The Instigator
Tommy.leadbetter
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
shockwave188
Con (against)
Winning
2 Points

Fatness

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
shockwave188
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/21/2014 Category: Society
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 530 times Debate No: 46446
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (7)
Votes (1)

 

Tommy.leadbetter

Pro

All this talk about being happy with your 'fat' self is not right. Wikihow says " "Fat" is a word that has a negative connotation, and it shouldn't! It should be a descriptive term, like "blonde," "cute," "short," et cetera. I don't believe this message is correct nor should it be given. Fatness is naturally stigmatized and stopping that will be almost impossible, also all this effort should be put towards fighting fatness. For we should aim for a nation of slim people, and not encourage or accept without acceptation, people who are overweight.
shockwave188

Con

I was confused by your round one presentation. I looked in the comments and found that you had clarified your argument and am using that to respond to. I hope that is ok, if it is not I would be happy to respond to your round 1 presentation instead. The comment that I am referring to is,"That we should not try to move towards accepting fat people as beautiful. We should not encourage fat people to 'feel comfortable' about their size, as we are trying to do. The mission should be to eradicate fatness not accept and appreciate it. It is a problem and says negative things about people who suffer from it, it is not a 'style' or 'lifestyle' like being a goth or being gay, it is a weakness and a essentially a shameful thing". Before I start presenting my argument I would like to apologize for the rude comments. I think it is good you are expressing your opinion and that there was no reason for them to be disrespectful to you and your argument. I promise I will be civil in this debate and that as long as you treat this debate seriously that I will too.

Unless you have a better way of defining fat I will define fat as having 20% or an excess of 20% body fat. According to source 1 69.2% of Americans are overweight. Although people such as body builders who have so much muscle that it technically makes them overweight are included in this set of data, I think that the number of them is not substantial enough to skew the data. And that the majority of these people are overweight due to high fat percentages. I am using this data to justify my claim that America is fat. I am presenting this because some people believe that what is ok is set by the majority. If you believe in that then that means it is ok to be fat.

I believe very much in the way of thinking described by this quote by Oliver Holmes, "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins". I take this to mean that one can do whatever one wants as long as it does not negatively effect another. As long as said fat people are not harming you I think they should be free to do what they please. Similarly to you and your smoking.

Continuing on the similarity between you and fat people, you mentioned that being fat is a weakness. You then go on to declare that you are just as bad if not worse then someone with an eating disorder or someone with a lazy personality. I take this to mean that you mean are just as bad or worse as a fat person. If this is true then why should society not move towards the acceptance of people who smoke? I am curious to hear your rationale.

Why do you smoke? Does your way of life practically force you to? For some fat people that is the case. They have low income, sedentary jobs that leave little time to exercise and little money to buy healthy foods. I'm sure we have all seen the one dollar hamburger and the two dollar salad. Eating is well is proven to be more expensive. For some people they have essentially no way of escaping their lifestyle that makes them fat. Can you honestly say the same for people who smoke?

I think it is prudent to leave my first round argument at that. I look forward to see your response. It seems that this debate was set up without thinking it through completely. If that is the case and you do not wish to continue I think that is perfectly exceptable. Unlike others I think it is easy to make mistakes when creating debates and think that it is better to stop and start again rather than continue digging oneself into a hole. If you would like to forfeit the debate I think that would not be dishonorable. Whatever you decide to do I wish you luck and look forward to seeing your decision.

Sources:
1 http://www.cdc.gov...
Debate Round No. 1
Tommy.leadbetter

Pro

I accept that you find it offensive and I apologize for any hurt I may have caused. But this is a debate website and you must be prepared for such comments, for if there is ever a time and place for such remarks, its a debate website. Also I was speaking the truth, you must not take this so personally. 'Shameful' is the word that offended you most I assume. This is theoretically true, it doesn't have to be severe shame to be under the definition of 'shameful.' I go on to explain the nature of my definition by accepting myself as even worse, so I am trying to get across that I am not against people that are fat at all. I am pointing out that overeating and lack of exercise, are not desirable traits, indeed even 'bad' traits. So I use the word 'shameful' to highlight the fact that it should not be something we are 'proud' of. Which is what the whole argument is about, as I believe this is what some people want.

