The Instigator
inspyre
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
theCall
Con (against)
Winning
1 Points

Faith is TRUST, not positive thinking

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/29/2009 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,558 times Debate No: 9078
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (1)

 

inspyre

Pro

Many teach and believe that faith is a mystical power that one can summon to convince God to do things on their behalf. They believe in "naming and claiming things" and "speaking things into existence."

This debate will allow us to explore the true essence of faith. It's not a superhero power and it cannot be faked. It is a plain and simple trust in the thing you have faith in. When you have that type of faith, there is no need to bombard God with "positive thinking" or "professions of faith". You can live your life trusting His plan fully, knowing that there is little you want to change about what He does and does not do. After all, we cannot possibly understand where the future is headed. It's better in the hands of One who does know. But, it takes trust to feel that way.

So, to start us off, faith is an ever-growing state of complete trust, whatever that faith may be in. The more it works and proves itself out, the more you trust, thus growing your faith.

So, stop stomping up and down commanding God to do things and trying to create things with your fake positivity. That's not faith - it's either stupid or it's witchcraft. Just because you convince YOURSELF of it, doesn't make it true - especially when it all fails.
theCall

Con

First of all, again thank you for this debate, you and I finally get to see again and get to debate again.

Faith, a trust and royalty to God, like you said, yes faith is basically trust and loyalty, but to say that faith has no power is just a simple and bold statement without back up.

"When you have that type of faith, there is no need to bombard God with "positive thinking" or "professions of faith". You can live your life trusting His plan fully, knowing that there is little you want to change about what He does and does not do. After all, we cannot possibly understand where the future is headed. It's better in the hands of One who does know. But, it takes trust to feel that way."
+What do you mean by positive thinking or professional faith? So you say that we should give God negative thinking and amateur faith? You can't live your life and trust Him fully if you keep thinking negative such as: "Will God let me to Heaven?" or "Is there really a God?", no faith can allow negative thoughts, when you afraid, when you have negative thoughts, those are symptoms of what we call: "Doubting Syndrome"

"So, to start us off, faith is an ever-growing state of complete trust, whatever that faith may be in. The more it works and proves itself out, the more you trust, thus growing your faith"
+ True, I totally agree with this statement.

"So, stop stomping up and down commanding God to do things and trying to create things with your fake positivity. That's not faith - it's either stupid or it's witchcraft. Just because you convince YOURSELF of it, doesn't make it true - especially when it all fails."

That's not stomping down and command God, it's called praying, having faith, think if you pray and never think it will become true, then how can you call that's faith? Like Jesus said in John 14:13-14 " And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.". Remember what did Jesus said before He rose Lazarus back from dead, what was the great sentence that came out of our Lord lips? It was:"Do you believe this?', yes, just a little faith we can move a moutain, that's the power of faith.
Debate Round No. 1
inspyre

Pro

Thank you, opponent, for an agressive start to this debate. Your arguments are sound, and very much appreciated.

TRUST IS LOYALTY?

I disagree with loyalty being a component of faith, although it should be present the more we have faith in something. Loyalty is something that speaks more about our own values than the things we would have faith in.

FAITH AS A POWER?

Faith in itself is not a supernatural power, it is a human response. Although expressions of faith can be powerful, faith ITSELF is not an ability nor an incredient in a spell.

POSITIVE THINKING?

First, let me clarify. You misunderstood the word "profession" to mean that "professional". I was referring to that which one professes, or subscribes to. The point against positive thinking is that we approach faith in a way that makes it so if you "think positive", all your wishes will come true. This is known as Positive Thinking (a human potential and quite secular concept), not faith.

I agree that we should not spent our lives thinking negatively. Indeed, that would be a consequence of NOT having faith. But, trust does not require one to "close your eyes and think of only good things" in order to yield effective. Trust means that I can confidently live my life trusting God's plan for my life, and living in that. Sometimes that means I get what I want. Sometimes it doesn't. Either way, I trust Him without judging the outcome. That is true faith.

The alternative is that faith is this power to manipulate reality, causing things to change based on how "hard" we believe it. Let's address that below.

IS PRAYER POSITIVE CONFESSION?

