The Instigator
Con (against)
0 Points
The Contender
Pro (for)
1 Points

Feminism is necessary in modern First World countries.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/12/2014 Category: Society
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,145 times Debate No: 66929
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (1)




Many of the arguments feminists utilize to justify the existence of a feminist movement in developed countries are outdated or myths.

For example, the wage gap does not exist. Putting aside the fact that it is illegal to pay someone less for doing the same job [1], discrepancies in wages result from the fact many women simply are not going into higher paying jobs, and often quit early to take care of family [2]. While it can be argued that this wage gap is a result of the 'patriarchy' forcing sexist social norms upon us, it does not change the fact that the modern-day First World woman has a great deal of freedom when choosing their education, career path, and even family life. Personal choices must be taken into account.

Other myths are described at [2], but listing them all would be tedious. Suffice to say that First World feminism often relies on falsehoods.

But even putting aside that fact, First World feminism often engages in other terrible acts, such as co-opting movements to promote men's health [3], treating all men as potential rapists (guilty until proved innocent, essentially) [4], among others. This may have been tolerable if feminists actively tried to regulate their movement, but criticisms of feminism are taken as either sexism or internalized misogyny, depending of the gender of the one criticizing it. Indeed, even when feminists are clearly doing terrible things, such as being shown as sexual abusers, some feminists may still defend them [5].

In all, it is clear that First World feminism runs on the spread of falsehoods about women's plight in developed countries, and it could even be argued that it is causing more harm than good.

[2 ]


I accept, Thanks for having me.

Statistics show overwhelming support for differences in wage gap

Con's line of argument is that if it is illegal to impose a wage gap, it is sufficient to conclude that the wage gap doesn't exist. The problem with this argument is that riling a case from a legal perspective doesn't measure social realities in the world. The Chartered Management Institute survey(1. shows that there is a pay difference of approximately £9,000 , equivalent to 23% in wage gape differences.

Con did not provide a study measuring wage gap whatsoever other than to prove that it is illegal which is irrelevant because of the prevailing social realities that plague society. It should also be noted that the CMI survey has over 68,000 managers across the UK which is suffice to say that it is representative. Hence, the difference in wage gap still exists and this gives feminism the reason for its existence.

Furthermore, Con added a stereotypical source listing top 5 feminist myths that is essentially a straw mans fallacy. The source listed supposedly feminist arguments such as 'one in five college women will be sexually assaulted' without providing a valid source for its original quote. Not only that, the line of rebuttals is even worse as the website never provided any studies. All they did was to list major trademarks such as the UN and Oxford Uni in hopes that someone believes it out of authority. That is just plain guilty of the appeal to authority fallacy.

The case is so weak that it cannot even be logically coherent, never mind actually making a real study.

The difference between being misandry and feminism.

There a clear differences between misandry and feminism. If we were to divide the world in terms of gender issues, there are female issues, male issues as well as non binary issues. Feminism intents to defend all 3 premises because its official aim is gender equity. Con's case is that simply because some women are misandrous, it is enough to conclude that they are representative of feminist movements. Even Con's [3]rd Source did not even imply that it is a product of feminism.

What Con essentially doing is to misinterpret the evidence to suit the theory, which is clearly a mumbo jumbo non-existing concept.

Domestic Responsibilities

Con argues that just because there are improvements to women's rights, it is suffice to say that feminists are merely exaggerating the inequality. Con is both wrong and wrong. The Global Gender Gap Report (2. shows gradual improvements in women's rights over economic cooperation, health and survival rates with education being equal in some 20 countries out of the rest.

There are improvements overall, however, inequalities still persists. On Economic Cooperation, gender equality currently stands at 60%(2) with the other 40% unequal. Feminism represents those that are still clocked under 40%. Without them, there is essentially a lack of incentive to improve equality. Inequalities persist under general figure and it also persists under hidden figures.

The Global Gender Gap also fails to credit other fields of work such as domestic responsibilities. Women are largely responsible for the huge chunk of domestic chores despite working full time similar to men (3. Researchers also found that, despite women achieving full breadwinner role(the sole economic provider), women are still primarily responsible for housework(4. There are clear masked inequalities which must not be ignored in society. These figures were hidden under the main Global Gender Gap statistic due to its simplistic measure.

Moreover, in the survey containing 1,800 people(4), 85% of women were responsible for just doing the laundry and 2/3 of them did tasks such as cleaning,cooking, looking after sick relatives. The only field in which men took significant responsibility is repairing and mending faulty item. There are clear inequalities being presented both in major government statistics and target studies. Since both type of studies complements each other for quantitative and qualitive means, it is reasonable to generalise that inequality is still prevalent.

The claim that feminists are exaggerating inequality is negated. The resolution is affirmed. Feminism is needed to represent those under oppression.
Debate Round No. 1


Statistics do not show support for differences in wage

To begin with, I recognize that my initial sources were substandard, but Pro is guilty of the same mistake. Pro cites a source surveying managers, and only managers- a study that also does not take in account personal choices, which is a major factor creating the wage gap myth. It's often that men work longer hours, and do not have paternity leaves that slow their advancement and pay raises.

