The Instigator
SGM_iz_SekC
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Chimera
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

Feminism fights to harm men.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Chimera
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/27/2014 Category: Society
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,422 times Debate No: 58254
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (1)

 

SGM_iz_SekC

Pro

1st round is for acceptance.
2nd round is for opening arguments, no rebuttals.
3rd round is freestyle.
4th is rebuttals and new arguments (new arguments are optional)
5th round is for rebuttals and closing statements only.

Failure to follow these rules, will be an automatic forfeit of the point towards conduct.
Chimera

Con

I accept, I hope we have a good debate.
Debate Round No. 1
SGM_iz_SekC

Pro

I thank my opponent for accepting my debate, good luck and have fun!

Opening statement:
Most may argue that my arguments only apply to the radical feminists, but the radical feminists are the famous and widely-known feminists that taint feminism. Feminism in countries like Iraq (or Islamic nations), where women are actually oppressed. In countries like the USA, women have it much better thanks to laws like affirmative action or VAMA. (which is very unneeded and sexist)

1. Today's society is feminist. Feminism blames men and the false patriarchy for every societal problem. I have been the victim of feminists, only because I said, "there isn't a patriarchy and women can be blamed just as much as men." I was called "a woman hater." They said "I was most likely a man, because all men hate women." If this is not a burden of proof, I still have more.

2. Feminists victimize women, and assume all men are predators . If this is not misandry, then I honestly don't know what is! This is the most falsified claim feminism has made. There are many women who get let off free for raping a child, or a man. Just because men can't get pregnant, doesn't automatically make them rapists and unable to be raped.

3. If you're a convicted criminal, the best thing you can have going for you might be your gender. A new study by Sonja Starr, an assistant law professor at the University of Michigan, found that men are given much higher sentences than women convicted of the same crimes in federal court. The study found that men receive sentences that are 63 percent higher, on average, than their female counterparts. Starr also found that females arrested for a crime are also significantly more likely to avoid charges and convictions entirely, and twice as likely to avoid incarceration if convicted.[1] This is also misandry caused by our feminist society.

4. Have a look at the second-wave feminist view of men for an example. Valerie Solanas, the radical feminist who shot Andy Warhol in 1968, provides a famous example of misandry in her self-published SCUM Manifesto. In case you"re wondering, SCUM is an acronym for "Society for Cutting Up Men", practically a call for gendercide, the culling of men. Quite literally, Solanas expressed her desire to "institute complete automation and destroy the male sex."[2]

5. The next time you switch on the television, count how many programs have the token "stupid boyfriend" or "abusive husband" or "pedophilic father" figure. Switch over to a children"s channel / time window and watch how many cartoons or programs reflect "silly daddy" characters or "bullying big brother". Don"t forget, of course, nearly all the women in these same programs will be smart, sexy, sassy and full of beans, capable of juggling a career lifestyle with children, a husband and a social circle " let"s not forget that she"s undoubtedly a wonderful cook and always remembers everybody"s birthdays. If these images are being constantly spread out over our airwaves, what does that tell our children who are growing up watching & learning daily, hourly, that men are just so stupid, abusive and " well, useless?[2]

6.Think "Violence Against Women Act" " notice something wrong in that? Notice how violence against men or children is not mentioned? VAWA implies, through it"s title alone, that men are the primary perpetrators of violence " despite 30 years of research and in excess of 130 scientific studies proving that intimate partner violence is roughly mutual. Time and time again, the results say the same "men and women are equally violent towards one another". And yet, when feminists demand preferential treatment or additional "rights", the government promptly delivers, like a good boy."[2]

7. This claim is from a source that tied all of this info together for easy use and I will source most of the available sources I use, but I will also source the main website. This is proof that feminism ignores men's problems completely.
Men are:
76% of homicide victims " DOJ
80% of Suicide victims " CDC
"The other most common suicide victims are divorced and/or estranged fathers like Derrick Miller. In fact, a divorced father is ten times more likely to commit suicide than a divorced mother, and three times more likely to commit suicide than a married father."Men are the overwhelming majority of rape victims
Male rape has been called "The most closely guarded secret of American prisons." (Weiss and Friar 1974)
There are estimated to be over 300,000 male rapes per year in American prisons and jails.
Father"s rights group want shared parenting (equal custody) to be the default if both parents want custody and neither parent is unfit. They feel that men should not be punished for being men, and that women should not be awarded custody to their kids simply for being women. Currently women are awarded primary custody almost all the time, even if the husband was the stay-at-home Dad and the woman was the breadwinner.

