Feminism is currently helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries
Debate Rounds (4)
The first round is for accepting the debate.
The second round is for opening statements and new arguments
The third round will be rebuttals with new arguments still allowed
The fourth round is for final rebuttals and a closing statement/speech
1. Stick to the resolution.
2. Be open minded.
3. See number one and two.
4. Good luck to whoever may accept this debate
Now I have one request for you, read everything I have to say and consider it. Speaking to you as person to person I want this debate to act like a bridge to reach common ground and have everyone leave the debate with a better understanding of how the world is. Thank you in advance.
Now let's begin.
Let me open by introducing you to a fairly recent poll. ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com...... ). A total of 20% of Americans support feminism, despite this an overwhelming majority of 82% of Americans are in favor of equality between the sexes. The only logical explanation for this is people see feminist actions and they don't believe that feminism is for equality.
Why do a vast majority of Americans believe in sex equality, but only a small majority of 20% of Americans support feminism? Well let me bring up a woman named Lauren Southern. Some time back she held up a sign saying "I don't need feminism because I believe in equality" ( https://www.youtube.com...... ) In this video she talks about how in the movement of feminism the only issues that are talked about are women's issues, on the other hand men's issues are outright ignored. She then talks about the many issues men face. This includes men actually being raped MORE than women in the U.S. if you take all rapes into account, including prison rape. ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk...... ) Next she talks about how men make up almost half of domestic abuse victims, but they do not receive any of the help that women have when they are victims. She also talks about how men make up 80% of suicide victims. ( http://www.avoiceformen.com...... ), 92% of workplace deaths ( http://amptoons.com...... ), 97% of combat deaths ( http://www.avoiceformen.com...... ) and 77% of homicide ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...... ). She also talks about how men go through many of the same problems women do that feminists complain about. This includes objectification, rape, and mistreatment, yet feminism acts like only women go through these things. That is not equality.
Many of feminism's responses to this is that is that feminism is actually trying to help solve the issues men face. This is outright not true. When is the last time you've seen a protest that talks about very serious issues men face such as losing custody in 84% of divorces regardless of whether they can do a better job raising the child, despite their wives initiating the divorce 66% of the time. ( http://www.avoiceformen.com...... ). I have never seen nor heard of feminists protesting such an issue, therefore one can conclude that feminism does NOT help solve issues men face.
Other feminists will say that these issues stem from stereotypes about men and women. I'm not going to deny this, however I will say that feminism is not helping at all. Many of these problems stem from women being seen as victims while men are seen as the abusive perpetrators, such as the domestic abuse problem I previously talked about. This stereotype also causes other issues such as men being 165% more likely to be convicted than women, men receiving 63% longer sentences than women for the exact same crime and studies finding that gender court bias against men is 6 times that of bias against race ( http://www.law.umich.edu...... ).
Most of all what feminism says is that feminism is helping women's issues, and men having issues is a separate problem. 1. That is outright NOT equality, therefore this defense concedes that feminism is not a movement towards equality. 2. I would have no problem if it weren't for this one thing, that one thing is that feminism makes the problem worse. One major thing they do that hurts the movement towards equality is treat men like the abusive perpetrators and treat women as victims. This is blatantly shown when feminism talks about issues like domestic violence, rape and objectification. These are issues both men and women face, yet feminism treats men like the abusive perpetrators and they treat women as the victims. Sounds like a harmful stereotype to me. Feminists will try to shut down any who speak out against the movement or any who try to talk about men's issues. This is shown by women's studies professors telling their students to go protest against those who talk about men's issues. Here's a news report about feminists protesting people just talking and discussing male issues: https://www.youtube.com......
Now I understand not all feminists are like this. Some feminists truly believe in equality between the sexes, and I truly hope you are one of those people, pro. If you are one of those people who believe in true equality and consider themselves feminist then I believe you do not belong in the movement. You deserve better, therefore I would like to introduce you to an alternative to being a feminist. Being an egalitarian. Egalitarian: of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.
