The Instigator
Greg4586
Con (against)
Winning
1 Points
The Contender
TheSatiricalAnarchist
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Feminism is currently helping us reach gender equality in 1st world countries

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Greg4586
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/9/2015 Category: Society
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 425 times Debate No: 78533
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (1)
Votes (1)

 

Greg4586

Con

A few weeks ago you told me you would like to debate this with me again so I figured I should challenge you to this debate again. Good luck.

In this debate I will be arguing that Feminism is not helping us reach equality in 1st world countries and it is my opponents job to prove me wrong.

Before I go any further I have one request and that is that you read everything I have to say and honestly consider it. I want everyone who watches and participates in this debate to leave with a better understanding of the topic and how the world works.

The burden of proof is shared, so pro has to prove with evidence that Feminism is helping us reach equality in 1st world countries.

The first round is for accepting the debate.
The second round is for opening statements and new arguments. No rebuttals
The third round will be rebuttals with new arguments still allowed
The fourth round is for final rebuttals and a closing statement/speech

Rules:
1. Stick to the resolution.
2. Be open minded.
3. If you're going to debate this with me please be willing to take it seriously and respond.
4. Good luck to whoever may accept this debate
TheSatiricalAnarchist

Pro

I accept this debate.
Debate Round No. 1
Greg4586

Con

Thank you for accepting this debate. Good luck.

Now I have one request for you, read everything I have to say and consider it. Speaking to you as person to person I want this debate to act like a bridge to reach common ground and have everyone leave the debate with a better understanding of how the world is. Thank you in advance.

Now let's begin.

Let me open by introducing you to a fairly recent poll. ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com............ ). A total of 20% of Americans support feminism, despite this an overwhelming majority of 82% of Americans are in favor of equality between the sexes. The only logical explanation for this is people see feminist actions and they don't believe that feminism is for equality.

Why do a vast majority of Americans believe in sex equality, but only a small majority of 20% of Americans support feminism? Well let me bring up a woman named Lauren Southern. Some time back she held up a sign saying "I don't need feminism because I believe in equality" ( https://www.youtube.com............ ) In this video she talks about how in the movement of feminism the only issues that are talked about are women's issues, on the other hand men's issues are outright ignored. She then talks about the many issues men face. This includes men actually being raped MORE than women in the U.S. if you take all rapes into account, including prison rape. ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk............ ) Next she talks about how men make up almost half of domestic abuse victims, but they do not receive any of the help that women have when they are victims. She also talks about how men make up 80% of suicide victims. ( http://www.avoiceformen.com............ ), 92% of workplace deaths ( http://amptoons.com............ ), 97% of combat deaths ( http://www.avoiceformen.com............ ) and 77% of homicide ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov............ ). She also talks about how men go through many of the same problems women do that feminists complain about. This includes objectification, rape, and mistreatment, yet feminism acts like only women go through these things. That is not equality.

Many of feminism's responses to this is that is that feminism is actually trying to help solve the issues men face. This is outright not true. When is the last time you've seen a protest that talks about very serious issues men face such as losing custody in 84% of divorces regardless of whether they can do a better job raising the child, despite their wives initiating the divorce 66% of the time. ( http://www.avoiceformen.com............ ). I have never seen nor heard of feminists protesting such an issue, therefore one can conclude that feminism does NOT help solve issues men face.

Other feminists will say that these issues stem from stereotypes about men and women. I'm not going to deny this, however I will say that feminism is not helping at all. Many of these problems stem from women being seen as victims while men are seen as the abusive perpetrators, such as the domestic abuse problem I previously talked about. This stereotype also causes other issues such as men being 165% more likely to be convicted than women, men receiving 63% longer sentences than women for the exact same crime and studies finding that gender court bias against men is 6 times that of bias against race ( http://www.law.umich.edu............ ).

Most of all what feminism says is that feminism is helping women's issues, and men having issues is a separate problem. 1. That is outright NOT equality, therefore this defense concedes that feminism is not a movement towards equality. 2. I would have no problem if it weren't for this one thing, that one thing is that feminism makes the problem worse. One major thing they do that hurts the movement towards equality is treat men like the abusive perpetrators and treat women as victims. This is blatantly shown when feminism talks about issues like domestic violence, rape and objectification. These are issues both men and women face, yet feminism treats men like the abusive perpetrators and they treat women as the victims. Sounds like a harmful stereotype to me. Feminists will try to shut down any who speak out against the movement or any who try to talk about men's issues. This is shown by women's studies professors telling their students to go protest against those who talk about men's issues. Here's a news report about feminists protesting people just talking and discussing male issues: https://www.youtube.com............