Feminists fought against this. You can read NOW"s own statement here. Also note their usage of anti-male lies, i.e. "fathers are abusive, don"t give them custody." That is from 1997, but still remains valid today.

Men want protection against false rape allegations. They feel that a man"s life should not be ruined simply on the allegation of a woman who may be a vindictive liar. Currently, a woman can accuse a man of rape for no reason, and the man"s name is splashed in the paper and his life is ruined. So, they fought for laws granting men anonymity until charged with the crime of rape"not convicted, just charged.

Feminists fought against this, causing it to fail. Also see here, the London Feminist Network campaigning to defeat the proposal.

"The London Feminist Network is a campaigning organisation uniting London based feminist groups and individuals in activism."

Men want an end to the justice system favouring women simply because they are women, and giving men harsher sentences simply because they are men.

Feminists fought against this, arguing that no woman should be sent to jail, even women who had murdered multiple people.

Men want equal treatment when victims of domestic violence, and to not be arrested for the crime of "being male" under primary aggressor policies.

Feminists fought against this by trying to suppress evidence showing that half of domestic violence is done by women, by threatening the researchers with bomb threats, death threats, etc. Modern, younger feminists are doing it as well.

And sadly, they were successful in this effort of propaganda. For decades, and continuing today, violent men are (rightfully) convicted and punished by the state, while violent women are left to freely terrorize and harm their partners.

The feminist definition of domestic violence has skewed arrest and prosecution philosophies, resulting primarily in having only male batterers criminally pursued.

Men want female rapists to be arrested, charged, and convicted with rape. In Western countries, women are rarely punished when raping men, due to the biased legal system. In some countries, women cannot be punished when raping men, since rape is defined as a male-perpetrated crime.

Feminists fought against this in India, arguing that "there is a physicality [in] rape" and that it would make things "more complicated for judges."

Feminists fought against this in Israel, claiming that changing the law would result in men filing false rape claims.

Men don"t want to be thrown in jail because they lost their jobs and temporarily cannot pay child support.

Feminists fought against this, trying to lower the amount to $5000 before a man is guilty of a felony for not paying child support. If a man loses a decent-paying job, he will now be a felon, go to jail, lose his right to vote, AND be unable to find future jobs"if he cannot regain an equal-paying job within a few months.

Men want equal economic support and help from the government. When the recession hit, male-dominated fields like construction lost millions of jobs, while female-fields like education and healthcare gained jobs. So the government proposed an economic stimulus for those fields.

Feminists successfully fought against this, arguing that it was discrimination to support men, and caused the government to give money to women who didn"t deserve it. Hundreds of professional feminists complained against the "sexism" of helping men (who had lost jobs) and not women (who had gained jobs).

A representative of the Michigan National Organization for Women testified in opposition to the Revocation of Paternity Act, which stopped the old law which stated that if a woman was married and cheated on her husband, the resulting child is considered to be legally the husband"s and the biological father had no legal rights to fight for custody or parenting time with his biological child.

As you can see, the claim that feminism fight for men"s rights is a blatant lie. Don"t believe any feminists that say that. Feminists fight for women"s rights. That is a good thing. Feminists also are happy to harm men"s rights, as shown above. That is a bad thing. Feminism is about female privilege, not equality.

Some may argue that these cases of feminists harming men is not "representative" of feminism. I ask you: Are there any cases of feminists helping men? No. Yet, there are many cases of feminists harming men.

It is reasonable to conclude from these facts that feminism fights to harm men.

http://tinyurl.com...
Chimera

Con

Opening Argument:

To begin, i would like to define the term feminism:

fem·i·nism [fem-uh-niz-uhm]

noun

the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.[1]

I would like to mention that this definition alone already shows the resolution that 'Feminism fights to harm men' to be false. However, I will continue with my opening points.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* Feminism is based around equal power distribution between the sexes, not supremacy.

Feminism makes the claim that there is a hierarchy that exists that is tilted in favor of men, this is called patriarchy. Feminism means to abolish this social hierarchy in favor of gender equality between the sexes, not the supremacy of one sex.

This alone is clarified in the definition of the term, and anyone who strays from this term (such as radical 'feminists' like TERFs) is by definition not a feminist, nor do they under any circumstance represent feminism. Saying such is equivalent to me saying, since one person in the state of Louisiana is a member of the Ku Klux Klan, then all people in Louisiana are members of the Ku Klux Klan.