Let's quote the scipture again:

John 14:13-14 " And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.".

If one trusts in the truths of the Bible, one would have to reconcile interpretation with good reasoning. Let's put this scripture to the test. Go now and pray to God for something you want. Ask in Jesus' name. Ask for it to be given to you for the sake to exposing truth for this debate, so you will need to receive it rather quickly. Be specific and make it so that an answer to that prayer is unmistakeable from God.

You will find that, like praying for a traffic light to change for you, the SOVEREIGNTY of God overrules your every request. You see, people miss the context of Jesus' teachings. He was not telling anyone here that if you want a Lexus, pray and He will give it to you. He was always referring to doing the will of God in your life. Those things that you need to fulfill His mission will always be provided for you.

This is why in Matthew 6:8, Jesus states that God already knows what you need before you ask it. He teaches against long winded prayers that really don't pay off. He states that God doesn't even like listening to them.

Prayer is for communion with God - to grow your relationship with Him. If you really believe that you have to pray and constantly ask God for the things YOU think you need, then I would not call that faith at all. If you really trusted the all-knowing God, you would not ask Him to change a thing about His plan - even if it affects you negatively. You would say - He knows best, like Jesus did.
theCall

Con

Thank you for my opponent argument, like all times, it all aggressive and really well prepared:

"Faith in itself is not a supernatural power, it is a human response. Although expressions of faith can be powerful, faith ITSELF is not an ability nor an incredient in a spell." Indeed, very precisely, but we should know faith is much more different than rational thinking, faith does not required to be tested by empirical and super of science or anything else. Faith is something human but also what God had given people like human conscience. Faith itself can be powerful, without faith nobody can touch or feel God or even do anything else in the first place without thinking it will be irrational or nonsense.

"First, let me clarify. You misunderstood the word "profession" to mean that "professional". I was referring to that which one professes, or subscribes to. The point against positive thinking is that we approach faith in a way that makes it so if you "think positive", all your wishes will come true. This is known as Positive Thinking (a human potential and quite secular concept), not faith." First of all, let say this, if you come to God and you think that all your prayers, all your wishes will never ever come true, then that's not faith, praying is an act of communicating to God talk to God, it's like you make a phone call to God or directly talk to Him, when you ask God something, yes there are possibilities that God will not answer that prayer or decline it, yes you should think that sometime God will do that but it's not rational to always believe that our prayers will not come true.

"I agree that we should not spent our lives thinking negatively. Indeed, that would be a consequence of NOT having faith. But, trust does not require one to "close your eyes and think of only good things" in order to yield effective. Trust means that I can confidently live my life trusting God's plan for my life, and living in that. Sometimes that means I get what I want. Sometimes it doesn't. Either way, I trust Him without judging the outcome. That is true faith." Faith is also believe that whatever happen, God will do the right thing for your life and your works, and believe every outcomes is according to His holy will, that's why people "close their eyes and think only good things."

"If one trusts in the truths of the Bible, one would have to reconcile interpretation with good reasoning. Let's put this scripture to the test. Go now and pray to God for something you want. Ask in Jesus' name. Ask for it to be given to you for the sake to exposing truth for this debate, so you will need to receive it rather quickly. Be specific and make it so that an answer to that prayer is unmistakeable from God." when Jesus said and I will do it, it mean He will answer it, the answer is yes or no, I don't know but just think it and believe in the right power and believe that He will do the right thing for us.

"You will find that, like praying for a traffic light to change for you, the SOVEREIGNTY of God overrules your every request. You see, people miss the context of Jesus' teachings. He was not telling anyone here that if you want a Lexus, pray and He will give it to you. He was always referring to doing the will of God in your life. Those things that you need to fulfill His mission will always be provided for you." There're lots of ministers need lots of things, even just a simple thing like a bike but none of them have seen what you call "fulfill what you need for His mission.", I believe what Jesus metaphorically said that :"Keep up your faith, be patient, I will do what you ask."

"This is why in Matthew 6:8, Jesus states that God already knows what you need before you ask it. He teaches against long winded prayers that really don't pay off. He states that God doesn't even like listening to them." God know you before you even exist in your mother womb, yes of course He knows what you need, but the things you need will come in a time so keep up faith because faith is the ticket to the powerful God.

