The Instigator
Pfalcon1318
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
pictureofdeloreangray
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Feminism, in practice, is a disguised form of misandry and sexual disrimination against men.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/30/2013 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,355 times Debate No: 41467
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
Votes (0)

 

Pfalcon1318

Pro

I will be arguing that modern feminism, when demonstrated, discussed or otherwise displayed, is, under the guise of promoting equality, a system that promotes and continues hatred of, and discrimination against, men.

Please use the first round to accept, and detail the overlaying argument you are intending to present. Also, feel free to define any terms which you deem necessary in your presentation of you position.
pictureofdeloreangray

Con

Thank you for proposing a debate that promotes compelling argumentation. It is one I gladly accept.

Firstly, it would be prescient to define the different modes of feminism. The term 'Modern Feminism' is not used as phrase to define any current streams of the feminist movements. Secondly, the charge of misandry against individuated schisms may be valid for certain currents of feminism, or at least the sum of its parts, but not for the many various strains of feminism. The inverse to your claim is difficult to defend; beings that hatred, and the manifestations of ideas, is dependent on singular people. So if I could, may I propose a further detailing of your claim that we may both agree on? Could I posit that your charge asserts that: 'The tenants of feminism can, at the very least, in abstract or in material, be used to retain or espouse hate against men to its adherents, or promote such emotions.' Is this fair?

To further elaborate the difficulties: Feminism is highly dichotomous, with several other, at least marginally officiated banners, such as 'Black Womanist Feminism', 'Liberal Feminism' and 'Radical Feminism'. Each system of belief could potentially create mutually contrasting ideologies, and thus constitute disagreements between each movement. So with this demonstrated, it could prove more problematic to outline your declamation. So to again detail your denunciation, could we state that your position is that: 'All, or the most conspicuous banners of feminism, can be, or are currently being, used to levy hatred and discrimination against men.' Is this fair? Please correct me, should I overstep boundaries.

If I could enumerate by means of an analogy why I believe the former claim is incorrect:

An orthodox Jew is living in Texas, and on this morning, he picks up a news clipping from atop a casement with the header: "Orthodox settlers clear out Palestinian village, again." 'Clear out' is obviously a euphemism for ethnic cleansing, and the Texan realizes this. The Settlers and the Texan both have mutually agreed ideologies, with alternating executions. Which predisposes the Texan to disagree with the actions of the settlers. Therefore, can it be asseverated that the zealots represent the claim of the Jews entire? When most 'Modern' Judaic authorities state, through their spectacularly spurious interpolations of a violent scripture, that the settlers actions must be abhorred through religious technicality? The claim of a few bad apples representing an ideology that presents it argument in the defence of human solidarity is hard to swallow.

Ibid. Therefore, my position is that the modern incarnation of feminism is, at the very least, not construable through its tenants as being able to inspire hatred. And those that claim feminism as their ideology, and act contrary to the seminal points of the ideology, do not promote its cause, but only their interpretation of it. And that feminism as a credo cannot illicit those thoughts intrinsically because its precedents are antithetical to those acts.

Furthermore, feminism is not the statement that woman are domineered by men, but that woman suffer by means of gender inequality enforced by societal structures; not by men, because males may be caused detriment through similar means. This point is even recognized by modern feminists.

To expound your statement further, could you give examples of your assertion? Texts, literature, dialogues, etc. hinting at misandrous vitriol? Feminism does have its criticisms, primarily in the sense that people state it lacks scope. But the will of reformation of ideas within feminism, and the attuning of those thoughts in light of their critiques, should take primacy over heavy handed reprove of them.

As a further post-script, I apologize if my argument oversteps bounds of inferential syllogism, correct me if you see fallacies. I promote any spectator to do the same in the comment areas as well. Once again, thank you for this opportunity for civil discussion.
Debate Round No. 1
Pfalcon1318

Pro

Thank you for accepting my proposal. As this is my first debate, I expect to learn much from you. I hope you deem me a worthy opponent.