Saying that all feminists seek to harm men is baseless. Purporting that feminism ignores issues like domestic violence against men, or non-recognition of female on male rape (both of which are issues that MRAs like to throw around, but do nothing about) is also baseless. Patriarchy and imbalance of power between the sexes (and imbalance of power between classes) is what causes these instances, and is exactly what feminism is opposed to.


I will rebuttal my opponents opening argument claims in the second round. I hope we can have an intelligent and meaningful debate.
Debate Round No. 2
SGM_iz_SekC

Pro

I have given ample amounts of evidence to show feminism fights to harm men.

New arguments

The next time you switch on the television, count how many programs have the token "stupid boyfriend" or "abusive husband" or "pedophilic father" figure. Switch over to a children"s channel / time window and watch how many cartoons or programs reflect "silly daddy" characters or "bullying big brother". Don"t forget, of course, nearly all the women in these same programs will be smart, sexy, sassy and full of beans, capable of juggling a career lifestyle with children, a husband and a social circle " let"s not forget that she"s undoubtedly a wonderful cook and always remembers everybody"s birthdays. If these images are being constantly spread out over our airwaves, what does that tell our children who are growing up watching & learning daily, hourly, that men are just so stupid, abusive and " well, useless?

Father's rights group want shared parenting (equal custody) to be the default if both parents want custody and neither parent is unfit. They feel that men should not be punished for being men, and that women should not be awarded custody to their kids simply for being women. Currently women are awarded primary custody almost all the time, even if the husband was the stay-at-home Dad and the woman was the breadwinner.

Feminists fought against this. You can read NOW"s own statement here. Also note their usage of anti-male lies, i.e. "fathers are abusive, don"t give them custody."


Men want an end to the justice system favoring women simply because they are women, and giving men harsher sentences simply because they are men.
Feminists fought against this, arguing that no woman should be sent to jail, even women who had murdered multiple people.
Men want equal treatment when victims of domestic violence, and to not be arrested for the crime of "being male" under primary aggressor policies.
Feminists fought against this by trying to suppress evidence showing that half of domestic violence is done by women, by threatening the researchers with bomb threats, death threats, etc. Modern, younger feminists are doing it as well.
And sadly, they were successful in this effort of propaganda. For decades, and continuing today, "violent" men are convicted and punished by the state, while violent women are left to freely terrorize and harm their partners.

Rebuttals

The literal definition of feminism is tainted by the feminism of today, that is no longer about gender equality, and I have provided ample amounts of proof. Definitions are defeated easily by this proof. Radical/Extremist feminists are the most prominent and famous feminists, so they successful changed the definition of feminism.

Famous Feminists Quotes!
"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex."

~Valerie Solanas, the SCUM Manifesto

___________________________________________________

"The simple fact is that every woman must be willing to be identified as a lesbian to be fully feminist."

~National NOW Times, Jan.1988

____________________________________________________

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience."

~Catherine Comins, Vassar College,
Assistant Dean of Student Life in Time, June 3, 1991, p. 52

____________________________________________________

"The most merciful thing a large family can do to one of its infant members is to kill it"

~Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, in Women and the New Rage, p.67

____________________________________________________

"I feel that "man-hating" is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."

~Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor

____________________________________________________

"To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he"s a machine, a walking dildo."

~Valerie Solanas

____________________________________________________

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig."

~Andrea Dworkin

____________________________________________________

"Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear"

~Susan Brownmiller

____________________________________________________

"The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men."

~Sharon Stone

____________________________________________________

"In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent."

~Catherine MacKinnon

____________________________________________________

"The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race."

~Sally Miller Gearhart

____________________________________________________

"All men are rapists and that"s all they are"

~Marilyn French

____________________________________________________

"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release."

~Germaine Greer

____________________________________________________

"Sex is the cross on which women are crucified " Sex can only be adequately defined as universal rape."

~Hodee Edwards____________________________________________________

"Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat."

~Hillary Clinton

____________________________________________________

"MAN: " an obsolete life form" an ordinary creature who needs to be watched " a contradictory baby-man ""
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"TESTOSTERONE POISONING: " "Until now it has been though that the level of testosterone in men is normal simply because they have it. But if you consider how abnormal their behavior is, then you are led to the hypothesis that almost all men are suffering from "testosterone poisoning.""