Now I understand not all feminists are like this. Some feminists truly believe in equality between the sexes, and I truly hope you are one of those people, pro. If you are one of those people who believe in true equality and consider themselves feminist then I believe you do not belong in the movement. You deserve better, therefore I would like to introduce you to an alternative to being a feminist. Being an egalitarian. Egalitarian: of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.

Now let me finish explaining why feminism is not a movement for equality by telling a story.The story of Earl Silverman. A video of one of his friends telling the story better than I ever could can be found here: https://www.youtube.com............ . But I doubt all of you are going to watch the whole video so let me tell the story myself.

It all started when Earl left an abusive relationship where his wife abused him. He started looked for domestic abuse shelters to help him. Everywhere he went he found out that the shelters only help female victims. He did not find a shelter. As a result he decided to start his own shelter for male victims, for there are no shelters for them where he lived, Canada. He then followed researchers and those researchers found study after study showed that men were victims of domestic abuse too and how the government viewed domestic violence was outright wrong. (Female victim, male perpetration) He then saw that all of these studies were actively being ignored. He did his own investigation as to why this was. What he found was any study about gendered issues has to be approved by the Minister of the Status of Women has full veto power to any studies that would be published to publicly funded sites. If she denies any study for any reason the report stops at her desk. Later on he started requesting funding from the government. Everywhere he went he was denied funding because wherever he went no funding was offered towards male victims, even though there is funding for female victims. Seems a little sexist doesn't it? He then applied for a hearing in front of a Human's Rights council for sex discrimination. He was denied, over and over. He appealed over and over, and ended up facing two lawyers. After four years the final statement was made that because there were not equal male and female victims it isn't sex discrimination. Which obviously is not true. He then tried to get on public shows to talk about the issues he faces. He eventually was accepted to debate a feminist in public television. The feminist did not show up. In fact feminism created this whole mess with their distorted models and censorship. Next he eventually was so far in dept he could not run his shelter anymore. He was forced to shut down and sell the house. The day after he moved out Earl Silverman was found hanging by the neck in his garage. Earl Silverman had committed suicide. His suicide note can be found here: http://www.familyofmen.com............ In this note he says the reason he killed himself is to create a need for funding for male victims. He hoped with his death feminists would realize men can be victims too, and he hoped that maybe they would finally care. Feminism is responsible for his death.

If feminism was for equality he would have got funding, male victims would be cared for. If feminism was for equality Earl SIlverman would be alive today. Feminism is not for equality.

I rest my case.
TheSatiricalAnarchist

Pro

Thank you, Con. And on another note I would like to apologize for the inconvenient delay in my argument.

(1) Feminism is in fact helping to progressively surge societies into gender equality.

(1A) To first prove this contention, I will briefly define what feminism is:

"the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men."

The very concept of feminism is relatively broad and covers a vast amount of different media outfits and historical/public figures. Feminism as a collective whole comes in many forms and many people speak out on the issue in the modern political world. Need I remind anyone that feminism - that being the advocacy of women's rights - has allowed women to serve in the military and to vote. This equality was not given from the beginning - this was a right that was fought for for more than a hundred years but really began to kickstart in America and such other countries when the major civil rights movements were beginning - both from the black populace and LGBTQAA populace.

(1B) Feminism is also responsible for the social awareness of different double-standards that impact both men and women. Again, feminism is about equality for all genders.

The Huffington Post even wrote an article on its website covering the story of a 25-year-old comic artist from Japan with the name "Rasenth". He had published a comic that demonstrated double-standards that impacted women. However the comic also described how coming together as a collective species of humans and understanding one another is the key to solving this problem of gender inequality. This is on an economic and political level, of course.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

I would like Con, as well as the audience watching this debate take place, to look at the following article explaining 23 ways that feminism has better improved the lives of women.

http://mic.com...

And then to also take a close look at this next article explaining how feminism is truly an interest mutual to more than just woman - but to men - and how the idea of feminism becoming such a popular concept in society has definitely been a benefit to just more than women.

http://thefbomb.org...


(2) Con has made some points I would like to refute.

(2A) "A total of 20% of Americans support feminism, despite this an overwhelming majority of 82% of Americans are in favor of equality between the sexes. The only logical explanation for this is people see feminist actions and they don't believe that feminism is for equality."

I would like to address that in this very same article it is made clear that 82% of the U.S population believes in gender equality which is directly what feminism is. It just so happens, however, that feminism is more focused on the issue of women's rights and their systemic disadvantages. Whilst regarding the social standards that negatively affect men, feminists often address these problems in social media.