Now let me finish explaining why feminism is not a movement for equality by telling a story.The story of Earl Silverman. A video of one of his friends telling the story better than I ever could can be found here: https://www.youtube.com...... . But I doubt all of you are going to watch the whole video so let me tell the story myself.
It all started when Earl left an abusive relationship where his wife abused him. He started looked for domestic abuse shelters to help him. Everywhere he went he found out that the shelters only help female victims. He did not find a shelter. As a result he decided to start his own shelter for male victims, for there are no shelters for them where he lived, Canada. He then followed researchers and those researchers found study after study showed that men were victims of domestic abuse too and how the government viewed domestic violence was outright wrong. (Female victim, male perpetration) He then saw that all of these studies were actively being ignored. He did his own investigation as to why this was. What he found was any study about gendered issues has to be approved by the Minister of the Status of Women has full veto power to any studies that would be published to publicly funded sites. If she denies any study for any reason the report stops at her desk. Later on he started requesting funding from the government. Everywhere he went he was denied funding because wherever he went no funding was offered towards male victims, even though there is funding for female victims. Seems a little sexist doesn't it? He then applied for a hearing in front of a Human's Rights council for sex discrimination. He was denied, over and over. He appealed over and over, and ended up facing two lawyers. After four years the final statement was made that because there were not equal male and female victims it isn't sex discrimination. Which obviously is not true. He then tried to get on public shows to talk about the issues he faces. He eventually was accepted to debate a feminist in public television. The feminist did not show up. In fact feminism created this whole mess with their distorted models and censorship. Next he eventually was so far in dept he could not run his shelter anymore. He was forced to shut down and sell the house. The day after he moved out Earl Silverman was found hanging by the neck in his garage. Earl Silverman had committed suicide. His suicide note can be found here: http://www.familyofmen.com...... In this note he says the reason he killed himself is to create a need for funding for male victims. He hoped with his death feminists would realize men can be victims too, and he hoped that maybe they would finally care. Feminism is responsible for his death.
If feminism was for equality he would have got funding, male victims would be cared for. If feminism was for equality Earl SIlverman would be alive today. Feminism is not for equality.
I rest my case.
https://answers.yahoo.com... there is more men in prison then women but that does not mean that m=women want to view men as the higher race this is a 20th century and below stereotype. Women should have equal rights and opportunities but don't, http://www.forbes.com... this website shoes the ratio of men to women in college and shows women are way more advanced in the field of education but still men are given more chances.
Women in society today are seen as equal.
Many men believe that women need men to survive and to support them but that is not true at all in today's age women have the financial and physical abilities to survive but have not been given enough opportunity's, if we look at some of the highest payed people in history http://www.forbes.com... we see the top 6 are all men because they have been given more chances in life.
Women have the ability to be in the top 6 but have not been given that path to take.
"Yes you made some good points" - Well thank you :)
"https://answers.yahoo.com...... there is more men in prison then women but that does not mean that m=women want to view men as the higher race" - Well the evidence you brought up just says that men make up the vast majority of prison captives.
6.8% women and 93.2% men. Seems a little off doesn't it?
Anyways the point you brought up was "but that does not mean that m=women want to view men as the higher race"
That's a little confusing, but what I think you are trying to say is that this doesn't mean women see themselves as superiors to men.
Well first of all I would like to point out a common but fundamental misunderstanding you have. I said before the feminist movement as a whole views men as inferiors. FeminismX00;women. I am not accusing women of anything, I have no problem with women, in fact I love them (literally), however I do have a problem with feminism.
It seems the point you are trying to make is that despite these ridiculous female favored statistics, you are rejecting that females are favored in the court of law. It baffles me how anyone can believe this when the stat that 93.2% of prison inmates are men is right in front of them. I can speak from my and others personal experience, men and women can be equally violent, fraudulent and criminal. With that being the case how can we reasonably have 93.2% of prison inmates being men. Surely people should be able to see that there HAS to be bias for that start to be true.