~A Feminist Dictionary

____________________________________________________

"Patriarchy requires violence or the subliminal threat of violence in order to maintain itself" The most dangerous situation for a woman is not an unknown man in the street, or even the enemy in wartime, but a husband or lover in the isolation of their home."

~Gloria Steinem in Revolution from Within: A Book of Self-Esteem, pp. 259-261.

____________________________________________________

"Women take their roles of caretakers very seriously and when they hear of someone who"s taken advantage of a child, they react more strongly than men do."

~Kathleen C. Faller

____________________________________________________

"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which a man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He"s just incapable of it."

~Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan
____________________________________________________

"I wonder if he [Martin Luther King] really accomplished things, or if he just stirred people up and caused a lot of riots."

~Melbourne City Councilwoman Pat Poole on her opposition to renaming a street for Martin Luther King

____________________________________________________

"Under patriarchy, no woman is safe to live her life, or to love, or to mother children. Under patriarchy, every woman is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman"s daughter is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman"s son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman,"

~Andrea Dworkin, Liberty, p.58
______________________________________________________________

"Compare victims" reports of rape with women"s reports of sex. They look a lot alike".[T]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and rape (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it."

~Catherine MacKinnon, quoted in Christina Hoff Sommers, "Hard-Line Feminists Guilty of Ms.-Representation," Wall Street Journal, November 7, 1991.

____________________________________________________

"The fact is that the process of killing - both rape and battery are steps in that process- is the prime sexual act for men in reality and/or in imagination.".

~Andrea Dworkin, Letters from a War Zone, p. 22..

____________________________________________________

"Man"s discovery that his genitalia could serve as a weapon to generate fear must rank as one of the most important discoveries of prehistoric times, along with the use of fire, and the first crude stone axe."

~Susan Brownmiller, Against Our Will: Men, Women, and Rape, p. 5..

____________________________________________________

The newest variations on this distressingly ancient theme center on hormones and DNA: men are biologically aggressive; their fetal brains were awash in androgen; their DNA, in order to perpetuate itself, hurls them into murder and rape."

~Andrea Dworkin, Letters from a War Zone, p. 114..

____________________________________________________

Thank you (opponent) for debating this topic with me.
Chimera

Con

Rebuttal to Opening Argument:

To begin, I would just like to note that Pro's opening statement is practically a concession. By stating that the resolution is 'Feminism fights to harm men', then saying that you are only arguing against radicalism within the ideology, instead of the ideology itself, it a concession.

Also, by only limiting their arguments to the western world, it is again a concession. The resolution is 'Feminism fights to harm men', not 'Radical misandry fights to harm men in the West'.

However, I will still continue with my arguments.

I. My opponent says that today's society is feminist, when it clearly isn't.

The definition of feminism, as provided in my opening argument, is the abolition of patriarchy in favor of gender equality. Even if we were living within a female privileged society, it wouldn't be feminist. Since there is simply a new hierarchy that would've been established (matriarchy) instead of gender equality.

II. My opponent bases his first point on an unsourceable event.

Saying that you have been the 'victim' of feminists, then speaking about such event isn't a legitimate source. It is completely biased by your view of the event. Even then, these people you speak of aren't exactly the most prominent theorists within feminism.

III. My opponent stereotypes that all feminists 'assume that men are predators'.

This is a complete association fallacy, just because some feminists have a certain radical quality (misandry) doesn't mean that all feminists have a radical quality (misandry).

IV. My opponent did not provide a source to back up point 3.

V. There is evidence that shows that the number of women incarcerated has actually increased.

The number of incarcerate women has increased fivefold from 2001, partially due to lack of treatment for women who violate laws. Whereas men have more accessability to such treatment.[1][2]

VI. Solanas was both mentally insane, and highly criticized by fellow feminists.

Solanas suffered physical and sexual abuse from both her father and grandfather[3][4], and would later in life be diagnosed with schizophrenia and be sent to a psychiatric hospital.

Betty Friedan, who is noted as writing the famous book, The Feminist Mystique, said that Solanas' views were far too radical and polarizing.[5]

VII. The Violence Against Women Act does not imply such by title.

The Violence Against Women Act, by title, implies that women have been the main target of domestic violence historically. Women have only started to be seen as actual human beings with feelings rather than just house-keepers since the end of the Victorian Era. Which has been roughly 100 years.

Pro also did not provide a source for point 6.