"Prayer is for communion with God - to grow your relationship with Him. If you really believe that you have to pray and constantly ask God for the things YOU think you need, then I would not call that faith at all. If you really trusted the all-knowing God, you would not ask Him to change a thing about His plan - even if it affects you negatively. You would say - He knows best, like Jesus did."

You want something, you need to work to get it, asking God is not commanding Him but asking God is to expressing our faith, if I ask God to please forgive my brother, then am I commanding God to do so or just simply beg God's pardon? Everything you do shall not change His plan, unless He wants to change a plan my friend.

Faith is a powerful ticket to our God, without faith then praying is not an option or necessary anymore, faith is a wonderful and powerful gift that God Almighty had given us, amen.
Debate Round No. 2
inspyre

Pro

inspyre forfeited this round.
theCall

Con

My opponent had forfeit this round, so let I post my argument.

What's faith? Why does God need us to believe, to have faith to be able to be saved? Well yes like my opponent said, faith is just simply trust, but it's different with God, because trust in God not just let Him has control in your life but also that act of trusting can also lead you to power, God's power for human being.

Let's us take look at the story of Jesus and His disciples in the storm:

"4:39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?"(Mark 4:39-40)

Now let's us discuss this part, what if they didn't woke Jesus up? What if they just simply pray? Do you think the whole situation will change? Yes, indeed. Because they didn't believe, they didn't have faith enough therefore the storm will come and they won't be prepared.

Your topic of argument is :"Faith is trust, not positive thinking.", well let's us look at this other Bible verse:

"6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?"(Matthew 6:25)

If you trust, you not just need some positive thinking, but also positive manner, to believe God will do good things, and everything God does are good.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 3
inspyre

Pro

First, I would like to apologize to my opponent for forfeiting the last round. I lost track of time during the weekend and failed to reply in time. Thank you for posting in spite of my failure to meet the deadline.

FAITH AS POWER?

First, the Bible doesn't ever state that God NEEDS us to believe in order to be God or to act on our behalf. Faith is not a conduit for God's decisions, but a mindset that trusts Him to make the best decision possible.

Surely, this can create a POSITION OF POWER. knowing that we are freed from worry and doubt. It also frees us from having to constantly "cross our fingers" and make sure that we convince ourselves that God is going to do something because we now have "enough faith". After all, do you really think that you have faith if you have to convince yourself to believe?

HAVE YOU NO FAITH?

Let's reiterate the passage my opponent used:

"4:39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?"(Mark 4:39-40)

My opponent stated, "Now let's us discuss this part, what if they didn't woke Jesus up? What if they just simply pray? Do you think the whole situation will change? Yes, indeed. Because they didn't believe, they didn't have faith enough therefore the storm will come and they won't be prepared."

This was a great scripture because it provides so much support for my argument. Jesus' point was not that they did not pray - it was that they HAD FEAR. Praying when the storm came would have resulted in the same situation, since it would have been DUE to the fear they felt. true faith would have allowed them to just fall asleep alongside Christ and the rest of those on the boat, fully trusting that God was not going to allow things to end badly.

TAKE NO THOUGHT

My opponent stated, "If you trust, you not just need some positive thinking, but also positive manner, to believe God will do good things, and everything God does are good" using the following scripture as basis:

"6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?"(Matthew 6:25)

There is nothing in that scripture that talks about positive thinking nor "acting positive". It actually states that you should not even "take a though" to what you need. How can you "be positive" about something that you don't even THINK about? Surely what this verse is demonstrating is that faith is about leaving it to God and not even worrying about trying to "name and claim" things for yourself. The following verses demonstrates why:

"26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[a]? 28 And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

Clearly, Jesus is teaching that we should not even CONCERN ourselves with these things. He is in control. The sign of true faith is a lack of fear and worry, not positivity. Let's not confuse FAITH with HOPE.
theCall

Con

Thank you for the come back of my opponent:

"First, the Bible doesn't ever state that God NEEDS us to believe in order to be God or to act on our behalf. Faith is not a conduit for God's decisions, but a mindset that trusts Him to make the best decision possible." No God then faith has no meaning, therefore yes, God does not need us to believe to do something, but God needs us to believe so therefore His miracles, His power might be perform through us, as it was in the story of Jesus and the blind man in John 9:3 " "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.", or the story of Jesus rose Lazarus back from dead, Jesus asked his sister about her faith:
"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. "(John 11:26-27)
Any of God miraculous signs to do to anybody, He always requires one thing, faith.