I realize that feminism does have multiple banners. I would like to use a simplified definition of the term to clarify. To paraphrase: Feminism is a ideal which promotes the equal rights and equal treatment of both sexes. I hope this is an agreeable definition. I wish to use this definition to prevent any disconnection of point and counterpoint. I am asserting that the tenants of feminism can...be used to retain or espouse hate against men... By this simplified definition, I hope we are both able to present arguments to disprove one another's points and prove our own.

1. The ideations of Feminism are not being acted upon.

Feminism is the promotion of equal rights and treatment for both sexes, however, when put into discussed and practice, feminism promotes women in the job market, and doesn't promote men in the areas in which men are at a disadvantage. This maintains the gap between the sexes. Example:

A woman, let us call her Jane, is working with Company X. Jane is married to John and they have 2 kids, age 7.Jane gets promoted repeatedly until she is in a C-level position. This is considered a success by feminism, as it being practiced. John and Jane divorce. For the sake of argument, let us say that John is a "wonderful father" to his kids. Should Jane be given full custody and John denied joint custody, this is not problematic. This does not promote equality, but is deemed the correct sequence of events. This is discrimination, as the contrary is uncommon and only likely in certain circumstances, where the father is deemed by the courts as the "better" parent. As the latter issue, of child support, is not attacked as commonly as the former issue, of job equality, feminism is ensuring the continuation of discrimination of men.

2. Feminism, as it is practiced, focuses on the wrongs of men, rather than the wrongs which are part of society.

Maintaining the example of an American application of feminism as an ideal which promotes equality, allow me to first state:

I) Rape is punishable by law, and deemed to be wrong.
II) False accusation of rape is plausible.
III) Sexual harassment is interaction-based, not gender-based. (Man to man, man to woman, woman to man, woman to woman)

In America, as there are countries where this is not the case, there are cases where a woman has displayed her attraction to a man, who expresses the same. It is plausible that, if the woman no longer desires the man, but does not tell him this, any continued advances can be taken to authorities and filed as sexual harassment or sexual assault. Should the two have had consensual intercourse, and it be possible to extract DNA from this woman, the man may be tried in court and convicted of assault. Instances such as this are not impossible. Such an occurrence is possible with the man as the initial aggressor, however, should such events transpire, it is not possible to bring sexual harassment to the authorities, and in the events of the highly improbable, but not impossible, "rape" of the male, a trial of sexual assault is unlikely.

Rather than take into account the circumstances surrounding the affair, it is common to see the legal system take a "guilty until proven innocent" stance on such matters, regarding the man, yet the woman is unlikely to be seen as the perpetrator. This is takes into account that men rape women more often than women "rape" men, and assumes men are willing to rape a woman. This creates the assumption that any man will, at some point, rape a woman and must be caught before this occurs, thus creating a inborn distrust and hatred of men.

The fact that these events and situations are not frowned upon, and allowed to continue, are an indication that feminism is diverting from it's ideals and promoting the opposite of what it seeks to.
pictureofdeloreangray

Con

I will have to thoughtfully decline the proffered definition of feminism. We should revert to our previously outlined notion of the term claimed from the outset, as there were no sufficient means to do reject it. The 'equal treatment of both sexes' is better elucidated as being egalitarianism, though feminism falls into this syntax. My opinion remains, however, of reclaiming the original definition. The definition is considerably obfuscated in face of its purportedly conflicting goals. But feminism makes no assertion that it requires the adherent (to feminist ideology), simply by virtue of conscription to feminism, to represent both genders. It claims the equality of both genders, yes; but more importantly, it serves women and girls in particular, because historically they have been underrepresented. Therefore, your presumption that it makes the claim of being egalitarian, and then expressing preferential favor towards women (being hypocritical) is incorrect. Feminism is a matter of representing a marginalized group. In this case, females. With the end result of having a more egalitarian dynamic in regards to the genders.

As a comparison: The claim that, because the African American civil rights movement buttressed the rights of African Americans, that is not evidence that it either provided favouritism for African Americans, or exuded contempt for Whites. Its primary concern was representation of a suppressed group, whereas the other was generously represented by birthright.