VIII. Many of men's problems, such as homicide, are not caused by class struggle within a gender context.

The statistics my opponent has mentioned are not directly caused by patriarchy, so why should strict (meaning they only adhere to this one ideology, that being feminism) feminists deal with such an issue? Are some of the numbers involved in those statistics caused by patriarchy, yes. However, saying that they don't care about men because their ideology isn't able to deal with every problem is baseless.

However, most of those numbers were caused by different struggles within society, such as poverty.

IX. Male rapes are also the result of patriarchy.

Male-male rape usually occurs when one male either a) fails to meet the standards that the male gender has set upon them, and are seen as 'weak' and are more likely to be raped, or b) is seen as a means of achieving sexual satisfaction in a place (such as prison) devoid of females (which by many men can be seen as sex objects) and are used as a substitution.

Male rape commited by females also occurs due to patriarchy, since males have to meet a standard of 'becoming a man' and are sexually assaulted by women who seek to gain sex out of such under this guise. This itself can actually cause some men to grow up hating women.

Many feminist articles have been published in favor of ending male rape and female rape.

Even then, it doesn't matter who gets raped more. Feminism is about trying to end patriarchial culture that harms both women and men. What feminists argue for is to stop rape and rape culture in general.

X. The last few paragraphs provided by my opponent were just a copy/paste job.[6]


Rebuttal to Second Argument:

My opponent starts by reposting some of which they already posted in the first argument, please see above for my rebuttals to such.

I. A dictionary definition cannot be 'tainted'.

The radical feminists you mention are only more 'popular' since media can make more money by creating a story that is completely out of proportion and spread dishonest information than by telling the truth. Ideological definitions don't just 'change', anyone who is a misandrist or believes in feminine supremacy isn't a feminist by the definition I provided, since they obviously don't support gender equality.

Also, your 'proof' doesn't 'defeat' a dictionary definition.


Sources:

1- http://en.wikipedia.org...

2- Zaitow, Barbara H. and Jim Thomas. Women in Prison: Gender and Social Control. Lynne Rienner Publishers, 2003

3- http://en.wikipedia.org...

4- Watson, Steven (2003). Factory made: Warhol and the sixties (1st ed.). New York: Pantheon Books. pp. 35–36

5- http://en.wikipedia.org...

6- http://anti-feminism-pro-equality.tumblr.com...;
Debate Round No. 3
SGM_iz_SekC

Pro

http://www.glennsacks.com...
http://web.archive.org...
http://web.archive.org...
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
http://londonfeministnetwork.org.uk...
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk...
http://pubpages.unh.edu...
http://i.imgur.com...
http://www.law.fsu.edu...
http://www.firstpost.com...
http://www.jpost.com...
http://rinow.org...
http://www.weeklystandard.com...
http://www.legislature.mi.gov...

Father"s rights group want shared parenting (equal custody) to be the default if both parents want custody and neither parent is unfit. They feel that men should not be punished for being men, and that women should not be awarded custody to their kids simply for being women. Currently women are awarded primary custody almost all the time, even if the husband was the stay-at-home Dad and the woman was the breadwinner.

Feminists fought against this. You can read NOW"s own statement here. Also note their usage of anti-male lies, i.e. "fathers are abusive, don"t give them custody." That is from 1997, but still remains valid today.

Men want protection against false rape allegations. They feel that a man"s life should not be ruined simply on the allegation of a woman who may be a vindictive liar. Currently, a woman can accuse a man of rape for no reason, and the man"s name is splashed in the paper and his life is ruined. So, they fought for laws granting men anonymity until charged with the crime of rape"not convicted, just charged.

Feminists fought against this, causing it to fail. Also see here, the London Feminist Network campaigning to defeat the proposal.

"The London Feminist Network is a campaigning organisation uniting London based feminist groups and individuals in activism."

Men want an end to the justice system favouring women simply because they are women, and giving men harsher sentences simply because they are men.

Feminists fought against this, arguing that no woman should be sent to jail, even women who had murdered multiple people.

Men want equal treatment when victims of domestic violence, and to not be arrested for the crime of "being male" under primary aggressor policies.

Feminists fought against this by trying to suppress evidence showing that half of domestic violence is done by women, by threatening the researchers with bomb threats, death threats, etc. Modern, younger feminists are doing it as well.

And sadly, they were successful in this effort of propaganda. For decades, and continuing today, violent men are (rightfully) convicted and punished by the state, while violent women are left to freely terrorize and harm their partners.

