The Instigator
ChopperTom
Pro (for)
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The Contender
FuzzyCatPotato
Con (against)
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Feminism is not needed in America anymore and is corrupting some minds.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/26/2015 Category: People
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 809 times Debate No: 75819
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
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ChopperTom

Pro

Feminism use to be a great movement. I am totally for gender equality and women have that in America. Here are some arguments I have heard.
A) The "wage gap" Some feminist think that women make around 77 cents to a mans dollar. Now as this may be true the reason this is true is due to the fact that women are more likely to work 35 to 39 hours a week when men are 4x more likely to work 40+ hours. And when women go into labor and have children when they come back there male counterparts will have more experience. Also, the fact that men are more likely to go into dangerous but more highly paying jobs. Now on that fact there are many different thoughts on whether it is based on how the brain is different between males and females or society but they have equal opportunity to work in those fields.

B) Many (I don't know the exact statistic) women will be raped. Now what I am about to say buy no means do I support or feel bad for rapist it is horrible and sick. I would like to know what feminism can do about rape? Many rapist don't see women as sex objects or less than men but they crave sex. How they get it is sick and horrible but this is not due to sexism just the fact the they crave sex and will do disgusting things to get that. Not to mention many rapist are mentally ill.

C) Women are not shown enough in high level jobs political or not. Now women have the opportunity to be in these jobs just like men. Look at Hilary. Me, I am against Hilary but if she makes it then good for her. Women can and will make it as high of a level job that men have been and are. Now for the fact that men dominate political jobs. Now this is my thought not really facts but men have had more rights than women longer than women have had equal rights. This means that women have not had the time men have had to get into office. Now this may be sad but it's true and that may be one reason. Another is that some people argue the senate and other political groups should be 50/50 males and females. The question here isn't why are we not allowing as many women into the government but it should be who is best for the job. If a man is better than the women hire him. If the women is better than the man hire her.

This is my argument on how Feminism is not needed in America as much or at all anymore.
FuzzyCatPotato

Con

Thanks for the debate, Pro.

[1] Pro: "Feminism use [sic] to be a great movement. I am totally for gender equality and women have that in America."

(A) Feminism is still for gender equality. The vast majority of feminists believe so, and criticize those who support female or male supremacy.

(B) Women do not have gender equality in America, as will become clear.

[2.1] "Some feminist think that women make around 77 cents to a mans dollar."

(A) The gap is smaller than that, but it still exists.

[2.2] "women are more likely to work 35 to 39 hours a week when men are 4x more likely to work 40+ hours"

(A) To quote the Bureau of Labor Statistics [1]:

"[E]mployed men worked about three-quarters of an hour more than employed women. [...] This difference partly reflects women's greater likelihood of working part time. However, even among full-time workers (those usually working 35 hours or more per week), men worked slightly longer than women " 8.2 versus 7.8 hours. Among part-time workers, men averaged 5.2 hours on days they worked and women averaged 5.4 hours."

Only considering full-time workers and number of hours worked, the 0.4 hour difference might justify a ~5% pay difference; however, the pay gap is far larger.

Further, this difference in working hours is explained largely by women being forced to take care of children, which is unfair and perpetuates gender roles. The AAUW reported [2]:

"[B]ecoming a mother can negatively affect women"s earnings, while becoming a father does not typically have the same effect (Correll et al., 2007). Women are more likely than men to leave the workforce or reduce their work hours after they have children, thus reducing their earnings (AAUW Educational Foundation, 2007). Research has found that even among full-time workers, mothers face an earnings penalty in the workforce compared with women without children (Correll et al., 2007)."

Yet even for childless women, the pay gap exists [2]:

"One year after college graduation, men and women have much in common. [M]ost women and men who had earned bachelor"s degrees the year before were young, single, childless, relatively inexperienced in the workplace, and working full time. We might expect to find little or no gender pay gap among this group of workers at the start of their careers. Yet just one year after college graduation ... [w]omen working full time earned $35,296 on average, while men working full time earned $42,918[.] These figures represent a female/male earnings ratio of 82 percent, which is slightly higher than it was in 2001 when, among the same group, women earned just 80 percent of what their male peers earned (AAUW Educational Foundation, 2007). .... Among those who did have children, though, both men and women earned more than their counterparts without children. Mothers tended to be older than other female graduates, which may account in part for their relatively higher levels of pay. Not surprisingly, among full-time workers just one year after college graduation, the pay gap cannot be explained by motherhood."