Your first point: "some people believe that what is ok is set by the majority. If you believe in that then that means it is ok to be fat."

Yes but I don't believe that. The majority used to endorse slavery. I guess that old saying your told when your a child sums up the rebuttal to your argument; "if your friends jumped of a cliff would you do it!?"

Also, another reason why 65% of Americans being fat is not normal, is simple biology. We are not designed to be as fat as them people, these people are more at risk of illness and a shorter life expectancy. So fatness should be the image of ill health and badness, it is a sign of bad health and 'disease' almost in a person.

Your second point: ". As long as said fat people are not harming you I think they should be free to do what they please"

I agree with this entirely. I don't mean fat people who are fit for the job should be turned down, I mean we should not intentionally move towards accepting fat before trying to reduce it. Kids today arnt concerned with their health and if they are fat and they see loads of respectable. cool, attractive fat people in the media they will not try to loose it or see it as a bad thing. They will let their children grow up fat, which in 9/10 cases they will ,if their parents and images in the media are also. This is also because being fat is much like, indeed it is, a drug addiction. Its not as simple as just some people want want to be fat, many people will be lured in.

Your third point. "I take this to mean that you mean are just as bad or worse as a fat person. If this is true then why should society not move towards the acceptance of people who smoke? I am curious to hear your rationale." I don't entirely understand your point, but I think smoking should definitely not be encouraged and indeed it is not.

Your fourth point. "For some people they have essentially no way of escaping their lifestyle that makes them fat."

I don't agree. People don't work more than 8 hours a day 5 days a week, there is plenty of time for exercise and always time to make healthy food. Nobody if forced to be fat by anything bar their own personality. Granted it can be made difficult by society, and I believe society encourages fatness massively. But non the less your point that some people are literally 'forced' into being fat is simply not true.

My Point.

Overeating is easier than eating properly in this society, we are exercising less and less, and if we start trying to glamorize fatness I fear an epidemic. For fat parents are more likely to have fat children and so the problem could grow and grow.

Thank you
shockwave188

Con

You misunderstand me. I was talking about the people who were insulting you in the comments. I was attempting to stick up for you. I'm not offended in the slightest.

Would your friends jump off a cliff:
I get what I think you're are trying to convey however I don't think that is what I was trying to convey. My point was not that if your friends jumped off a cliff you should to. More of if your friends jumped off a cliff you should realize that generally there is reasoning behind their actions and that it is their decision. Moreover the saying of jumping off a cliff has a lot of different views to it. Generally it is thought that they are doing it just because, however for example during 9/11 people jumped out of the windows because the alternative is being burned or suffocated to death which are both much more painful. My point being that sometimes jumping off the cliff is a good idea.

Image of ill health and badness:
I highly disagree with this. Again I see what you're getting at however look at the NFL lineman or rugby players or heavyweight fighters like Fedor Emelianenko. They are fat, however they are still much more in shape than a majority of the population. They lift amazing amounts of weight and can still out sprint me and I think you as well. Therefore I think there are much better examples of ill health then fat people. I think the people mentioned above will outlive you and more than possibly me. I also did not understand what you said here, " another reason why 65% of Americans being fat is not normal, is simple biology. We are not designed to be as fat as them people". If 65% of Americans are fat then that makes being fat normal. Also I think that being fat is not some miraculous adaptation. I think just about every human and animal can become "fat". Therefore we are technically designed to be fat.

Reducing instead of accepting:
I think that at least in the U.S we realize that being fat is not a good thing in most cases and do try and reduce it. However we see that this is a reasonably good problem to have compared to ones that we could be facing. Not only is it a strong part of American ideology to being accepting but if we really crack down on fitness such as like in the Soviet Union and soon possibly Russia much worse problems will spawn from it.

Kids today aren't concerned with their health:
I live in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Colorado is the healthiest state and the springs one of the healthiest cities in Colorado. Thus I am in a non normal situation regarding health. At my school and in my community fitness is a decent portion of peoples life's. Whether this is due to the influence of the military population or because of some other reason I am not sure. During parent teacher conferences we see kids with their parents. The amount of fat parents that have non fat kids is a vast majority. This may not be the case in other areas but kids not being attentive to their health is not a problem what so ever. Personally I started seriously working out because I saw the fit media people and I think a way I am able to call myself a "cool kid" is because I am one of the strongest and most comprehensibly fittest people in the school. I think the majority of my school is not fat and encourages everyone to work out and be fit. Our school gym is constantly full and the gyms in our community are constantly populated with young people. So at least in my community your points are inverse to my community.

