The Instigator
Tommy.leadbetter
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
SPENCERJOYAGE14
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

Fatness !

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
SPENCERJOYAGE14
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/10/2014 Category: Health
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 825 times Debate No: 45592
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (1)

 

Tommy.leadbetter

Pro

Although the culture surrounding models and 'looks' in the media is a cancer that causes more suffering than we first think - I don't believe 'fat' people should be portrayed as attractive and normal in the media. I'm not cruel or heartless, but a tiny degree of stigmatization (which exists without help from the media) is not entirely a bad thing, for 'fat' is not desirable, not attractive, indeed it suggests a personality trait that is lazy and/or greedy and/or ignorant. This does not mean that I think more bad of fat people than I do anyone else with a problem, indeed as a smoker how could I? But I fear that there is a movement amongst some people, to treat being fat like being gay or being a Goth or emo or some other subculture. I think that we must not forget (in the hype of political correctness) that being fat is bad, undesirable, and suggests negative aspects about personality. It certainly should not be encouraged to make fat attractive or even acceptable, it should be treat like a disease and a problem like drug addiction and most certainly not encouraged !
SPENCERJOYAGE14

Con


Since Pro has done so I will now submit my case as Con.



Fact one: Obesity is a disease.


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com...


“Obesity has been officially recognized as a disease by the American Medical Association, an action that could put more emphasis on the health condition by doctors and insurance companies in order to minimize its effects.”



Fact two: Only 8% of woman have a “perfect” body shape.


http://iml.jou.ufl.edu...


“The Independent, a UK publication, only 8 percent of women now have an hourglass figure.”



Fact three: One in 200 American women suffers from anorexia.


http://www.state.sc.us...



Fact four: The western culture has a harsh definition of “perfect body.”


http://jezebel.com...


http://www.divinecaroline.com...


Adele, Aishwarya Rai, Ananda Marchildon, Christina Hendricks, Jennifer Lawrence, Jennifer Love Hewitt, Jessica Simpson, Kate Winslet, and Heidi Klum have all been deemed too fat.



Harm 1: People with diseases who are attractive will be deemed unworthy for media.


http://www.cbsnews.com...


Talia Castellano was an attractive 13 year old who inspired many and died of cancer last year. Girls like her may have their dreams shattered as result of the logical conclusion that woman with diseases are not attractive.



Harm 2: If only 8 out of every 100 have a perfect body and the rest are deemed “too fat” women may begin to self-harm and starve themselves.



Harm 3: More women will suffer from anorexia and potentially commit suicide because woman are afraid they are “too fat.”



Harm 4: Women who are deemed “too fat” may suffer from rom severe depression.



Because of all the facts and harms based on Pro’s logic vote Con.


Now to open up the rebuttal period over to Pro.


Debate Round No. 1
Tommy.leadbetter

Pro

Okay so firstly, I don't know what the definition is for disease, and more importantly, it is not relevant. What matters is that people don't get fat against their will (most the time). Nor does it even creep up on them like things such as cancer or strokes may do. By this I mean people are aware that they are overweight and it happens gradually. So you seem to be implying that fat people have no choice in their condition, this is frankly wrong. So although the American Medical association define it as a disease, that does not change the fact that it is self inflicted. So your point, though theoretically true, has no relevance to this discussion. People get fat when they eat more calories than they burn, simple. Eating too much, and eating the wrong type of foods, often reflect psychological problems and so are not just a 'hobby' or a 'choice' they mean more than that for some people. Also, overweightness reflects problems in society and culture, again not a inevitable 'disease' or life choice, a problem.

You say only 8% of women have the 'perfect' shape. You need to tell me why this is relevant for me to respond to it. But I assume you are meaning that only 8% of women aren't fat and so magazines not showing fat people will make everyone depressed. 1. 92% of women are not 'fat'. I am not saying only have the 'top' 8%, I am saying don't glamorize fatness. Also, the reason why only 8% of women have this 'perfect' shape, and so many people are 'chubby' or 'plump', is not because of some natural phenomenon indicating that 50% of women (or whatever) are classed as overweight - it is because of bad practice in the culture. Again it is 'self' inflicted. Not what people typically consider a disease.