The feminist definition of domestic violence has skewed arrest and prosecution philosophies, resulting primarily in having only male batterers criminally pursued.

Men want female rapists to be arrested, charged, and convicted with rape. In Western countries, women are rarely punished when raping men, due to the biased legal system. In some countries, women cannot be punished when raping men, since rape is defined as a male-perpetrated crime.

Feminists fought against this in India, arguing that "there is a physicality [in] rape" and that it would make things "more complicated for judges."

Feminists fought against this in Israel, claiming that changing the law would result in men filing false rape claims.

Men don"t want to be thrown in jail because they lost their jobs and temporarily cannot pay child support.

Feminists fought against this, trying to lower the amount to $5000 before a man is guilty of a felony for not paying child support. If a man loses a decent-paying job, he will now be a felon, go to jail, lose his right to vote, AND be unable to find future jobs"if he cannot regain an equal-paying job within a few months.

Men want equal economic support and help from the government. When the recession hit, male-dominated fields like construction lost millions of jobs, while female-fields like education and healthcare gained jobs. So the government proposed an economic stimulus for those fields.

Feminists successfully fought against this, arguing that it was discrimination to support men, and caused the government to give money to women who didn"t deserve it. Hundreds of professional feminists complained against the "sexism" of helping men (who had lost jobs) and not women (who had gained jobs).

A representative of the Michigan National Organization for Women testified in opposition to the Revocation of Paternity Act, which stopped the old law which stated that if a woman was married and cheated on her husband, the resulting child is considered to be legally the husband"s and the biological father had no legal rights to fight for custody or parenting time with his biological child.

As you can see, the claim that feminism fight for men"s rights is a blatant lie. Don"t believe any feminists that say that. Feminists fight for women"s rights. That is a good thing. Feminists also are happy to harm men"s rights, as shown above. That is a bad thing. Feminism is about female privilege, not equality.

Some may argue that these cases of feminists harming men is not "representative" of feminism. I ask you: Are there any cases of feminists helping men? No. Yet, there are many cases of feminists harming men.


This provides more evidence than needed. Feminism has changed, it is a movement hidden behind a facade. I admit that there are feminists that want true equality, but most feminists hide behind that and fight to harm men instead of doing what feminists should do. (help them if the women have it better) This shows that most feminists fight to harm men.
Chimera

Con

Rebuttal to Third Argument:

Point 1:

I. My opponent has simply pasted sources without describing the qualities or as to how they redirect back into their argument.

II. My opponent has yet again simply copy/pasted directly from this source.[1]

III. My opponent has yet to answer to any of my counter arguments, or provide how the ideology of feminism is not centered around equality of the sexes.

C: Feminism has yet to be shown (in this argument) that it 'fights to harm men', meaning the burden of proof has not been fulfilled.

Also, if you acknowledge that there are feminists that 'want true equality' then you are conceding your argument.

Point 2:

I. 'Feminist' A fights to harm men, while 'Feminist' B fights for gender equality.

II. A 'feminist' is, by definition, 'a person who supports feminism'.

III. Feminism is, by definition, the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of
women equal to those of men.[2]

C: Feminist B is by definition not a feminist, whereas Feminist A by definition is a feminist.

Point 3:

I. My opponent's claim is that 'Feminism fights to harm men'.

II. Feminism is composed of individuals that fight for gender equality, not female supremacy.

C: Feminism does not fight to harm men, thus my opponent's claim is false.

Sources:

1- http://anti-feminism-pro-equality.tumblr.com...

2- http://dictionary.reference.com...;
Debate Round No. 4
SGM_iz_SekC

Pro

My opponent agreed that feminism fights to harm men in their point 2.
Gender equality by definition harms men, women, families and society.
The bottom line, says Venker, is that, "Feminism has sabotaged women's happiness." Worse, she adds, it's flipped male-female relationships upside down. Just one example: Men more than ever are seeking love, marriage and kids while women want independence.

As Schlafly's niece, Venker grew up seeing an alternative view to mainstream feminists views on TV and in the media. Now as a mother in Missouri, she's trying to help her aunt highlight what conservatives feel is wrong with feminism and to build a new understanding between men and women.

The book is controversial, especially in liberal circles, for lines like this: "Unfortunately, once feminism came along, women abandoned their pedestal in droves and decided they wanted to share the man's pedestal with him. They claimed they wanted both sexes on the same pedestal to represent equality and prove men and women are the same. Instead, they found themselves in conflict. Since there isn't enough room on a pedestal for both of them, feminists pushed men off to make room for themselves." She added, "That's not equality. That's matriarchy."