[2.3] when women go into labor and have children when they come back there male counterparts will have more experience

(A) See above.

[2.4] men are more likely to go into dangerous but more highly paying jobs

Dangerous jobs don't pay more than less dangerous jobs [3]. Consider that the 4 jobs with the most fatalities are farming, mining, transportation, and construction, often noted for their sky-high wages.

[2.5] Now on that fact there are many different thoughts on whether it is based on how the brain is different between males and females or society but they have equal opportunity to work in those fields.

Do women have equal opportunity? Consider that even little things, little discriminations (like the teacher tendency to underscore female achievement on STEM-related tests) can have massive consequences for female employment opportunities [4].

[3] Many (I don't know the exact statistic) women will be raped. Now what I am about to say buy no means do I support or feel bad for rapist it is horrible and sick. I would like to know what feminism can do about rape? Many rapist don't see women as sex objects or less than men but they crave sex. How they get it is sick and horrible but this is not due to sexism just the fact the they crave sex and will do disgusting things to get that. Not to mention many rapist are mentally ill.

(A) Feminism opposes "rape culture" (in which many males and females think that they have some kind of right to sex, regardless of consent) which causes at least some rapes. Feminists have also set up numerous centers to assist rape victims. Feminists also led to the redefinition of rape from a male-vaginally-raping-female action to a much broader action that has led to justice for many men and women.

In fact, the prevalence of female victims (maybe 75% of all rape victims are female) suggests that women need *more* relative power to men.

[4] Women are not shown enough in high level jobs political or not. Now women have the opportunity to be in these jobs just like men. Look at Hilary. Me, I am against Hilary but if she makes it then good for her. Women can and will make it as high of a level job that men have been and are. Now for the fact that men dominate political jobs. Now this is my thought not really facts but men have had more rights than women longer than women have had equal rights. This means that women have not had the time men have had to get into office. Now this may be sad but it's true and that may be one reason. Another is that some people argue the senate and other political groups should be 50/50 males and females. The question here isn't why are we not allowing as many women into the government but it should be who is best for the job. If a man is better than the women hire him. If the women is better than the man hire her.

(A) Women are about 20% of Congress members [5]. Women are 50% of the population. Can you seriously argue that men are 60% more skilled than women at governance?

[1] http://www.bls.gov...
[2] http://www.aauw.org...
[3] http://amptoons.com...
[4] http://nber.org...
[5] http://www.cawp.rutgers.edu...
Debate Round No. 1
ChopperTom

Pro

Response to B) They do have gender equality. They may be a victim of sexism but so are men.

Response to the whole wage gap) Many different people have used many different equations to determine the wage gap. Some find it to be 77 some find it to be 82 some find it to be 91 so that may show that the whole wage gap is misleading. Also, women fresh out of college no family actually make more than men. So the "wage gap" is actually effecting men. Also, I do not have a reliable source for this but I heard that they do not determine the "wage gap" on the actual jobs but the job fields. If this is true then the wage gap is not creditable. And when you say how the mom is the one who takes care of the kid. No one makes her take care of the child after she has given birth. God made women the ones who give birth and we can not change that but no one is making the women the ones who care for children. Adoption or ask the father.

Response to 3) Rape culture does not exist. Yes more women are raped then men but that does not change the fact the men are raped too. The fact is that both genders are raped and its horrible I don't see how the statics of male compared to female rape victims matters. Also, yes they may have set up rape centers but they base these centers on women not as much men.

Response to 4) I'm not saying men are 60% more skilled i'm saying the men that are in the government are just more skilled at the moment than the women who are challenging them. What I mean by this is that pick the more skilled person. Yes women are 50% of the population but does that mean we should hire women just because they are women. No, we should hire based on skill. If a man has more skill for a job that is male dominated then why not hire the man? If a women has a better skill level for a job that is female dominated hire the female. Don't hire based on gender or race but on skill.

I am sorry if I am not making these statements are clear but I am new at this.
FuzzyCatPotato

Con

[1] Pro: "They may be a victim of sexism but so are men."