You say people with diseases who are attractive will be deemed unworthy of the media. I don't know how to respond to this, that's not at all what I am saying... I have nothing against people with diseases being on T.V, indeed it is good to open peoples eyes to other lives, also it helps other sufferers feel less alone. But these are conditions such as neurological conditions or personality disorders or things which hinder their physical life. Heroin addiction is classed by some as a disease, but one would not try to make an addict look acceptable and okay just to make other addicts feel more okay about their problem. And before you say I cannot compare the two, I can. Being overweight kills far more people than heroin and it is more dangerous to be overweight than to smoke, drink, take cocaine/ecstasy and marijuana. Also you may argue that these things are also shunned because of the lifestyle they typically associate with - but marijuana at least is smoked in many cultures without problems, I have yet to find a time or culture where being fat is respectable or is the result of, of in association with, respectful behaviour. It always requires laziness or greed or ignorance. (not to mention mental weaknesses and problems).

You continue to drive this point of depression, saying, you need to show fat people so other fat people don't feel bad about their condition. No, we need to takle the factors that cause over eating and bad eating habbits, such as bad foods in the market, depressive lifestyle etc. The way forward is not to glamourize fat, but to eradicate it.
SPENCERJOYAGE14

Con


I will now clarify my point because it is said that it is confusing.


Being obese is disease, it doesn’t mark who you are, your self-worth, or how great you can act or sing. It is relevant to this because it is a fact. Now a fact is not an argument in whole but it adds to your argument itself. So my point “being theoretically true” is relevant to this discussion.


I would like to say that my opponent concedes that not all people are fat because they want to be, by saying, “What matters is that people don't get fat against their will (most the time).” He is proving my point that not all people choose to be that way and it is therefore a disease.


My opponent says, “People get fat when they eat more calories than they burn, simple. Eating too much, and eating the wrong type of foods, often reflect psychological problems and so are not just a 'hobby' or a 'choice' they mean more than that for some people.” Now this is not relevant to this debate. The debate is on why fat people should not be in the media, not if it is a hobby or a choice. My opponent has not fulfilled his burden of proof by showing any substantial evidence proving that having “fat” people in the media hurts anyone.


My opponent also said, “Also, overweightness reflects problems in society and culture, again not a inevitable 'disease' or life choice, a problem.” Yes, it does reflect on our society it shows that not all a person is are looks, and they are not just for pleasure, it shows that they are a human being striving to show to us what they are going through and that people with diseases can overcome their outward appearance and look to who they are and what their talents are. He never proved why the reflection on our culture is a bad thing and I have shown you how it is actually turned into a good thing.


It looks as if I should clarify this point also. I am saying that 92% of women are not what media shows as perfect. If you glamorize people who are perfect without showing that the other 92% are beautiful or talented in their own ways you are saying that they have little self-worth.


“You say people with diseases who are attractive will be deemed unworthy of the media. I don't know how to respond to this, that's not at all what I am saying...” There is no response, this is what your logic implies.


“I have nothing against people with diseases being on T.V, indeed it is good to open peoples eyes to other lives, also it helps other sufferers feel less alone.” Good then there is nothing wrong with showing people who have weight issues that they can be beautiful.


“But these are conditions such as neurological conditions or personality disorders or things which hinder their physical life.” You have shown no proof why obese people don’t have neurological conditions or personality disorders or things which hinder their physical life. My opponent has again brought up no facts on this point; he also has not proven that medical doctors believe this. This can be discounted.


“Heroin addiction is classed by some as a disease, but one would not try to make an addict look acceptable and okay just to make other addicts feel more okay about their problem.” My opponent has again brought up no facts on this point; he also has not proven that medical doctors believe this. This can be discounted.


“And before you say I cannot compare the two, I can.” Of course you can, you could cuss me off if you wanted too but that doesn’t make it right. Now another thing you shouldn’t do is bring up assertions without any facts backing up your claim… My opponent has again brought up no facts on this point. This point can be discounted.


“Being overweight kills far more people than heroin and it is more dangerous to be overweight than to smoke, drink, take cocaine/ecstasy and marijuana.” Proof? You must bring up proof for the things you say. My opponent has again brought up no facts on this point. This can be discounted.


