The Instigator
treble_clef_hkd
Con (against)
Losing
4 Points
The Contender
markuswashere
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points

Fast Food $15/hour Wages

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
markuswashere
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/11/2015 Category: Economics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 978 times Debate No: 82414
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (35)
Votes (2)

 

treble_clef_hkd

Con

So, lately fast food employees have been rioting for a $15/hour wage. I think this is ridiculous. First of all you flip burgers and make fries for a living. If you want something that pays higher, get your butt out there and find a job that does. Also, speaking as a 16-year old that is hopefully getting a job in the next few weeks (want McDonald's) I don't want a $15/hour job. If these wages are accepted, I would be making more than my mom does working at the public library. I'm a teenager in high school, which is honestly over half of fast food employees, I need to learn how to save the money that I get, and honestly that is hard for me. I get $15 dollars a week at home for doing chores. Most of the time within a week that money is blown (because I like food) If I get more money that's just gonna make me want to spend it more, not save it. (Next argument depending on opponents argument) (I know this wasn't a very good argument, but hey)
markuswashere

Pro

I would've made longer responses, if not for the character limit. I thank my opponent for opening this debate, and for making most of my arguments for me.

>> First of all you flip burgers and make fries for a living.

A living? My opponent claims that fast food workers are performing their tasks "for a living", but my opponent is against a living wage for minimum wage workers.

>> If you want something that pays higher, get your butt out there and find a job that does.

These are people who are already working, so their "butt" is already out there. However, there is a thing called unemployment. There are not enough jobs for everyone who wants them, and many people who have jobs are unsatisfied with their job. More people are looking for a job than there are jobs out there.

>> speaking as a 16-year old that is hopefully getting a job in the next few weeks (want McDonald's) I don't want a $15/hour job.

I agree with Con that this minimum wage is not necessary for 16 years old. However, most minimum wage workers are not teenagers [1]. 89% of workers making less than $12 an hour are at least 20 years old, while many have children to look after.

If you really do not think teenagers should be getting the new minimum wage, we can do what some other countries do and lower the minimum wage for younger ages.

>> I would be making more than my mom does working at the public library.

This only furthers my argument that this is a policy not only for young people, but my opponent does not seem to recognise that their mother would directly benefit from a minimum wage rise.

>> I need to learn how to save the money that I get, and honestly that is hard for me.

A minimum wage rise would give you more money to save.

>> If I get more money that's just gonna make me want to spend it more, not save it.

This is wonderful for the economy. Money should be spent so that it stimulates the economy.

[1] http://www.epi.org...
Debate Round No. 1
treble_clef_hkd

Con

So, let's say McDonald's raises their minimum wage to $15. First of all where are they going to get the money to pay their employees. They will either have to lay off some employees, thus creating more unemployment or they will have to raise the cost of their food items. So that $1 double cheeseburger will know be around $4-ish. Or they will do both. Either way is horrible. Yes $15/hour would be nice for the people that they don' t lay off. If they do raise the prices of the food, I would definitely not go to that restaurant anymore. I am not paying that kind of money for a burger, and I know several people that won't either, thus creating less business for that fast food, thus creating less money for that chain of restaurants. The only positions that should get over minimum wage in the fast food business should be managers and higher employees. Not Sally McFlipaBurger.
markuswashere

Pro

>> where are [McDonald's] going to get the money to pay their employees.

McDonald's is a multinational company with assets over 30 billion dollars [1]. The taxpayers shouldn't be paying these workers, McDonald's should. The savings in welfare spending could be spent elsewhere, including protecting other businesses.

The worst thing a company could do to its business is to reduce its operation size. Particularly for companies that have assets of billions, a higher minimum wage does not reverse these companies' profitability. Only in a world where wages account for most of business expenses could this effect a company's profitability, a unprofitable businesses cannot adapt to changes, be they changes in wages, trends or resources.

>> that $1 double cheeseburger will now be around $4-ish.

This is not an economic scenario. Though I wouldn't mind unhealthy food costing more, prices are subject to their own market forces, which can be simplified into supply and demand. As long as customers want the food, and the company has the supply to source their ingredients from, the market can naturally adjust.