"Surely, this can create a POSITION OF POWER. knowing that we are freed from worry and doubt. It also frees us from having to constantly "cross our fingers" and make sure that we convince ourselves that God is going to do something because we now have "enough faith". After all, do you really think that you have faith if you have to convince yourself to believe?"
So you'll convince yourself that God won't do a thing? No, faith do not make us convince ourselve that God will do something, faith put into you that God will answer your prayer.

"This was a great scripture because it provides so much support for my argument. Jesus' point was not that they did not pray - it was that they HAD FEAR. Praying when the storm came would have resulted in the same situation, since it would have been DUE to the fear they felt. true faith would have allowed them to just fall asleep alongside Christ and the rest of those on the boat, fully trusting that God was not going to allow things to end badly."
Fear is a part of humanity, we have nerves in our brain that when things come, we can be frightened, they were scared even before they woke Jesus up, it wasn't fear that Jesus rebuked them for, but for thinking that Jesus won't make the storm stop, the lesson is that faith can help you, faith have a power, Godly power, a conductor between us and God.

Faith my friend, is a conductor to God that will open your heart and let His miraculous signs come into you, that's faith.
Debate Round No. 4
inspyre

Pro

Let's focus in on a few statements my opponent made, then on to my statements.

THE MEANING OF FAITH

In the John 9 my opponent supplied, Jesus clearly does ask about the sister's faith before performing His miracle. There are three questions to ask yourself:

1. WHY did he ask her about her faith?
2. Was His power to heal her brother dependant on her answer?
3. Did Jesus already know her answer

To answer question #1, let's look at WHAT he asked her if she believed: "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" This has absolutely nothing to do with the miracle itself. So, why did He ask her that instead of "do you believe I can do this miracle?" Because He did not need her to believe in the miracle in order to do it. He wanted her to pronounce her TRUST in HIM as a person. In essence, He was asking her, "do you trust me?" That's a pretty important question to ask before moving into such a sensitive family situation.

Question #2 is not clear from this passage. But, you have to ask yourself - what does the faith of someone else matter when the miracle is for YOU. So, then someone else can believe ONE YOUR BEHALF?

Question #3 is answered with a simple YES if you base it on Jesus' track record of knowing peoples' hearts and thoughts throughout the Gospels. So, her answer was meaningless except to remind HERSELF that she trusted Him and for Him to reinforce that profession by doing the miracle. The miracle was about healing her brother, but even more about proving that He was trustworthy.

DOES GOD REQUIRE OUR FAITH FOR A MIRACLE?

My opponent stated, "Any of God miraculous signs to do to anybody, He always requires one thing, faith."

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. But, there is nothing anywhere in scripture that states that faith itself is an active ingredient in the miracle. Just that God requires us to trust Him in order for Him to get involved in our lives. Putting our trust in Him does not mean that we are constantly asking Him for things, but that we are NOT constantly asking Him for things, knowing that He is ALREADY at work.

CONVINCING YOURSELF

My opponent stated, "So you'll convince yourself that God won't do a thing? No, faith do not make us convince ourselves that God will do something, faith put into you that God will answer your prayer."

My opponent has consistently taken the approach of moving to the opposite extreme of what I am dispelling. In other words, his argument is that if you do not have to sit around "convincing yourself that God will do something", I must mean that an individual must do the opposite like "convince yourself that He will NOT do anything." This is an erroneous position to take, since there is another alternative.

The point to faith, or trust, is that you do not have to do either one of these two scenarios. You can simply have confidence that God is at work, and that He will always do the right thing. To think that you actually have to do something in order for Him to work is having more faith in YOUR ability to decide the fate of the universe, not His.

FEAR PART OF HUMANITY?