“I have yet to find a time or culture where being fat is respectable or is the result of, of in association with, respectful behaviour.” My opponent has again brought up no facts on why this is not true, just because he has never seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. This can be discounted, but first let me educate you on this. :) It is a widely known fact that in Africa there are many fathers and husbands that cannot provide their families with very much food. Now when a woman gets fat it is a sign of plenty, abundance, and good health. So yes, there are cultures that believe being fat is a good thing.


“You continue to drive this point of depression, saying, you need to show fat people so other fat people don't feel bad about their condition.” Yes, that’s what I’m saying. I’m also saying that fat people have every right to be in media as anyone else, and that fat people are worth something and have talents that should also be brought to life. You have not proven why this is false, this can be discounted.


“No, we need to takle the factors that cause over eating and bad eating habbits, such as bad foods in the market, depressive lifestyle etc. The way forward is not to glamourize fat, but to eradicate it.” That’s what we have organic food and Michelle Obama for. Also, you can’t just take companies out of production, just because you feel like it.


I’d like you all to remember what I said in my first round that Jenifer Lawrence has been deemed too fat, if she has who will be next?



Now for all of you who have skimmed through this debate I would like to fill out your ballot for you.


Grammar and spelling: Flow Con. Pro has misspelled the words: habits, tackle, and fat. And used the incorrect form of many words such as take and used the word peoples instead of people’s.


Conduct: Flow Pro. He has been a great opponent and hasn’t been picking on grammar or facts.


Sources: Flow Con, Pro had blind assertions with no facts.


And last but not least, Arguments: Flow Con because Pro has not fulfilled his burden of proof by showing why beautiful fat people hurt our country and he also conceded that not all people are fat because they are lazy.


Debate Round No. 2
Tommy.leadbetter

Pro

Okay so I was lazy on the evidence, still the fact that the first thing that you say is that there is no evidence, suggests that the point put you on the defensive. Because you didn't always address what I had said, it suggests that if I did present the evidence, you may of had trouble with it. But I accept, I will present more evidence. Though many points are generalisations and philisophical or moral concepts that have little evidence available to me right now, also it is more supportive evidence than proof, as proof is sometimes impossible.

So I will go through your answer piece by piece.

Fat is a choice. Call it a disease if you like, non the less, it is a choice. Fact. There are very rare cases of genetic conditions that cause people to be fat, very rare being the key phrase here. (1). So when we are talking about DISEASE, don't mislead the audience: Oxford definition: a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury. With this definition many things can fit under this classification. For example, alcohol poisoning: 1, 'disorder of structure of function in the human' yes. 2, 'especially on the produces specific symptoms, acts in specific location' yes. 'Not simply the direct result of physical injury' yes. And so definitions are man made and broad, so I don't agree that just because it can 'fit' the description, that it counts as the same thing as everything else under that category. There are many similarities I know, but your classing it as a disease because of one (mislead) understanding of 'disease'-that it is inevitable and the person is an innocent victim. This is for the sole reason that you are saying its a disease in order to make us feel more sorry for them, because they are innocent victims. You are using the word 'disease' to make it sound almost like a sexuality issue or a race issue. Obese people, in my experience, will accept responsibility and they should not be ashamed because we mostly are weak people. Fat people are just unfortunate enough to have a weakness that has a effect on their appearance.

Your second paragraph I answer above. Though I will add that I say (most the time) because you cannot rule everything out 100% if you are serious about science. It is mearly a humbleness, in practice, as if said above, people are fat because they have eaten too much bad stuff with not enough exercise. A tiny fraction has genetic disorders.

Your third paragraph. So the statement you repeat at the top you do not dispute. So we agree that's accurate. You say it is not relevant to the dabate, well its relevant to your point about it being a disease like I have said above. You catergorize it as a disease, because diseases have an understanding by the general public to be inevitable. Therefore your point about glamorising them stands legitimate because its not their fault and you feel sorry for them and they shouldn't be discriminated because of something they have no control over. This is why the point WAS relevant because it explains why it is self inflicted and why your labelling of disease was an attempt to mislead the audience.

Also, still on your third paragraph. I do not provide any evidence for fat people harming anyone when in the media, because that is not what I am trying to say. Glamorising fatness, as opposed to fighting it, is not the best choice. Nor can you do both. We want fat people to hate being fat lets be real! anyone who loves the person enough to want to see them grow old does anyway. Fatness being glamorised and made to look cool or at least totally acceptable like homosexuality and racial groups is not right. This could lead many overweight people remaining overweight, this could be because it could serve as an "identity" for example.