On sex: "Sex is a problem, too. More and more wives today say they're too tired for sex. ...Naturally, this poses a problem for husbands, who are rarely too tired for sex. Sex is a man's favorite past time, and the wives who are too tired to have it are often resentful of this fact. If change is going to come, it will have to come from women"they are the ones who changed the natural order of things. Moreover, men aren't the ones who kvetch about their place in the world"not because they have it so great, contrary to feminist dogma, but because it's not in their nature. Men tend to go along with whatever women say they need."

The duo have also raised concerns about Palin calling herself a conservative feminist. "You can't be both," says Venker, who adds that Palin is "confusing" conservatives by calling herself a feminist.

Mainstream media and liberal politicians and pundits also take a big hit, blamed for promoting feminism. They are especially critical of the "feminist elite" including Oprah, first lady Michelle Obama, CBS anchor Katie Couric, and Arianna Huffington. "What these women have in common is clout, and they believe they know that's best for women," they write, adding: "The problem is that the majority of women in this country don't have the power"feminists do. And feminists influence liberals as well as conservatives to confirm to the feminist message."

From the book and our recent interview, Whispers has pulled this list:

Five Ways That Feminism Has Ruined America

1. It hurt marriage. Women want to wait so that they can keep their identities longer and men are finding easy sex, taking away a big reason for marriage.

2. Undermines child rearing. More kids are in childcare where discipline is lax resulting in a "epidemic" of bad kids, childhood obesity, and bullies.

3. Two-income trap. With both husband and wife working it's hard to live without life's luxuries.

4. Undermines college sports. Title IX has ended many male-only sports at some colleges.

5. Emasculates men. It's better to be a wuss than speak up or mouth off and face charges of harassment or chauvinism.

Today, a stay-at-home mother is viewed as a kind of second-class woman. In fact, feminists do not even view stay-at-home mothers as persons. This derogatory view began with Betty Friedan. "[V]acuuming the living room floor"with or without makeup"is not work that takes enough thought or energy to challenge any woman"s full capacity. Down through the ages man has known that he was set apart from other animals by his mind"s power to have an idea, a vision, and shape the future to it. " [W]hen he discovers and creates and shapes a future different from his past, he is a man, a human being" (The Feminine Mystique). The basic idea of feminism was that women should have a choice to go to the workplace and become less animal-like. What does that make a stay-at-home mother? Since being a wife and mother was supposedly glorified in the 1950s, the women"s movement fought to demote that role to the lowest level possible. Many impressionable young women wholeheartedly believed this 1960s philosophy.

Unfortunately, this feminist teaching has planted deep roots in the consciousness of American women. The feminist tree has blossomed. Today, it is considered a great shame to be a wife and mother only. In fact, being a wife and mother is synonymous with the meaningless life of a lower, uneducated class of people. What are today"s fruits of this philosophy?

The fight for women"s rights has actually turned into a fight against the family. Even the mothers of modern feminism admit that radical feminists have worked hard to repudiate the family.

Feminist Stephanie Coontz, history professor at the Evergreen State College in Olympia, Wa., wrote in the Washington Post, "We cannot afford to construct our social policies, our advice to our own children and even our own emotional expectations around the illusion that all commitments, sexual activities and caregiving will take place in a traditional marriage" (May 1). You don"t have to read between the lines to understand that such thinking is destroying the traditional family!

It is within the Anglo-American world that feminism has been embraced the most passionately. These countries also have the highest divorce rates in the world, and are producing record numbers of fatherless children"which in turn creates many other social problems. Robert Sheaffer writes, "One can try to argue that the U.S. family died of natural causes at precisely the same time feminists began shooting at it, but after examining the depth and ferocity of the feminist attack against women"s roles as wives and mothers, such an argument fails to convince" (Feminism, the Noble Lie). Let"s own up to it: Feminism has caused some tragic results for the family.

If we are going to fix our social problems, we must recognize that feminism has led our Western families into serious crises. Here is how it happened. Although many young women answered the call to pursue a career, they could not deny their natural desire for a husband and children. Many then opted to have a husband, children and a career. Realizing that certain feminine desires could not be denied, a new movement slogan was quickly pushed into public view""having it all." This slogan lives on. But it ignores a hard reality for many working mothers: Having it all also means handling it all. Working career mothers were forced into a high-stress rat race. Having it all was supposed to be fulfilling, but it was not. Now, almost four decades later, women find they are not any closer to finding true, satisfying fulfillment. For some, "having it all" has meant losing it all.