My opponent stated, "Fear is a part of humanity, we have nerves in our brain that when things come, we can be frightened, they were scared even before they woke Jesus up, it wasn't fear that Jesus rebuked them for, but for thinking that Jesus won't make the storm stop, the lesson is that faith can help you, faith have a power, Godly power, a conductor between us and God.

Yet, the scripture my opponent is referring to clearly states: "(Mark 4:39-40) And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.4:40 And he said unto them, WHY ARE YE SO FEARFUL? HOW IS IT THAT YE HAVE NO FAITH?"

Clearly Jesus was indeed rebuking their fear, and using IT as the measurement of true faith.

Faith is about trusting Him and His judgment. HOPE is about waiting with baited breath to see if what He will do is what we want Him to do. Hope is important, but it is not a substitute for faith.
theCall

Con

Thank you for another wonderful argument from my opponent:

First of all, let's us look back in your argument: "To answer question #1, let's look at WHAT he asked her if she believed: "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" This has absolutely nothing to do with the miracle itself. So, why did He ask her that instead of "do you believe I can do this miracle?" Because He did not need her to believe in the miracle in order to do it. He wanted her to pronounce her TRUST in HIM as a person. In essence, He was asking her, "do you trust me?" That's a pretty important question to ask before moving into such a sensitive family situation." Jesus will do the miracle even if she said: "No, sorry, I really don't believe you.", but do you think that it's will become a miracle again? Or it's just a magic trick from an another magician? Lots of the stories in the Bible when Jesus healed somebody, they trusted that Jesus will heal them, that Jesus will open their eyes, raise up their dead brothers, help a limb to stand up, let's us look at the previous verse before Jesus ask the woman: "Do you believe?"

"Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died."(John 11:21)
So, Martha was basically believe that Jesus will positively heal her brother.

But even all those things above, my opponent stated that all of these are just "convincing yourself", so believe that Jesus will heal her brother is "convincing herself"?, or the blinds, the limbs..., all of them were just "convincing themselve"?

My opponent stated, "Any of God miraculous signs to do to anybody, He always requires one thing, faith."

"I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. But, there is nothing anywhere in scripture that states that faith itself is an active ingredient in the miracle. Just that God requires us to trust Him in order for Him to get involved in our lives. Putting our trust in Him does not mean that we are constantly asking Him for things, but that we are NOT constantly asking Him for things, knowing that He is ALREADY at work." Like I told you, it's not an ingredient of miracles, it's a conductor to miracles, trust in Him does not mean that we will say: "God give me this or that..." but trusting mean that we positively believe that God will answer for us, we need to keep praying.

"Clearly Jesus was indeed rebuking their fear, and using IT as the measurement of true faith." Using fear is not a work tactic of God, if we say so then do you think people will trust in God ever a again? Jesus was not just rebuking their fear, but Jesus use His power to make them believe even more and more.

"Faith is about trusting Him and His judgment. HOPE is about waiting with baited breath to see if what He will do is what we want Him to do. Hope is important, but it is not a substitute for faith." If you have no faith, then what are you hoping then?

CONCLUSION: Faith is indeed positive thinking, but what's positive thinking? It's mean that you will wait and keep believing that God will answer your prayers, yes or no, it's still an answer. Faith itself is a power, it's not like faith can control weather or something like that but faith my friends, faith is powerful because it's a bridge to hope, believe, and a bridge between us and God Himself.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by wjmelements 7 years ago
wjmelements
Inspyre: You would have had more success here had you defined "positive thinking".
Posted by inspyre 7 years ago
inspyre
Sorry about the missed round. Time just goes by so fast....
Posted by inspyre 7 years ago
inspyre
mydog - that is actually my point. Faith is just trusting - because you aren't going to make a red light green with it.
Posted by mydogmoroni 7 years ago
mydogmoroni
I am going to have to say that you are both wrong. I do not think that it really matters if you have faith that something will or will not happen. He just lets things run their course without interfering. Give me ONE example of a time where having faith actually changed anything. Did you pray for that raise and get it? Did you pray that your team would win on Sunday? Faith is something that keeps us thinking positively, that we are rewarded for in the end, but it does not cause God to interfere in our lives.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
inspyretheCallTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeited round.