Your fourth paragraph: I don't think you fully understood me there? The fact that people are overweight, reflects the characteristics of the society that lead to this. Them being, bad food education, stigma attached to "greens" and attitude towards sweets, unfulfilling jobs and shallow materialistic society that lead to depression and thus addiction (which is fatness, as addiction to food is what causes fatness), alcohol culture, not shameful to be lazy (to some). So how does the fact that people are getting ill from food reflect something good about the society? it doesn't make sense too me... you make this speech about liberalism and rights of the (diseased) but it has no relevance that I can see. I am not saying if someone is funny and qualified but fat, that one should offer the job to the same man who is just skinnier. I am saying we should not be pushing for, and prioritizing putting fat people on T.V in some political correctness frenzy. As fat is a problem that needs help and prevention, not more acceptance. More acceptance = more fatness More fatness = more death. Not good. And I could find evidence suggesting that if something is accepted then people will feel more comfortable doing it, I just take that as obvious.

5th paragraph. I am not saying show the top 8% only. I am saying we should show the middle 80% but also you must remember that its not 8% of women are skinny, its 100% of women are a healthy (quite skinny) normal size, and their diet can change that. If 60% of women in society are obese, should we show more obese people? No, we should not deliberately show more fat people to make the fat population feel better about their life deteriorating addiction. I don't fully understand what your point is on this paragraph so excuse me..

6th. Don't understand what your trying to say here.

7th. No there isn't anything wrong with that. We should all know that anyways, I don't understand why not deliberately glamorizing fatness shows that they are not beautiful.

8th. When I say people with neurological or personality disorders I mean people who might normally be considered dangerous or completely retarded to the point of where talking to them was pointless. And so showing their real self is good to decrease stigma and help sufferers belong. It could be any other life effecting conditions, such as multiple-sclerosis, multiple personality, schizophrenia etc. Fatness is fatness, they may have a 'personality disorder' its called laziness, greediness etc. The are fat because they where to greedy or lazy to stop it, its not fair to put a sufferer of schizophrenia or multiple sclerosis in this same basket. Indeed its a cop out for a fat person to call it a disease, it reduces responsibility.

Your 9th. What? its a hypothetical situation what facts could I of possibly got? Answer the question and stop avoiding them all, it makes you look desperate when all you can do is discount on the basis of no evidence. (bare in mind I have no evidence for something's because they are intuitive and others are just hard to find) the points still stand though and have not been disputed. Not to mention the spelling errors of mine you so intelligently pointed out. Now that's clutching at straws if ever I saw it.

Your 10th. I think I need you actually explain why they cannot be compared based the reasons that I gave you for why they can be compared.

Again with the avoidance, proof is here (paragraph 11)

Paragraph 12. Ye it might be seen as respectful to be fat in a starving country of course! it shows you have money and you are probably more healthy than the others who are starving. It is not respectable, solely to be fat. Its what it says about you, in that culture that is respected. Not the fact that they are lazy and greedy.

paragraph 12, yes health foods are for talking obesity. So what, I don't get why you are saying that? I would if I was in charge yes.

1. Hu F. Genetic predictors of obesity. In: Hu F, ed. Obesity Epidemiology. New York City: Oxford University Press, 2008; 437""460.
SPENCERJOYAGE14

Con


“the fact that the first thing that you say is that there is no evidence, suggests that the point put you on the defensive.” Not exactly, but since you are not credible we can’t take your word for it when you talk about fact.


“it suggests that if I did present the evidence, you may of had trouble with it.” No sir, you just have to have evidence. You carry the burden of proof; you have to prove why it is bad to have fat people made to look beautiful.


“Though many points are generalisations and philisophical or moral concepts that have little evidence available to me right now, also it is more supportive evidence than proof, as proof is sometimes impossible.” You have to prove why it hurts.


“Fat is a choice.” Yes, sometimes it is, doesn’t mean some fat people are beautiful.


“Call it a disease if you like, non the less, it is a choice.” Not all the time.


“There are very rare cases of genetic conditions that cause people to be fat, very rare being the key phrase here.” Yes, it does happen, so you are proving my point.