>> They will either have to lay off some employees

If these companies ay off workers, it won't be because of the minimum wage. If these businesses can't sustain a change to wages, in an economy where all expenses are ever-changing, they can't compete in a free market anyway. A minimum wage would not only incentivise automation, but also reward businesses who already pay a living wage to their workers by increasing their competitiveness. Market changes do not happen in a vacuum. It's crucial to note that workers are not only workers, they are also consumers. A minimum wage not only gives more money to my opponent's mother who works in a library, but also allows her to spend more money which further circulates in the economy, and motivates her working more.

[1] https://www.aboutmcdonalds.com...'s%202014%20Annual%20Report.PDF

Debate Round No. 2
35 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by markuswashere 1 year ago
markuswashere
@IKnow
I'm not arguing for an immediate raise in the minimum wage without any other changes to the economy. I'm not here in the comments to debate the idea either, but I feel obliged to give the facts and logic from economics to answer these questions. If there's any questions you would like to ask me then feel free to ask me them, but I can't continue to simply respond to points.

@Hunts
I have spelled the word "recognised" completely correctly, as that is the correct spelling in British English. Have you tried copying the entire McDonald's link instead of just clicking the hyperlink? It works for me.
Posted by Hunts 1 year ago
Hunts
Those are the costs for a BigMac
Posted by Hunts 1 year ago
Hunts
@Mark- Have you ever heard of a game called Monopoly? It's very simple and here is how it works you try to acquire the dark blue properties, let's call them Walmart. The worst properties to get are the brown ones right after go, let's call that Mark's Burgers and fries- a small business. Now being the government I would say every time you pass go you have to pay your workers a minimum of $50 to the bank. Now who would be in favour of this raise?? It would be Walmart because it knocks out competition like you, thus raising the prices for goods because when competition is decreased, prices go up. When a minimum wage is increased by any amount- using the minimum wage supply and demand graph, it shows more people want to work, but the companies are not hiring as many workers and laying some off to afford the mandatory increase. Now do you believe everyone is worth $15 an hour? Suppose they had no experience whatsoever, are they worth the proposed 15 an hour? Myself being a Canadian and having a higher wage I see the negative effects on the economy. Since 2000 when the wages were being increased teen unemployment is at a record high of 26%. You say a living wage is 15 an hour- well why not raise it to 25 so everyone is out of poverty and quite rich, because 15 would get you above the poverty line, but then why don't we want a society that pays very well such as a 20-50 dollar an hour wage and get everyone to be middle-high class? Here in Canada many people will actually go down to the USA to buy their clothes, cars, shoes etc. because the prices are so much lower there. I just looked up the cost in the USA and it is $4.72, now brace yourself in Canada we pay $8.76 without the meal! I looked and I did not see much on supply and demand proving raising the wage would kill jobs, so can you tell me where you talked about supply and demand?
Posted by IKnowWhatToDoWithMyMoney 1 year ago
IKnowWhatToDoWithMyMoney
I've been reading more and In Australia it isn't mandatory for an employer to pay you minimum wage. You are only required to make at least that once you have finished your apprenticeship or training. And at that point the employer has to choose between paying you that or firing you based on your productivity level over the given amount of time of the training period set by the employer which is agreed upon by the potential employee. Which is exactly how it should be in other countries short of completely removing minimum wage. This why they have the surplus of jobs the unskilled workforce can start off making training wages, they have to pay you over $0 and under the minimum wage until they are fully trained. With this more businesses can hire untrained workers for cheap labour until they are trained and become an asset to the business at which point they can be paid more.

And I checked the inflation conversion rates, and the cost of living expenses/goods in US compared to Australia is.