If you still don't believe me let me drop some statistics. 1. Men receive 63% longer sentences than women for simply being men- http://www.law.umich.edu... 2. Men are 165% more likely to be convicted than men when they do the exact same crime- http://permutationofninjas.org... . If you take these statistics into account you absolutely can't deny that men are disadvantaged in the court of law.
"Women should have equal rights and opportunities" I completely agree I am egalitarian and believe in equality for all humans.
" but don't, http://www.forbes.com...... this website shoes the ratio of men to women in college and shows women are way more advanced in the field of education but still men are given more chances."
Now this I am going to disagree with. If you click on the link what the statistic shows is that the ratio of men to women in college is quickly become a ratio with much more women than men. That's right. Women are actually getting more college level education than men.
"shows women are way more advanced in the field of education but still men are given more chances"
This, well. This just isn't true or backed up by anything. Nothing in the article says or supports this. You say men are given more opportunities without really backing it up with anything. In fact I would argue that the exact opposite is the case.
For example take this into account. If you read this article females are preferred in the education system: http://www.hookingupsmart.com... . If you look read this article it talks about the barriers men face in university that women are immune to: http://www.the-american-interest.com... .
"in today's age women have the financial and physical abilities to survive" they have every single ability to support themselves."but have not been given enough opportunity's" No. They have been given every single opportunity society has to offer, they just don't take them. In fact I am going to argue they have many more opportunities than men, they just don't take them. If you watch this video - http://www.avoiceformen.com... you will see that women are actually PREFERRED in stem jobs over men for no reason other than being men. As I stated before they have every single opportunity to take high paying jobs to support themselves.
"Women in society today are seen as equal." Except by many feminists who see women as superior.
"Women have the ability to be in the top 6 but have not been given that path to take." The first part is right. They completely have the ability to make it to the top of society. The second part is wrong. They are given the path to take, and they are given every opportunity to take that path. They just don't.
Overall you have dropped my many points of how feminism has harmed society and how the movement has been detrimental to gender equality. A lot of what you have failed to do is prove that feminism itself is helping. All you have done is state that women are disadvantaged in some places, yet oddly you selected examples of places where they are given the upper hand.
Feminists defend their movement when someone brings up the issues men face is by saying either 1. That feminism helps men's issues by destroying stereotypes. 2. That men's issues are completely separate from female issues. One analogy I heard was "that's like saying someone who cured breast cancer hates the effort to cure lung cancer".
Well the reason why both of these defenses are simply wrong is because feminism doesn't just help solve men's issues or do nothing about them. Instead it makes the problem worse and the movement as a whole tries to stop anything from being done about male issues. For example, consider this article/video: http://www.avoiceformen.com...... In this video there is a woman who talks about her efforts to bring awareness to men's issues is shut down and censored by Feminists. Clearly Feminism, as a whole, is not helping us solve men's issues. As I stated before it is making the problem worse.
Now a lot of people (probably feminists) will refute this and say "Well not all feminists are like that"or "They aren't true feminists". The thing is I am asking the question of whether the movement as a whole is helping society, not if all feminists are bad. Also the thing about saying they are not true feminists is that people like them represent the face of feminism. They are usually the ones who control the policy in place, they control the movements and they control what the movement actually changes. A perfect example of how feminist policy has hurt society and driven us further from equality can be found here: http://www.avoiceformen.com...... . This article by Karen Straughan talks about how once domestic violence (Let's us DV for short) started getting public attention there were two main approaches to solve the problem. One of them saw it as gender neutral.
This was lead by a woman named Erin Pizzey. She founded the first battered women's shelter. What she found while running her shelter was 60% of the women were as violent or even more violent than the men they were fleeing.