My third point does not really contribute to the argument.

Fourth point:
As stated above I do not think that society encourages fatness, I think it discourages it. My example was in reference to a friend of mine. He went to a very intensive college and major. He and his parents were poor and so as if his studies didn't take up enough time he had to work two jobs, one with the army as a software engineer and another at a restaurant. He had no time to work out, he barely had time to sleep and he was poor so he ate fatty cheap food. Naturally he got fat. He now works at a major defense contractor. He goes to work early and comes back late. He works on very important and difficult projects that absorbs all of his time. The time that isn't spent at work or reading books to help him with work is spent with his family. He runs occasionally but his life has practically forced him into being fat. This is only one of the examples that I can come up with.

My point:
Being fat is a much better problem to have than many others. Society is encouraging itself to become more and more fit but it is important that we respect the decisions and rights of others and accept their actions. We are far from glamorizing fatness and I do not see any future of which fatness is glamorized. Media stars are getting more and more fit not getting fatter.
Debate Round No. 2
Tommy.leadbetter

Pro

Oh yes, I see. Thank you.

First point. Friends jumping of cliff.

No my point is, just because everybody else is doing it, does not make it normal. There are also logical arguments as to why being fat is not 'normal': If you count our natural state, the one we have evolved into, the one that 99.99+ of humans and their evolutionary ancestors have lived by since the beginnings of life-then being fat is not 'normal'. So your argument that 'normal' is set by the majority actually supports my argument and your point that this would even make it okay, because it was 'normal,' is flawed because of the obvious examples of Nazi Germany, Slavery and many more. The analogy "friends jump of a cliff" was just a light hearted comment as it was completely relevant, however simplistic.

You say "They are fat, however they are still much more in shape than a majority of the population."

Yes but your missing the point. What are these, three men that are fat but healthy? rugby players are not fat! you cannot run fast if you are fat! there is not such thing as a healthy fat person. Muscular people may look 'fat' but I assure you, no professional sportsman that relies on speed (apart from maybe sumo wrestlers, boxers maybe one or two more) is fat. These ones that are on occasion such as boxers are not the most healthy people, weightlifters may be strong but the more 'fat' ones are not healthy in terms of a long life. Life expectancy of boxers for example is 4 years below average, you would expect a professional sportsman to be above average (1).

You say: "Therefore we are technically designed to be fat." Well yes, but in the same way we are designed to get cancer, it doesn't mean you should fight it.

You say: "However we see that this is a reasonably good problem to have compared to ones that we could be facing. Not only is it a strong part of American ideology to being accepting but if we really crack down on fitness such as like in the Soviet Union and soon possibly Russia much worse problems will spawn from it."

Are you saying that you think, that if we try to improve our citizens health its the first step towards becoming a Stalinist, authoritarian state? I don't think this is likely.

You say: "I live in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Colorado is the healthiest state and the springs one of the healthiest cities in Colorado" Yes you have it good, I am pleased to know there are places out there like this. For America doesn't work like the UK and you have far more diversity, but America is the most unhealthy country in the world and the rest of you are living fat! You also say: "Personally I started seriously working out because I saw the fit media people " This is my point exactly! If fat people where over-glamorised and then this effect will be lessened. People need healthy role-models. (just for the record I despise most of the media so it does sicken me speaking about them is such a way, but my point is that a movement towards glamorising fatness in the media, is not a step forward. It is not a step backwards either, more a step diagonally forward.) (being light hearted, please don't scrutinize me on the simplicity of that remark).

You say: "As stated above I do not think that society encourages fatness, I think it discourages it" Yes but this is the argument. I believe this too be true at the moment, but I see a movement towards making fat beautiful in the left wingers, I am arguing that such a movement is not a great way forward. I want to argue with someone who believes that we should carry out this movement.