$11.23/hour in America is the same as making $17 in Australia.
Posted by IKnowWhatToDoWithMyMoney 1 year ago
IKnowWhatToDoWithMyMoney
"The living wage is not an arbitrary figure that any person wants it to be. If it really did cost $100 an hour to sustain a person's living, then that's what the living wage would be. "

Raising the wage will result in inflation and eventually you'll be at $100/hour minimum wage. LOOK AT GREECE. They raised their minimum wage like no tomorrow, and they literally carry garbage bags full of money, their money is worth so little they actually wipe their but with their money since it's cheaper than toilet paper.
Posted by IKnowWhatToDoWithMyMoney 1 year ago
IKnowWhatToDoWithMyMoney
Markus for one, Australia is a major importer/exporter. The inflation rate is 2.49%. Currently in the US it's 0, and in Canada it's 1.5. I've been reading up on it and I was correct, they have tons of jobs needing workers and the raise of wages is consistent with living costs. Minimum wage in the US and what you can buy with it is similar to what you can buy in Australia with their wages. But really it looks like they have a ton more jobs that need employee's. In US/Canada that isn't the case, the unemployment rate is rising every year. Raising the minimum wage an extra $7.75 is just ridiculous, that will absolutely guarantee a raise in inflation.
Posted by markuswashere 1 year ago
markuswashere
@IKnow
Prices are usually higher in more affluent and developed countries. If you want the cheapest possible prices, you can move to a third world country.

@Hunts
The living wage is not an arbitrary figure that any person wants it to be. If it really did cost $100 an hour to sustain a person's living, then that's what the living wage would be. The fact is that the living wage is more like $15 an hour.
If you read the debate, you would know that I do in fact talk about supply and demand.
Posted by IKnowWhatToDoWithMyMoney 1 year ago
IKnowWhatToDoWithMyMoney
Markus if that's so then they must have a massive surplus of jobs or their government hasn't instigated many expensive social services. I'm willing to bet everything there is more expensive than here otherwise so an apple here might be 25 cents while it's 75 cents there.
Posted by Hunts 1 year ago
Hunts
Myself being a teen it is near impossible for me to get a job, do you know why??? It is because I am not worth 10.20 here in Alberta let alone 15 dollars an hour! Since you have "proven" the minimum wage has NO negative effects on inflation and unemployment why wouldn't you want to give a living wage of 100 dollars an hour?? Everyone would be out of poverty! You need to understand when you force a company to pay more for their workers- workers get laid off. Just look at the supply and demand minimum wage graph but based on your view you have never seen a graph! Here in Alberta Canada where the wage will soon be 11.25 McDonalds has already automated the cashiers so you can order your own meal to save money on workers! Do you want to know what happened to the old cashiers?? They got fired!
Posted by markuswashere 1 year ago
markuswashere
The minimum wage is $17 in Australia, inflation is below 2% and unemployment is below 6%.

I don't want to use this as an argument, but I'm studying economics. It's not the nature of economics to simply be free market fundamentalists. The effects of minimum wages have been widely studied, including its effects on prices, labour, consumption and competition. It's a very prominent issue advocated in economic public policy.

If you are concerned about inflation, I recommend you look at NAIRU, the non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment. It's much broader than minimum wages, but if you're only concerned about inflation, then you might as well advocate for maximum wages so that people remain poor so that prices remain low.

I'll say it again, there's no competing against the wages of the emerging Asian markets. Tariffs are a far more sensible solution.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Stefanwaal 1 year ago
Stefanwaal
treble_clef_hkdmarkuswashereTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: During this debate it seemed like pro knew better what he was doing than con. Con's arguments were pretty weak as pro pointed out. Like how con wouldn't start earning more than her mother, because her wage would go up as well. Or how the cheeseburger would go from $1 to $4. No way prices would go up that much. Pro was more on the defence, but he also made the argument the minimum wage would get rid of unsustainable companies and help companies that are sustainable. Furthermore, pro used one source to back up one of his claims while con didn't use sources. So sources go to pro as well. I don't agree with pro on everything, but since I'm not allowed to use prior knowledge and opinions I won't.
Vote Placed by Hunts 1 year ago
Hunts
treble_clef_hkdmarkuswashereTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro spelled a few words wrong such as recognize so con got the spelling and grammar. I gave con more convincing because many of pros claims were opinion and not fact, such as.... "A minimum wage rise would give you more money to save." " Money should be spent so that it stimulates the economy." These claims had no resources to back them up, but pro also contradicted himself in saying this, he said it would give you more money to save, but he later said there is more spending money with a higher wage. So how do you do both? After running some numbers and researching one would cancel out the other by making a raise to 15 an hour. I tied the reliable sources because pros last link was non-existent.