However, feminism is also heavily dependent on the assimilation of men into the movement to band together with women and fight for this social equity as a collective whole. While these 82% of people may not align themselves with the feminist movement, they withhold the same progressive ideals.

http://site.nomas.org... (how men are crucial to feminism)

"In this video she talks about how in the movement of feminism the only issues that are talked about are women's issues, on the other hand men's issues are outright ignored."

Con's perception of the feminist movement/ideology seems to be revolving around the concept that women are being given all of the benefits while men are thrown under the bus. Need I say again that feminism is quite literally equality for all genders? Many feminists will acknowledge men's problems but not necessarily protest them with picketing and such other methods. But does this mean the issue is not being addressed? Of course not. Simply speaking out on the issue is a good enough means of spreading it as it is. The detriment within this debate about Con's argument is the simple misconception between radical feminism (ethusing a matriarchy) and legitimate textbook-definition feminism (equality).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk...

Allow me to introduced the above article. This article talks about a well-known feminist public figure who stands up and addresses the issues that men face in societies.

"The 64-year-old academic is the star of hit YouTube series The Factual Feminist, which doesn’t just stick up for men, but also calls-out the sisterhood on false stats, cruel comments and double-standards. You know, the stuff that alienates men from the gender equality debate in the first place."

Again, growing to understand that true feminism advocates gender equality as a universal, moral right is imperative to this debate. Feminism as a movement and ideology encompasses economic, social and political equality for all.

"Feminism is responsible for his death."


Debate Round No. 2
Greg4586

Con

Now before I get started I would like to point out that I explicitly stated that no rebuttals are allowed in the second round. Pro did not follow this rule. Therefore any rebuttals she made in the second round should be disregarded of. If Pro wishes to restate those rebuttals in this round where they were meant to be, that's fine by me. However anything she said in round 2 that was a rebuttal does not count and the voters should not consider nor read.

Ok now onto my rebuttals for Pro's statements.

" To first prove this contention, I will briefly define what feminism is:

"the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." "
This literally proves nothing. This is a terrible and close minded defense of Feminism. Please do not take this the wrong way, I am insulting the argument, not you.

This is like responding to someone saying the US is very split by saying "But it's the UNITED states, how can it be split if it's called United? "

Words and movements will almost always differentiate from their original purposes and definitions. Feminism's meaning and definition should not be what some person wrote down and instead what their actions reflect. So we are to judge Feminism by it's actions and not by it's dictionary definition.

"Need I remind anyone that feminism - that being the advocacy of women's rights - has allowed women to serve in the military and to vote"
This debate is about modern feminism. What feminism did decades ago has no relevance in this debate.

"both from the black populace and LGBTQAA populace." Gendered issues are incredibly different from race and sexual orientation issues. For example with race it's incredibly different for something I believe is called the tribal effect. What this means is issues with gender are completely different from issues with race because during tribal days men and women had the most intimate relationships, father, mother, husband, wife, brother, sister etc. As a result any issues they have aren't really issues of hate, but issues of stereotypes.

For race on the other hand back in tribal days there were no blacks and whites sharing intimate relationships on a mass scale, this lead to tension for the others are different from themselves. This is what some issues are stemmed on.

Because of this it's fairly ridiculous to compare gender and race issues as if they were the same thing.

"Feminism is also responsible for the social awareness of different double-standards that impact both men and women." Feminism also caused many of the double standards they chose to ignore. Mostly aimed towards men.

"Again, feminism is about equality for all genders. " As I have went on and on about in round 2 the movement's actions do not reflect this. You are still yet to prove that feminism actually does this, for all the evidence you have really offered is an irrelevant definition.

"http://www.huffingtonpost.com...... " Some of the examples this article gives kind of fascinate me because it's like the author is living in a completely different world. On the other hand some of these issues are spot on and legitimate.

However I think it's fairly clear the author tackles the issue with a complete misunderstanding of the problem. For example, some of the things this author talks about really haven't been serious issues for decades. Many of the other issues the author really implies are gendered issues caused by sexism, but in reality the problem really isn't with society but instead the problem is with something deep inside ourselves.

Jealousy, insecurity, the list goes on. Why do you think some people will judge others for dressing too revealing or too prude? Is it sexism? No, it's personal insecurities.

A lot of these issues just stem from people wanting to be something they're not. Instead of tackling the issue themselves and trying to make themselves better they blame it on sexism. Honestly, it's kind of sad.

"I would like Con, as well as the audience watching this debate take place, to look at the following article explaining 23 ways that feminism has better improved the lives of women." So I read the list and have a few things to say.