You give the example of your friend, I think people can make time. I don't know how eating unhealthily is always quicker either. I think its a lame excuse to say you don't have the time. Apart from the fact that you will have plenty more time if do it (life) its worth it for just your everyday moods and sense of well-being and happiness. People do not work 16 hours a day 7 days a week anymore we don't live in 1920's anymore. Also, the VAST majority of fat people have plenty of time to make healthy meals. Its not their fault they don't know how, on an individual level they could be blamed, but generally they cannot, the society they live in encourages is massively. And I don't mean this simplistically, on the surface we are against fat, but our culture and our way of life make it so much easier to get addicted. Like you don't have to tell your child to get addicted to cocaine, but if you leave it around and expose it to them enough, don't be surprised if they start taking it.

Your summary: "Being fat is a much better problem to have than many others" Well so is every other problem, apart from the top 10. Also its not that much better, for it kills more people than anything in our societies so its our societies biggest killer. Can't be much things that are 'much better' than that.

You say: "Society is encouraging itself to become more and more fit but it is important that we respect the decisions and rights of others and accept their actions" I agree with this, but I want to argue with someone who believes that the right way forward is to glamorize fat. I am by no means saying that we should actively discriminate fatness anymore than it is naturally stigmatized, indeed there is far too much glamour in the media.

You say: "We are far from glamorizing fatness and I do not see any future of which fatness is glamorized. Media stars are getting more and more fit not getting fatter." This argument wasn't about the legitimacy of the existence of a movement to glamourize fat, it was an attack on such a movement.

So my argument is that we should not attempt to actively try and make fatness attractive. I am not saying we should treat actors and comedians, musicians etc. who are fat, any different.

(1)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
shockwave188

Con

I think we can debate on our opinions till we both die of old age. I think both sides have been using opinions and I think some of your points are more of conjectures than anything else. For the final round I challenge you to back up and support your statements with evidence as shall I.

Normality:
Source 1 clearly states that what is normal is set by the majority of the group. Therefore if the majority of the people in the U.S are fat then being fat is normal.

In shape:
I think source 2 takes care of this. I am not sure how much time you spend with athletes but I think that it would surprise you how many of them can be considered fat, at least at the high school and college level.

Designed to be fat:
I think you should reexamine your argument or maybe your phrasing

Mandatory fitness:
improving our citizens health is one thing forcing them to be healthy is another.

America is the most unhealthy country in the world:
Sources 3,4 and 5 disprove your argument

Time, unknowing makes fat people:
Source 6 and 7 are places for quick healthy food. Thus I think that people do know how to be healthy and you have constantly declared that people have enough time to make it therefore being fat must be their choice. You have stated many times that you think people should be able to make their own choices. Therefore if the baby wants the cocaine then he should be able to get it, or in a more relevant example if a man wants to go eat McDonald then go to sleep he should be allowed to.

My summary:
If someone wants to go get fat it is their choice and we should not inhibit their choices. One can be fat and still healthy and athletic. Fat people are still shunned and not accepted and society is not glamorizing being fat.

Sources:
[1] http://dictionary.reference.com...
[2]http://bleacherreport.com...
[3]http://beforeitsnews.com...
[4]http://www.globalpost.com...
[5]http://www.news.com.au...
[6]http://www.cookinglight.com...
[7]http://www.foodnetwork.com...
Debate Round No. 3
Tommy.leadbetter

Pro

I have had a lot going on this week and I am sorry I have to rush.

Before I sum up I would like to just question one or two things that you have said.

Normality: Even though in the bigger picture it is not normal to be fat, If for whatever reason you can describe fat as normal it still makes it no less deadly.

In shape: I was intrigued by your point about fat athletes, so I researched it. It turns out that the definition of 'fat' they use, is a roughly someone with a 40inch waist. People with 40ich waists don't look what I would call 'fat'. Also the research said that it was exercise that makes them healthy, if they didn't exercise then they would be more unhealthy presumably.

America most unhealthy: My mistake, America is not the most unhealthy. Although the countries I miscounted are ones infested with aids, HIV, drought and famine. I mean in the modernized world, America is one of the most unhealthy.

Your summary: "If someone wants to go get fat it is their choice and we should not inhibit their choices. One can be fat and still healthy and athletic. Fat people are still shunned and not accepted and society is not glamorizing being fat."

