The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
The Contender
Xantog
Con (against)

Fatal Bible Flaws

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/29/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 490 times Debate No: 105409
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (27)
Votes (0)

 

backwardseden

Pro

(taken from The Secular Web)
DT 6:5, MT 22:37, MK 12:30, LK 10:27 Love God.
DT 6:13, PS 33:8, 34:9, 111:10, 115:13, 128:1, 147:11, PR 8:13, 16:6, 19:23, 22:4, IS 8:13, LK 12:5, 1PE 2:17 Fear God.
1JN 4:18 There is no fear in love.


PR 30:5 Every word of God proves true.
1KI 22:23, 2CH 18:22, JE 4:10, EZ 14:9 God deceives some of the prophets.
JE 8:8 The scribes (copyists, editors, teachers) falsify the word.
2TH 2:11-12 God deceives the wicked (to be able to condemn them).
(Note: Not every word of God can prove true if God deceives anyone at all; teaching from the Bible cannot be trusted if the scribes falsify the word. In other words, the first reference is mutually exclusive with the other three. Thus, the Bible cannot be the perfect work of a perfect, all-powerful and loving God since one or more of the above references is obviously untrue. Note also: Some versions use the word "persuade" rather than "deceives." The context makes clear, however, that deception is involved.)


EZ 20:25 God says that he intentionally gave out bad laws. (This means that God-given laws or commandments are sometimes suspect.)


LK 1:26-38 The angel who appears to Mary to foretell the birth of Jesus says that Jesus will be given the throne of David, that he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and that his kingdom will never end. (None of this took place nor can it now be fulfilled.)


MT 16:28, MK 9:1, LK 9:27 Jesus says that some of his listeners will not taste death before he comes again in his kingdom. This was said almost 2000 years ago.
(Note: This passage and many others indicate that Jesus was to come again in a relatively short period of time and not just "quickly" as present day Biblicists assert. All of his listeners are now dead, yet Jesus has not come again in his kingdom. All of the alleged words of Jesus put forth in the Bible are therefore suspect.)


MK 16:17-18 A believer can handle snakes or drink poison and not experience any harm.
(Note: Many unfortunate believers have died as a result of handling snakes and/or drinking poison; this kind of assertion negates the Bible as a useful guidebook for life. It should also be noted that the oldest manuscripts of Mark end at MK 16:8; as the footnotes to The New Oxford Annotated Bible put it, verses 9-20 cannot have been part of the original text of Mark.)


Indeed since these are true Fatal Bible Flaws, the bible is unreadable. So that brings this debate to the RULES: Prove that the bible IS READABLE, UNDERSTANDABLE by thus countering the fatal flaws as correctly listed above. There will be more fatal flaws/ mistakes in the bible as it is supposed to be perfect, and so is its god, Sorry they ain't, in which you as a debater would be required to counter as well.



dsjpk5 will not be allowed to participate in the voting process.
Xantog

Con

Hello, I would like to thank my opponent for waiting patiently while I did my research.

To restate the rules: I need to show the the bible is not contradictory to itself.
The instigators main qualms are:
1. PR 30:5 & 1KI 22:23, 2CH 18:22, JE 4:10, EZ 14:9 2TH 2:11-12;Suggesting God has lied
2. JE 8:8; Suggesting scribes have falsified the word of God
3. EZ 20:25; Suggesting God has put forth malign laws
4. LK 1:26-38; Suggesting an angel of God has lied
5. MT 16:28, MK 9:1, LK 9:27; Suggesting Jesus has lied
6. MK 16:17-18; Suggesting that the quote means Christians can actually overcome poison and venom and that because of that the bible has lied.
7. DT 6:5, MT 22:37, MK 12:30, LK 10:27 Love God;DT 6:13, PS 33:8, 34:9, 111:10, 115:13, 128:1, 147:11, PR 8:13, 16:6, 19:23, 22:4, IS 8:13, LK 12:5, 1PE 2:17 Fear God;1JN 4:18 There is no fear in love.