And then there's the second approach, the feminist one. This model says that men are always the violent ones and are beating their partners to oppress them and to make their partners fear them. This model is based on what is called "patriarchy theory". This model became entrenched and seen as the most common and correct model by law enforcement, social workers and judges. This model is adopted by many of the 1st world, western countries including the US, Canada and the UK. In other words this model is the status quo. Despite being seen as the model that fits almost every case of domestic violence, in reality, it makes up the smallest minority of cases.
The feminist model overtook the more benevolent model ran by Erin Pizzey, despite Pizzey's model being far more accurate and helpful. The feminist model has resulted in male victims of DV being seen as a joke and offered little to no help. Feminism did not help the issue. Feminism made the problem worse. Feminism is not helping 1st world countries reach gender equality, hence the resolution.
As Karen Straughan put it, "If society was feminists, and blacks were men, they would scream ever louder that blacks are the primary offenders and that other races almost never commit such crimes, that the crime itself stems from "toxic, hegemonic blackness", they would ignore the evidence, suppress the evidence, intimidate or shun researchers who produce the evidence, engage in threats of violence against researchers who publish the evidence, and continue their attempts to entrench their view of blackness being integral to said crime into legislation and policy."
To put what she said in other words: The way feminists view men and women in DV is dangerously similar to how racist whites view blacks in crime in a way that justifies systematic oppression.
The women Erin Pizzey I recently talked about was terrorized by Feminists for questioning their model and saying it was wrong. She was protested and threatened by Feminists. She had to have a police escort where ever she went because of Feminists. She was instructed to have her mail re-directed to the bomb unit to ensure her house would not be blown to smithereens. The result of this terror peaked when her family dog was shot. As a result she fled the country.
All of that just for saying women can be just as violent as men and that Feminists are wrong. Just for saying men can be victims too she was terrorized to the point of her fleeing the country.
Countless Feminists view men as monsters and women as the princesses that need to be rescued from their violent captors. They reject the evidence and suppress those who speak out against them.
As a result of Feminist policy men have been denied the rights as people, just because they are men.
So allow me to conclude, Feminism is not helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries because feminism itself does not treat the genders equally. Feminism treats women as the superior while Feminism treats men as sub-human monsters. Does that sound like equality to you?
I like your argument but it looks like you are trying to prove me wrong buy differing into a different argument saying that "Now this I am going to disagree with. If you click on the link what the statistic shows is that the ratio of men to women in college is quickly become a ratio with much more women than men. That's right. Women are actually getting more college level education than men." You go onto say they don't take the opportunities they are given but they aren't given any more opportunities then men this has no backing and there is no backing they have been given equal opportunities either. The part that you failed is agreeing with me the argument is "Feminism is currently helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries" and here you say you agree with equality for all humans "Women should have equal rights and opportunities" I completely agree I am egalitarian and believe in equality for all humans. so there you agree with my pro argument
"You go onto say they don't take the opportunities they are given but they aren't given any more opportunities then men this has no backing and there is no backing they have been given equal opportunities either" Well this seems very hypocritical, because you're assumption that women get less opportunities than men is just speculation, and you haven't given much evidence to support your claims.
However you are kind of right that I didn't provide enough evidence to support my claims, so allow me to fix that. So first off let me prove that women do not take some of the opportunities they have, particularly in STEM fields: http://www.sify.com...
Also if you look here you will see that women, on average, chose lower paying majors in college than men: http://www.payscale.com...
Recently women also outnumbered men in the work force: http://www.nytimes.com...
If women make up over 50% of the workforce how can you logically say that men have more opportunities than women?
Please look at the stats I previously cited about females having the upper hand in all grade levels of school. This proves society and the system favor women and give them more opportunities.
I feel like that's plenty of evidence to back up the remaining of my claims, so now let's move on.
" The part that you failed is agreeing with me the argument is "Feminism is currently helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries" and here you say you agree with equality for all humans "Women should have equal rights and opportunities" I completely agree I am egalitarian and believe in equality for all humans. so there you agree with my pro argument"
The first thing that came to my mind when I read this is that I honestly am disappointed in you. I believe you know very well that I never did agree with your pro argument, and I did not think you would go so low as to twist are paraphrase my words to try to benefit you.