1. Many of these hold no relevance to this debate for it is not about modern feminism so I have no response to those.

2. So let me call out this one gem in the article. "They called out rape culture." Rape culture, it's been a long time since I have heard those two words.

So let me ask you this, do you honestly think we live in a rape culture. I'm legitimately curious.

We live in a society that views rape as one of the most disgusting and horrible crimes. In a society that views rape that way, rape culture clearly does not exist and it blows my mind that people think it does. There's a lot of articles/sources you can read up about this, but here's one http://www.usnews.com...

3. Many of these really just aren't true.

4. Many of these are irrelevant to feminism or don't reflect the movement as a whole.

5. The rest of these aren't exactly helping us reach equality or weren't done by the feminist movement.

"And then to also take a close look at this next article explaining how feminism is truly an interest mutual to more than just woman - but to men"
Interesting. Was feminism mutually beneficial when they painted men as the primary perpetrators for DV which has about equal male and female perpetration?
Was feminism beneficial to men and women when they train law enforcement to be biased against men?
Did feminism improve the conditions of men when they biased family courts to strip fathers away from their children regardless of whether they were the parent that could offer the best care to their child?

No, feminism is not mutually beneficial to men and women. There's only one group of people feminists benefit. Feminists. Not women, just feminists.

Now as I stated before no rebuttals were allowed in Round 2 so anything after this point should be disregarded of.

Now to extend my arguments.

many feminists defend their movement when someone brings up the issues men face is by saying either 1. That feminism helps men's issues by destroying stereotypes. 2. That men's issues are completely separate from female issues. One analogy I heard was "that's like saying someone who cured breast cancer hates the effort to cure lung cancer".

Well the reason why both of these defenses are simply wrong is because feminism doesn't just help solve men's issues or do nothing about them. Instead it makes the problem worse and the movement as a whole tries to stop anything from being done about male issues. For example, consider this article/video: http://www.avoiceformen.com............ In this video there is a woman who talks about her efforts to bring awareness to men's issues is shut down and censored by Feminists. Clearly Feminism, as a whole, is not helping us solve men's issues. As I stated before it is making the problem worse.

Now a lot of people (probably feminists) will refute this and say "Well not all feminists are like that"or "They aren't true feminists". The thing is I am asking the question of whether the movement as a whole is helping society, not if all feminists are bad. Also the thing about saying they are not true feminists is that people like them represent the face of feminism. They are usually the ones who control the policy in place, they control the movements and they control what the movement actually changes. A perfect example of how feminist policy has hurt society and driven us further from equality can be found here: http://www.avoiceformen.com............ . This article by Karen Straughan talks about how once domestic violence (Let's us DV for short) started getting public attention there were two main approaches to solve the problem. One of them saw it as gender neutral.

This was lead by a woman named Erin Pizzey. She founded the first battered women's shelter. What she found while running her shelter was 60% of the women were as violent or even more violent than the men they were fleeing.

And then there's the second approach, the feminist one. This model says that men are always the violent ones and are beating their partners to oppress them and to make their partners fear them. This model is based on what is called "patriarchy theory". This model became entrenched and seen as the most common and correct model by law enforcement, social workers and judges. This model is adopted by many of the 1st world, western countries including the US, Canada and the UK. In other words this model is the status quo. Despite being seen as the model that fits almost every case of domestic violence, in reality, it makes up the smallest minority of cases.

The feminist model overtook the more benevolent model ran by Erin Pizzey, despite Pizzey's model being far more accurate and helpful. The feminist model has resulted in male victims of DV being seen as a joke and offered little to no help. Feminism did not help the issue. Feminism made the problem worse. Feminism is not helping 1st world countries reach gender equality, hence the resolution.

As Karen Straughan put it, "If society was feminists, and blacks were men, they would scream ever louder that blacks are the primary offenders and that other races almost never commit such crimes, that the crime itself stems from "toxic, hegemonic blackness", they would ignore the evidence, suppress the evidence, intimidate or shun researchers who produce the evidence, engage in threats of violence against researchers who publish the evidence, and continue their attempts to entrench their view of blackness being integral to said crime into legislation and policy."

To put what she said in other words: The way feminists view men and women in DV is dangerously similar to how racist whites view blacks in crime in a way that justifies systematic oppression.

To you pro
TheSatiricalAnarchist

Pro

TheSatiricalAnarchist forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Greg4586

Con

Pro ffed. Extend all arguments. Please vote Con
TheSatiricalAnarchist

Pro

TheSatiricalAnarchist forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Greg4586 1 year ago
Greg4586
Come on pro, I clearly said no rebuttals in round 2.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Midnight1131 1 year ago
Midnight1131
Greg4586TheSatiricalAnarchistTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: FF