1. Proverbs 30:5, 'Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.'
A. 1KI 22:23, 'Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.' The first part shows God had an indirect role in this deception, not that God actually said something in-pure. We are not to conclude from this that it was an evil spirit, or Satan, as some have suggested. Such spirits are not God"s agents. The lying spirit which was sent to foster the false notions which a long course of previous warnings had had no effect in driving away. Now therefore Ahab is given up to them. God sends him "a strong delusion, that he should believe a lie'. This strong delusion was meant to save the Israelis as Ahab was a crazy king and needed to be removed. God did not lie here.
B. 2CH 18:22, same scenario. God's plan needed to be fulfilled thus he sent a spirit to aid him in his plan. He did not lie. He only stopped providing true visions to the prophets to remove the king.
C. JE 4:10, 'Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely you have greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, You shall have peace; whereas the sword reaches to the soul.' This quote has Jeremiah charge the lord with deceit. Jeremiah at the time is under strong emotion as many false prophets have run rampant through Jerusalem and thus Jeremiah believes it is God's fault. Of course it is just people pretending to be the word of God. Can't trust people.
D. EZ 14:9, 'And if the prophet be deceived when he has spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand on him, and will destroy him from the middle of my people Israel.' This means the Lord has refused to allow an answer through the prophet to the hypocritical enquirer; but if the prophet, by giving the desired answer, allows himself to become a partaker of the sin which God abhors, then God will treat him according to that general method of dealing with sin which is here described. Essentially: If the prophet under the guidance of God were to lie, God would remove that prophet as recompense. God did not lie here, the prophet did.
E. 2TH 2:11-12, '11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.' This is not God lying to anyone. This is God punishing a sinner by not allowing them the guidance of God. If the wicked were to allow God to guide them they would not have to stumble around in the dark. God did not lie here.
2. Jeremiah 8:8, 'How do you say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? See, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.'
A.First I would like to point out a flaw in my opponents argument: If scribes were to lie about the word of God, they would not include this quote. The reason this was included was to warn against including false prophets into the bible. The Jewish people were admirably very strict about who was a true prophet. They would kill and burn false prophets...here's a link for more info on how the distinguished real from false: http://www.jewfaq.org...
3. Ezekiel 20:25, 'Why I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live'
A. This some understand of the ceremonial law, as if it were given purely to be a check and restraint to that perverse people, consisting of numerous rites and observances, many of which had no intrinsic good in them. "But I conceive," says Lowth, "the statutes here spoken of to be of a different nature from those mentioned Ezekiel 20:11, because they have a quite contrary character given of them; and therefore I take the words to import, that God, in a just judgment for their disobedience to his own laws, gave them up to a reprobate mind, and suffered them to walk after the idolatrous and impious customs of the heathen around them. And whereas, by obeying the laws and ordinances which he had given them, they might have lived happily, (Ezekiel 20:11,) they became slaves to the vile and cruel practices of the heathen idolatries, so as to offer up their very children in sacrifice to idols, to the utter destruction of themselves and their posterity, Ezekiel 20:26.
4. LK 1:26-38, (the verse is very long and my opponent summarizes it efficiently)
A. Jesus' apostles had that same exact question too! Matthew 27:11-14, 11 Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the King of the Jews?" Jesus said, "You have said so." 12 But when he was accused by the chief priests and elders, he gave no answer. 13 Then Pilate said to him, "Do you not hear how many things they testify against you?" 14 But he gave him no answer, not even to a single charge, so that the governor was greatly amazed.
B. Now you may ask, 'but why did the angel say Jesus would be king?' And to that I say good question! Here's why: Jesus is to not be a human king, but a God king. A God king does not rule in the physical realm. Proof of his kingdom can be seen
by the followers of Jesus Christ. Christianity is the largest kingdom by far, boasting 2.2 billion followers of Christianity alone, ignoring the other Abrahamic religions.
5. MT 16:28, MK 9:1, LK 9:27, What Jesus meant by this is that Christians will not have eternal death until his return..being the end of times when most Christians will deny him, Jesus will deny them before God.
6. Mark 16:17-18,
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
A. If you understand religion is not science then you will know not to take biblical philosophy literally in this quote. By serpents it means devils and/or demons and by drinking poison it may mean imbibing anything detrimental to the Christian religion, as well as when it says heal the sick, it would mean healing the wicked or atheistic of their beliefs.
7. DT 6:5, MT 22:37, MK 12:30, LK 10:27 Love God;DT 6:13, PS 33:8, 34:9, 111:10, 115:13, 128:1, 147:11, PR 8:13, 16:6, 19:23, 22:4, IS 8:13, LK 12:5, 1PE 2:17 Fear God;1JN 4:18 There is no fear in love.
A. Looking into the context of the quotes, Fearing God means to respect Him. The same way you would 'fear' or respect your parents or someone of higher authority. When the quotes say there is no fear in love, it means in the sense of a dictatorship. The Jewish and Greek language has different words when it comes to fear. The Latin languages have only one word for many types of fear, that word being fear. I understand how that can come off as hypocritical.

I would again like to thank my opponent for their patience and wish him the best luck.
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Debate Round No. 5
27 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Xantog 4 months ago
Xantog
according to @backwardseden 's logic I should feel stood up as it has been 13 hours since I posted my argument and he has yet to reply...
Posted by Throwback 4 months ago
Throwback
You believe this guy? I figured out what the 15% is he keeps ranting about- it's our agreement on the Big Issues! I'm ignorant for only agreeing with him on 15% of the issues. I would contend I am ignorant for having unwittingly agreed with him too much. I suspect, yes, you wasted your efforts in providing proofs of his error. He is a wild eyed fanatic and will likely just quit.
Posted by Xantog 4 months ago
Xantog
Oh boy, lets hope a few hours of research didn't just go down the drain *crosses fingers*
Posted by backwardseden 4 months ago
backwardseden
@Throwback - Didn't read it. I cannot respect a barfing psychopathic insect like you. Also how can anyone truly respect a jimmy lockjaw like you who has a --- 15% ---, wow 15%, gee that shows the universe of your true psychopathic character, rating on the big issues? I'm so very glad I made your noche a little bit better. Please do not post me again unless you have something intelligent to say. You? Intelligent? Ha!
Posted by backwardseden 4 months ago
backwardseden
@Xantog - Just as I thought. The words of "I don't know" are poison to christians. Your god is NOT perfect. Sorry. That is so ridiculously easy proved in the verses. And you'd know that IF you were to have known anything at all about your god, religion and bible. Have fun digging through the dogma that is your bankrupt, immoral, decaying god religion and bible. Bye.
Posted by Throwback 4 months ago
Throwback
@backwardseden, just fyi, the hung debate you forfeit has been released, so I can now accept the next debate you post which I find interesting. Please come up with something worthwhile!
Posted by Xantog 4 months ago
Xantog
Okay. Good luck in the future.
Posted by backwardseden 4 months ago
backwardseden
@Xantog - OK so I a assuming that you are sticking to "I understood the bible verses you gave me," Since this is the case, rather than you saying "I don't know" you have 20 minutes to come up with your argument, otherwise I will forfeit the debate and you can win for all I care. Big whoop.
Posted by Throwback 4 months ago
Throwback
Another honorable mention from the Great One. I feel so privileged!!
Posted by Xantog 4 months ago
Xantog
The word "God" has connotations of being perfect so of course the idea of God being imperfect hurts my conception of him . I"m not perfect. I prefer to take my time with topics and get some good sources. You must learn patience.
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