%[46]
Metacritic 92 out of 100[45]

--Review scores--
Publication Score

Edge 6 out of 10[47]
Eurogamer 9 out of 10[48]
Famitsu 39 out of 40[49]
Game Informer 9.75 out of 10[50]
GameSpot 9.3 out of 10[51]
GameSpy 4 out of 5[52]
IGN 9.5 out of 10[24]

Regards (and a thank you to my opponent for the good match),

Vi

*cue "One Winged Angel"*
Debate Round No. 2
33 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Kefka 7 years ago
Kefka
You may be right about not fully experiencing the entire series, but I still hold firm with my assertion; plus, she only busted out Final Fantasy Overrated Emo Fest, and since I played it, I can argue :D I do like ff7. It has a good storyline with depth to its characters. It just doesn't crack up to the awesomefest of FFX. Tidus being a dream doesn't make his struggle obsolete. You're completely eliminating the fact that he wants to help the "real" people...I mean possibly altruism? (Though, I believe he never really existed in the first place. He was just Yu Yevon's wet dream from Gagazyt Fayth. And when everyone realized he wasn't.."real", they stopped "faything" :D )

I got rid of my ps2 a long time ago for some reason, but I"m buying a new one since Sony thinks backwards compatibility is blasphemy; now I must get ps3 silmzor for Christmas and a ps2 slim so I can play KH 2/FFs...yay! So I will take your advice and play 8 and 9.
Posted by geziskryst 7 years ago
geziskryst
Well that's another factor that makes your argument even less sound. how can someone say something is the best without having ever experienced them all? And yeah, Kefka destryoed the planet but Ultimecia destroyed all of time. Meaning the past, present, and future of not only the planet, but the whole universe. When Squall and company fight her final form... there is nothing left, nothing at all!

We can debate the pro and con of FFX all day, it still remains less popular than FF7. The only element that was really well done was its story, so much so that FFX-2 was created. But FF7 has a movie, 3 spin off games etc.

Lastly as for Tidus being a dream... how does that make him interesting? That makes his struggle obsolete because he is even real (at first). All we know of Tidus is that he is loud, hyper, is pissed with Jecht, loves Bliztball (which by the way doesnt drown him lol) and wants to boink Yuna. Now lets look at the intricate personality of Cloud. Firstt of all, he went through such a tramatic event in his life that he completely surpressed then vent to the point where now he doesn't remember who he really is... He is caught in a love triangle between Aerith ( Aeris) and Tifa, he has extrodinary powers, which he doesn't fully understand, he is quiet adn reserved, he keeps his cool almost eerily even in the toughest situations, he eventually feels regret for not having saved Aerith... and on and on and on...

SO to make your argument more sound... play through 7, 8, 9, and 10 again. one after the other. At the very least you shouldp play through 9 and also get on youtube and watch the final battle against Ultimecia... it's amazing. period. first form, summon greiver, griever junction, final form...
Posted by Kefka 7 years ago
Kefka
Of course this is a matter of opinion, but isn't everything? Nothing is fact and set in stone; it's how we prove our points that matters.

I shall now address everything you've said in a very random order:

I still think the storyline of X makes the emo fest of VII look like a childrens book. I played F8 when I was about 10?...so I don't really remember much =/ Sephiroth is such a boring boss; again just an emo fester. Tidus is very interesting...he's a flippin DREAM! Sphere grid may allow the entire party to learn various abilities, but their "skill" in using them dramatically decreases/increases the dmg output. Auron using spells? Ya, don't try that; I had to restart the game at Seymour's 3rd transformation on Gykaka (whatever) mountain, because I sphered him into Lulu's grid. I have yet to play FF9, so I will make an effort to do so. Kefka is just a crazy mother fudger, so he wins. I mean..how many times should i mention that he blows up the earth with one spell? /continue rant
Posted by geziskryst 7 years ago
geziskryst
This is kinda lame folks. Not only is this a matter of opinion but moreover it has no real basis adn the term "best" is use here to mean what exaclty? What defines a villian as the best? Populairty? Then it's undoubtedly Sephiroth. Appearance and personality? That could be Kefka, or perhaps Kuja. If it's based on powers and abilities is almost has to be Ultimecia ( my personal favorite as well). I mean, she can control your mind and body, turn thoughts or inanimate objects into living beings, compress time, project herself into other forms... and eventually becomes virtually a god... Let's see Sephrioth swing his big sword at a God and win... lol Not only does she create Griever from Squalls mind, but then junctions herself to it!

As for the "best" FF game... that too can change and very based on what you define as "best". I personally would have to say FFX is not even in the top 3. Despite its intricate story line, the party members were lacking in personality, the loss of the field map made the game seem smaller and less "epic" and the sphere grid system meant all party members could learn anything/everything... lame. Yuna, Seymour, and many many other were so much more interesting than Tidus. In my opinion, if you look at originality of characters and their abilities from one to the next... FF9 delivers. If you want cool modern elements, will realistic characters and cool FMV sequences... FF8. If you want Epic, and emotional... FF7

I could go on and on but I wont. So, in my opinion based on all the elements overall Id say FF7 is the Best overall game and Ultimecia from FF8 is the best overall boss. She is also a freakin' beast on Dissidia... she's so sneaky haha.

myspace.com/geziskryst
Posted by Kefka 7 years ago
Kefka
Mother 3 is the best RPG ever. End of story.
Posted by MrButtons22 7 years ago
MrButtons22
VII is the geatest, though III and IV (on the DS especially) are exceptional as well. Anyone here ever hear of Baeten Kaitos? That, to me, is one of the BEST RPGs ever.
Posted by Kefka 7 years ago
Kefka
Haha, that's a possibility :P But I doubt it in this short of a debate. It just seems weird and biased to me, but I guess that's just me Lol
Posted by Vi_Veri 7 years ago
Vi_Veri
Or maybe I'm just that good. Ever think of that? ; )
Posted by Kefka 7 years ago
Kefka
Geez, it seems straight 7s are being given. 1 vote that's mine, then 4 others. Vi has 28 points, so they are giving every win to her. This doesn't make sense, as in most debates, one person will not have all 6 areas. Guess people miss the entire point of debates, how sad :P.
Posted by Kefka 7 years ago
Kefka
Haha I know ;p
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by Tatarize 7 years ago
Tatarize
KefkaVi_VeriTied
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Vote Placed by Danielle 7 years ago
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KefkaVi_VeriTied
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Vote Placed by Kefka 7 years ago
Kefka
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Vote Placed by LaSalle 7 years ago
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KefkaVi_VeriTied
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Vote Placed by Vi_Veri 7 years ago
Vi_Veri
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