In 2009, the US Department of Labour released a study on the wage gap, examining over 50 peer-reviewed papers [1]. Once personal choices were taken in account, the wage gap drops to somewhere in between 4.8% to 7.1%- or in other words, women appear to be making 92 to 95 cents to a man's dollar. Another study by the AAUW cites the wage gap to be 6.6 cents, and that includes comparing higher-paying jobs such as lawyers to lower-paying jobs such as librarians (as they all fall under the banner of 'other white collar') [2] Both sources have also said that they could not know with certainty whether this remaining wage gap is really due to sexism, or simply due to personal choices not taken in account. More educated feminists themselves have admitted that in this way, the wage gap is very close to zero [2].

It is clear that the wage gap in First World countries is insignificant.

Feminists doing terrible things

I do not claim that some feminists doing terrible things means that all feminists are terrible. That being said, there is a problem when feminists do terrible things and other feminists refuse to call them out, just because they're feminists , as can be seen in [5] of my first argument.

As well, there is a difference between the dictionary definition and what happens in reality. North Korea is officially "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea." Is it democratic? Is it a republic? Not at all. It's actions that matter. Feminists can claim that they're for gender equity for all, male, female, and non-gender-conforming folk, but it's their transmisogynist [3], man-hating [4] actions that most feminists feel free to ignore as those feminists are "not REAL feminists" that reveals its true nature.

Domestic Responsibilties
This is completely irrelevant. The question is whether feminism is necessary in modern First World countries, not still developing Third World countries where feminism is certainty still important and necessary.

The claim that feminists are needed in First World countries has been rebutted.



Differences in Wage

Con claims that if a study simply omits personal choice, it is invalid to use it as a source. Con did not rebut the validity of the CMI study nor did Con questioned the representatives of the sample, I assume it is a concession. All con did aside from failing to question 2 key methodological issues that holds the study accountable is to say that just because one factor doesn't exist, the study is invalid.

Omitting 1 factor does not make the study simplistic, it is simply used to reap the advantage of the balance between holism and reductionism in order to offset any disadvantages between both approaches

"I need employers,not mothers" ~Claire Underwood, House Of Cards (Not Meant For Arguments, Just a TV series, lol)

Moreover, Con argues that the existence of wage gap myth was due to the fact that men currently lacks the extended leave that women have, which explains the inequality between work schedules. I won't contest, but in the scope of this debate, particularly the CMI Survey, the reference Con made is useless. The average maternity leave for women in the UK is 54 weeks, which is roughly around 1 year(5.

(Note:CMI Survey was conducted in the UK which is part of the first world)

Thus, if we are to review The CMI survey, the survey shows that women on average must work 14 years longer. Since the maternity leave is 1 year long, in order to validate Con's theory, family structures in the UK ought to consists of over 14 members just as the CMI survey persists. Evidence suggests otherwise(6.

NONE of the families consists of 14 children
47% of families consists of only 1 dependent children
39% of families consists of only 2 dependent children
17% of families consists of only 3 dependent children
0% of families consists of only 14 children

Extended family have been long gone, there is no logical premise to support it, hence the same can be said for Con's theory.

Since personal choice was just thrown out of the window, the survey done by the US department of labour may now conclude that the wage gap is due to sexism since the other conclusion is flawed. Besides, even Con acknowledges that there is only 2 conclusions left, it is reasonable to accept the sexist theory over the personal choices theory. The differences in wage between genders is affirmed.


Con acknowledges that just because there is a few spoiled apple, the whole feminist branch shouldn't be discredited. Fair enough, I did not imply that you were and that the only contention I meant to give was when con referenced spoiled apples as part of the whole feminism. Moreover, Con claims that feminist rarely call each other out, that is simply not true. There are conflicts within feminism itself, Post Colonial Feminists often brawl with Liberal Feminist over Cultural Imperialism in such that intervening in secluded tribes as imperialistic, radical feminists would disagree that women have achieved improvements and seeks to abolish the social status of gender.

There are conflicts, to suggests otherwise is absurd.

Domestic Responsibilities

Lastly, Con argues that my case was referencing third world countries, I wasn't , I was directly referring to the UK. I argued that there are masked inequalities in domestic chores between spouses in the UK. This is also in addition to the global gender gap which complements the target studies I gave which is specifically the UK.

Con is trying to shift the goal post in order to refute my contention easily. This is an inadmissible tactic.

Back to you, rikomalpense
Debate Round No. 2


rikomalpense forfeited this round.


My opponent had pressing issues to attend to. Please leave this debate as a tie
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Nivek 2 years ago
Posted by debatability 2 years ago
I'd like to cast a vote on this with my thoughts, but I'll leave it as a null since it was requested to be left as a tie. I'm very interested in this topic.
Posted by rikomalpense 2 years ago
I had fun too, so that's good ;) Next time I make a debate I'll have to time it better, ha ha.
Posted by Nivek 2 years ago
Not a problem, there is no need to apologize when you have pressing matters to attend to. I had fun debating, so thanks to that as well :)
Posted by rikomalpense 2 years ago
Apologies for the forfeit, I lost track of time- had way too much stuff due before Winter Break.
Posted by Tommy.leadbetter 2 years ago
I would argue anyone not in the top 0.01% is oppressed. And by that I actually mean they have their life made harder, when it ought not to be, by our leaders. But women are oppressed in this way: the mainstream media portray women in a way that's detrimental to them, and suggests they are less than men.
Posted by intellectuallyprimitive 2 years ago
Not only can it be argued that it causes more harm, empirically it can be observed.

Contemporary feminism contributes very little positive value. Aside from that, instigating or provoking MRA, MGTOW, or other movements that disagree with feminist ideologies, can be prevalently observed.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 2 years ago
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: FF