Yes I totally agree, this argument was supposed to be that this should be maintained, and the glamorization not made.
I stated in my opening argument: "(we should) not encourage...people who are overweight" and also I gave a statement: ""Fat" is a word that has a negative connotation, and it shouldn't! It should be a descriptive term, like "blonde," "cute," "short," et cetera" and I said "I do not believe this too be true". You even said that you understand my argument as: "That we should not try to move towards accepting fat people as beautiful. We should not encourage fat people to 'feel comfortable' about their size, as we are trying to do" and so you seem to have understood my point in the beginning.

So my summary.

There is a movement towards trying to make fat seem beautiful (this is not the debate, I don't want to argue with someone who disagrees with this, I want to argue whether there should be such a movement).

So, my arguments for why it should not be glamorised are as follows:

Being overweight causes premature death. That should be enough. Salty diets, which cause fatness, cause 2.3 million deaths a year in the US. Someone who is very much overweight, is almost like a blackened lung from smoking, the only difference is that the lungs are hidden.

People would copy if fat became cool. Humans like to have an identity and if they are fat, and its not uncool to be so, kids will have little motivation to change. For future health prospects don't effect young people as much as the urge for fatty foods and friendship/identity.

I will also say that I am not against fat people getting on TV by merit like everybody else, I am not talking about discrimination. This was supposed to be a more subtle, serious argument about whether we should forcefully de-stigmatize fatness or just leave it as it is.

Thank you
shockwave188

Con

Deadly:
Drugs and smoking still kill more people than obesity. Not to mention automobile accidents. The world is very dangerous and you are more likely to die from a different reason then obesity.

In shape: Where did you see that definition? The problem with that definition is when people are proportionally larger. Theoretically there can be a guy with a six pack and still have a 40 inch waist. That is why fat percentages are used.

Unhealthy:
What do you mean by unhealthy? America is one of the healthiest due to our healthcare and various laws regarding sanitation and pollution.

Conclusion: Being fat is not glamorized nor will be in the for see able future. I apologize if I misunderstood your point. From the evidence you provided I do not believe being fat will be glamorized but the free choice of others will be.

Thank you for the debate
Debate Round No. 4
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Zaradi 2 years ago
Zaradi
Trust me on this one: you won't.
Posted by Tommy.leadbetter 2 years ago
Tommy.leadbetter
Zardi, what is your argument I may want to argue with it
Posted by Tommy.leadbetter 2 years ago
Tommy.leadbetter
Dry sponge, I see what you mean its just such a vague concept I am finding it difficult so sum up in a few words
Posted by Zaradi 2 years ago
Zaradi
I'm not gonna accept this. I could debate this and win without too much of an issue, but I'm not going too since the argument I would use would hardly be what you would inevitably want to debate.

If you really need someone to accept this later on the road challenge me and I'll accept. But you're not gonna like the argument I use.
Posted by DrySponge 2 years ago
DrySponge
Dude a tip start using titles that have to do with the debate like I told you if you want to avoid questions in all of your debattes like What are you trying to debate here?
Posted by Tommy.leadbetter 2 years ago
Tommy.leadbetter
That we should not try to move towards accepting fat people as beautiful. We should not encourage fat people to 'feel comfortable' about their size, as we are trying to do. The mission should be to eradicate fatness not accept and appreciate it. It is a problem and says negative things about people who suffer from it, it is not a 'style' or 'lifestyle' like being a goth or being gay, it is a weakness and a essentially a shameful thing.

Though I must say I am not pretending that I am better than fat people by any means, we ALL have weaknesses. I smoke, that says it all, I am a weak individual in that sense. Though fat people are unfortunate enough to have a weakness that can cause physical differences that are instantly visible.
I am not a mean person, nor arrogant. Indeed I worry about lung cancer all the time and still smoke, this is just as bad if not worse than an eating disorder or lazy personality.
Posted by Zaradi 2 years ago
Zaradi
What are you trying to debate here?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
Tommy.leadbettershockwave188Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
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Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:02 
Reasons for voting decision: I'm judging the arguments based off of pro's clarification. I didn't find any arguments very convincing. Sources go to con. Everything else was even.