Anyways let's wrap this up.
Resolution: Feminism is currently helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries
What I said was I am egalitarian and I believe in equality for all humans. If you agree with me I think that's a great thing.
However believing in equality is very very different from believing in feminism, therefore me believing in equality and us agreeing on that should have nothing to do with this debate.
Now with all of your arguments all you have tried to do is say that women are given less opportunities than men. You still have not proven is that feminism is helping our society reach gender equality.
In regards to the resolution I think it's fair to say you did NOT prove that the resolution is true, therefore you should not win the round.
On the other hand let's take a look at what I have done with my arguments. I have proven that men face countless gendered issues that women don't and feminism does nothing about it, hence they do not work towards gender equality.
I have brought up evidence to debunk common feminist defenses. I have proven that feminism has made gendered problems worse for men, thus pushing our society further away from gender equality. I have also proven feminism has stopped/hindered action from being taken to solve men's issues as proven by my Earl Silverman story and a few other examples. I have (in my opinion) done a very good job in rebutting your claims with a mountain of evidence.
In regards to the resolution I think it's very fair to say I have proved that the resolution is false, therefore con should win.
I would like to remind you now that according to the rules you are NOT allowed to bring up any new arguments, hence it is the 5th and last round, so I have no time to respond. Therefore in order to obey the rules you have to stick to your argument that women are disadvantaged in regards to the economy and no more.
Now I'd like to expand on my argument of how feminism is NOT helping us reach an equal society because they try to stop anything from being done about men's issues.
If you read this this journal it talks about how feminism is responsible for male victims of domestic abuse being ignored by law: http://archive.law.fsu.edu.... If you read this it talks about how feminism has skewed how society views domestic violence in a way that completely ignores the male voice. Even after it being empirically proven that males and females are perpetrators of DV almost the same amount they still reject this are try to keep the myth alive that only male violence exists. The feminist movement has denied concrete evidence that proves men can be victims just as much as women and continues to demonize men based on a myth. Does that sound like equality?
If you watch this video you can see feminists trying to stop a forum talking about issues men face: https://www.youtube.com... . Feminism has not only created many problems for men, but will actively try to stop anything from being done to solve the problems. Does feminism still sound like it's for equality?
So hence the resolution, Feminism is currently helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries. Well here's the answer, no. Feminism is not helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries, because it 1. Does not try to solve all issues that are preventing us from reaching equality. 2. Has created many issues that are pushing us further away from a equal society. 3. Attempts to stop anything from being done about the very issues feminism has caused.
Even one of those issues is enough to mean that the movement is not for equality, but you have 3. Not only is it not helping us reach equality, but it's not even close. If we want a society with gender equality we need to reject feminism and embrace egalitarianism and movements that truly bring our society closer to equality.
Good debate, and I sincerely hope you and any others who viewed this left the debate with a better understanding of the issue.
You have said that I have sunk low but I believe you are saying this because you know you admitted to supporting my argument and you have given evidence that does not fully support your points.
Unfortunately I think you have forgotten what side you are on again when you come out and say
"Anyways let's wrap this up.
Resolution: Feminism is currently helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries
What I said was I am egalitarian and I believe in equality for all humans. If you agree with me I think that's a great thing."
The argument is about Feminism is currently helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries and you are on the con side but still you say you agree that it is currently helping us, that is not twisting your words but are your exact words.
Thank you and good debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 1 year ago
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Reasons for voting decision: I basically just couldn't make sense of what Pro's arguments were actually trying to prove. He doesn't seem to be arguing for feminism, just for equality. Con showed that feminism fails to produce equality, merely changing the balance in a different way. Pro never argues that feminism is bringing us closer to balance, just that balance is necessary and feminism may be a means to do so. Ergo, Pro did not meet his burden of proof, and so I vote Con.
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