“So when we are talking about DISEASE, don't mislead the audience.” I’m not misleading anyone nor am I lying. I showed what the American Medical Association has said. Attack the arguments not the character of the debater.


“And so definitions are man made and broad,” So are you saying you can only have a definition if it comes from God? You just brought up a definition…


“so I don't agree that just because it can 'fit' the description,”Just because Eddy doesn’t agree that the sun is in the sky doesn’t make it any less true.


“There are many similarities I know, but your classing it as a disease because of one (mislead) understanding of 'disease'-that it is inevitable and the person is an innocent victim.” I’m not misleading anyone. I’m quoting the American Medical Association.


“This is for the sole reason that you are saying its a disease in order to make us feel more sorry for them,” Uh, no it’s a fact…


“You are using the word 'disease' to make it sound almost like a sexuality issue or a race issue.” Um, I’m not racist… I sure hope you aren’t ether.


“Obese people, in my experience, will accept responsibility and they should not be ashamed because we mostly are weak people.” Uh, I agree they should not be ashamed but by this debate that’s what you are doing.


Nobody should be discriminated.


“Fatness being glamorised and made to look cool or at least totally acceptable like homosexuality and racial groups is not right.” Uh, you have brought up no reason to believe that fatness is glamorized.


“The fact that people are overweight, reflects the characteristics of the society that lead to this.” No, you did not clearify, I was showing how that was good.


“I am not saying show the top 8% only.” That’s what the media does, anything other than the 8% is “too fat.”


“We should all know that anyways, I don't understand why not deliberately glamorizing fatness shows that they are not beautiful.” By this debate you are implying they are ugly…


“completely retarded to the point of where talking to them was pointless.” A) That’s a horrible thing to say and B) That’s terrible.


“it makes you look desperate when all you can do is discount on the basis of no evidence.” Um, that’s really sweet of you to say. Also, you look desperate too… “I have no evidence for something's because they are intuitive” Uh, so you are intuitive enough to show this hurts society? You never explained that. “the points still stand though and have not been disputed.” No they don’t, they had no backing on them and they hold no weight to this round.


“Not to mention the spelling errors of mine you so intelligently pointed out. Now that's clutching at straws if ever I saw it.” Uh, what? Even RoyLatham does that…


“I think I need you actually explain why they cannot be compared based the reasons that I gave you for why they can be compared.” I don’t understand.


“Again with the avoidance, proof is here that proves nothing,” all it says is fat is bad, not why it is bad or why it affects our country as a whole.


Vote Con.


Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by ESocialBookworm 3 years ago
ESocialBookworm
You should do a debate on whether or not there should be a "fat" Barbie doll. There has been a lot of chaos and confusion on that topic.
Posted by Jonbonbon 3 years ago
Jonbonbon
Yeah, you're kind of fighting for a lost cause bro.
Posted by SPENCERJOYAGE14 3 years ago
SPENCERJOYAGE14
Um, you know what you say in the comments does not affect the votes?
Posted by Tommy.leadbetter 3 years ago
Tommy.leadbetter
If obesity was a disease then there would not be cultural differences. For example America vs China, Americans have a statistic of 36% obesity whereas China only have a 5%. This indicates that it is not a genetic disorder fact and is down to life style choices. Which proves if portrayed in the media as something that is okay this epidemic will not change. People Will continue to think it is okay to live an unhealthy unnatural life style.
Posted by SPENCERJOYAGE14 3 years ago
SPENCERJOYAGE14
Ended.
Posted by Jonbonbon 3 years ago
Jonbonbon
I'm commenting to keep posted when the debate ends.
Posted by Tommy.leadbetter 3 years ago
Tommy.leadbetter
Not many, but there are movements of people demanding that pictures in magazines should portray fat people rather than supermodels. I couldn't be more supportive of removing models, but I'm dubious about glamorizing fatness and treating it like anything but a problem.
Posted by Jifpop09 3 years ago
Jifpop09
Who portrays fat people as attractive? They aren't, but they are normal.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Jonbonbon 3 years ago
Jonbonbon
Tommy.leadbetterSPENCERJOYAGE14Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: I didn't see any S&G errors worth minding. I also didn't really see any conduct problems on either side. However, con actually provided evidence and linked them to relevant harms, while pro really had nothing to ground himself in. He also got into red herring arguments. Good job to con. She wins both arguments and sources.