The truth is, working mothers suffer. The children of working mothers always suffer. And should we forget"the husband suffers too.

Severe fatigue plagues many working mothers. Balancing career, marriage and child care is an impossible task. Few can actually do it all. To do it all, corners have to be cut. Unfortunately, because of feminist peer pressure, marriage and family are sacrificed before career. Many two-career marriages have crumbled. Children have been left at home alone. Can we begin to see the harm that working motherhood has done to families?

Our society of working mothers is a disaster. Experts agree that the industrial revolution produced families with absentee fathers. Now feminism has given us families with absentee mothers. What does this mean? Essentially, our children are growing up alone.

It is estimated that as many as 60 percent of American children do not have full-time parental supervision. Think about it. If children are blessed enough to be in a two-parent home, generally they still have both parents working outside the home. The children are left home alone. If the family is run by a single parent, that parent (whether male or female) is working. Again, the children are home alone. This means our youth are growing up with an ever-dwindling amount of parental love, nurturing and supervision. The average latchkey child (a child returning home after school with no parent to greet him) is alone three hours per day. Some of these children are as young as 8; most are in their teens. When we think about parents arriving home after a difficult day at the office, we can logically surmise that there is not much quality time left for the child.

All children and teens fundamentally need acceptance, praise, teaching and discipline. Children need to be taught right from wrong. Children need to learn how to be successful. This requires experience and activities. These needs are best met by parents. If these needs are not met at home, children have no other choice than to look elsewhere. This makes our children frustrated, angry and vulnerable to many dangers.

This is evidence.
Chimera

Con

Final rebuttal:

Saying that gender equality fights to harm men is equivalent to saying that racial equality fights to harm whites. Or saying that fighting for sexual equality fights to harm non-LGBT individuals. When, in reality, gender equality (and equality in general) is focused around giving equal rights to both sexes, and eliminating the struggles that are produced from patriarchy.

Such struggles include:

A) Women being misrepresented in politics.

B) Rape of both men by women (out of a sense that men are viewed as people who will always accept and appreciate sex willingly) and women by men (out of a perception that women can be viewed as sexual objects).

C) Objectification of women in the media.

D) Discrimination against those who slip out of their socio-gender normative, simply because they wish to be more individualistic (Ex: passive gay men being compared to women. Which itself is a main lead for same-sex rape within prisons, as passive gay men (or simply men who don't fit within a tough enough veil of masculinity) become to be seen as easy substitutes to women as sex objects).

E) Child abuse by mothers/fathers who force their children to mold into a gender normative (Ex: male children being abused for being to 'effeminate', and female children being abused for being to 'masculine').

F) Slut-shaming, which can lead to depression and suicide (as with the case of Amanda Todd[1]).

Etc., etc.

Thus, as a feminist is against patriarchy, a feminist is also against all of these points stated above.

As for your next few paragraphs until the end of my opponent's 'Five ways feminism has ruined America', that was copy/pasted from this source[2]. Which means my oppenent has yet to provide an argument for yourself.

The rest of his argument is, yet again, another copy/paste job from this source[3].

Conclusion:

My opponent has yet to provide a realistic argument as to how feminism fights to harm men, and also how gender equality can be percieved as being harmful to men when it obviously has not been implemented yet.

Because of such, my opponent has to fulfill their burden of proof.

Vote Con.

Sources:

1- http://en.wikipedia.org...

2- http://www.usnews.com...

3- http://www.thetrumpet.com...
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by The_Immortal_Emris 2 years ago
The_Immortal_Emris
Good debate, congratulations, Chimera.
Posted by SGM_iz_SekC 2 years ago
SGM_iz_SekC
freestyle means you can do any setup you want in that round (new info only or new info/rebuttal or rebuttal only.)
Posted by 2Sense 2 years ago
2Sense
Can you explain what "freestyle" means? I'd like to do this debate with you, otherwise.
Posted by Zarroette 2 years ago
Zarroette
Agreed.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Mray56 2 years ago
Mray56
SGM_iz_SekCChimeraTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro provided sources only when con asked, in a disorderly presentation. Pro did not counter argue cons claim that Pro was only arguing that western radicalism within the ideology 'fights to harm men', which is not the topic of this debate. This point remained a serious contention in which pro failed to address.