1)

Based on my former assertion, the case that women are advocated for in the job market is not equatable to your beginning assertion that feminism is ' A system that promotes and continues hatred of, and discrimination against, men.'

As for the example presented, it seems to be providing us with a non sequitur. It is your incumbent obligation, as the prompter of this discussion, to provide with the case that your provided example is a statistical phenomenon that occurs disproportionately to men. When I, because of the fickle nature of anecdote, am able to describe an actual case such as this but, at an inverse. However, my anecdote doesn't disprove yours, so I would hope for you to grant me a similar courtesy.

But finally, it begs the question that, if your exemplar situation has occurred, whether or not it is an innate outcome of feminism. Your case must be proven in light of this; you are required to posit your burden of proof. I reject this claim thereupon.

2)

Feminism notices that there are wrongs committed by men, but only as a corollary aspect of documenting crimes against women in general. This does not conclude that there are not crimes perpetrated by women against men or other women, or that women have attained special representation. Simply, that previously these crimes were misrepresented and minimized by society and social institutions, where be it a patriarchy manifestation or otherwise.

I would like to aver that my opponent is making anecdotes that requires demonstration once more.

Feminism at times makes the claim that certain gender roles predispose a biased, egalitarian societal interpretation of rape. If male rape is under reported as a phenomenon, I would like evidence to corroborate your proposing that this is the fault of feminism, and not our stunted jurisprudence or arbitrary roles assigned to gender. Which has as indelible code that men must be vilified for being victims. This is a detriment that the feminist movement would be in opposition towards. And as an addendum, male "rape" occurs very often. Feminism would express solidarity with these victims of horrendous atrocities.

See wikipedia article on feminism, et al:

"Some feminists are engaged with men's issues activism, such as bringing attention to male rape and spousal battery and addressing negative social expectations for men."

Sources:
Harv. Women's L.J. 107 (1978) Fathers' Rights and Feminism: The Maternal Presumption Revisited; Uviller, Rena K.*
Feminism for Men: Legal Ideology and the Construction of Maleness, N Levit – UCLA L. Rev., 1995 – works.bepress.com*
Unwed Fathers' Rights, Adoption, and Sex Equality: Gender-Neutrality and the Perpetuation of Patriarchy*

I don't disagree that the judicial system has flaws. I would care for elaboration as to why these must be attributable to feminism.

"This creates the assumption that any man will, etc." I would like validation on this inference. Who do you see doing this, etc.?
Debate Round No. 2
Pfalcon1318

Pro

Pfalcon1318 forfeited this round.
pictureofdeloreangray

Con

pictureofdeloreangray forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Pfalcon1318

Pro

Pfalcon1318 forfeited this round.
pictureofdeloreangray

Con

pictureofdeloreangray forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Pfalcon1318

Pro

Pfalcon1318 forfeited this round.
pictureofdeloreangray

Con

pictureofdeloreangray forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by pictureofdeloreangray 3 years ago
pictureofdeloreangray
I really, really wanted to finish this debate.
Posted by Neuro 3 years ago
Neuro
ScotiePhantom1

Why then is it called "Feminism"?
Posted by pictureofdeloreangray 3 years ago
pictureofdeloreangray
However, if you must, I still should thank you for an engaging debate.
Posted by pictureofdeloreangray 3 years ago
pictureofdeloreangray
What? You still have two and a half days to answer.
Posted by Pfalcon1318 3 years ago
Pfalcon1318
I apologize for this, but I must forfeit. Family matters will be keeping me from the computer for some time.
Posted by ScotiePhantom 3 years ago
ScotiePhantom
I don't think you understand what feminism is. Feminism is the belief that men and women are equal. Not that women are better than men. Sadly a lot of people think that, but there are male feminist too, why would a male think someone is better than them?
Posted by Black_Cap 3 years ago
Black_Cap
@Pro: both your arguments in round 2 have more to do with gender inequality in society, rather than feminism. By your definition of feminism, feminist will also be against those outcomes in the theoretical examples you stated
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