But both are not equal victims; just because both males and females are harmed by the system does *not* mean both are equally harmed.

[2.1] Many different people have used many different equations to determine the wage gap. Some find it to be 77 some find it to be 82 some find it to be 91 so that may show that the whole wage gap is misleading.

(A) The different numbers come from (i) changes in time and (ii) regression of variables that reduce women's wages. They aren't misleading; they're fundamentally different numbers. One is the raw difference; another accounts for certain differences between men and women. The crucial bit, though, is that most of the "differences" between men and women are culture-based and thus unnecessary bias, of the kind feminism fights.

(B) Regardless of what occurs, the wage gap *exists*.

[2.2] Also, women fresh out of college no family actually make more than men. So the "wage gap" is actually effecting men.

(A) Do they? Because the AAUW study found that "[w]omen working full time earned $35,296 on average, while men working full time earned $42,918[.]".

[2.3] Also, I do not have a reliable source for this but I heard that they do not determine the "wage gap" on the actual jobs but the job fields. If this is true then the wage gap is not creditable.

(A) Sorry, what do you mean?

[2.4] And when you say how the mom is the one who takes care of the kid. No one makes her take care of the child after she has given birth.

(A) ... Except societal norms. Women are effectively forced by society into taking care of their children, through their education, through their peers, and through their reduced earning potential.

[2.5] God made women the ones who give birth and we can not change that but no one is making the women the ones who care for children.

(A) Is-ought fallacy. Just because women do/did most parenting duties, does not mean they ought to.

[2.6] Adoption or ask the father.

(A) Is adoption really reasonable, when all you're asking for is equal time spent parenting?

(B) Women *do* ask. Yet fathers disproportionately fail to do so.

[3.1] Rape culture does not exist.

(A) Oh? [6][7]

[3.2] Yes more women are raped then men but that does not change the fact the men are raped too.

(A) Again: Disfortune does not imply equal disfortune.

[3.3] The fact is that both genders are raped and its horrible I don't see how the statics of male compared to female rape victims matters.

(A) It shows that males still exercise disproportionate power over female. In a truly equal society, we'd see near-equal rates of rape for males and females, as disgusting as that sounds.

[3.4] Also, yes they may have set up rape centers but they base these centers on women not as much men.

(A) tfw feminists led to the definitional change in 2010 wherein rape was redefined to include men [8]

(B) Maybe more women need help after rape *because more women are raped*?

[4] Response to 4) I'm not saying men are 60% more skilled i'm saying the men that are in the government are just more skilled at the moment than the women who are challenging them. What I mean by this is that pick the more skilled person. Yes women are 50% of the population but does that mean we should hire women just because they are women. No, we should hire based on skill. If a man has more skill for a job that is male dominated then why not hire the man? If a women has a better skill level for a job that is female dominated hire the female. Don't hire based on gender or race but on skill.

(A) The problem is that the disparity is so large. Why are women only 20% of governence? You must offer evidence that women are (and have been) disproportionately less skilled than men at governing / running for office / etc.

[6] http://thehumanist.com...
[7] http://rationalwiki.org...
[8] http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
Debate Round No. 2
ChopperTom

Pro

ChopperTom forfeited this round.
FuzzyCatPotato

Con

Pro has forfeited 3, but still has time to argue.
Debate Round No. 3
ChopperTom

Pro

ChopperTom forfeited this round.
FuzzyCatPotato

Con

Pro has forfeited Round 4. Pro still has time to argue.
Debate Round No. 4
ChopperTom

Pro

ChopperTom forfeited this round.
FuzzyCatPotato

Con

Thanks for the debate.

Pro has forfeited 3 rounds, and has not responded to my rebuttals. I rest my case.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Nivek 1 year ago
Nivek
" Rape culture does not exist. Yes more women are raped then men but that does not change the fact the men are raped too."

lol Is this a joke?
Posted by HELLO_THOMAS 2 years ago
HELLO_THOMAS
Feminism is a range of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. *that's just the definition i found*
I totally agree that women should have equal rights but somethings I can't stand is when:
-women are total smart a**'s and think they are so much better, equal rights eh?
-and finally that women want to be equal but can't stand toilet seats up.....

So feminism is ok but seeing as there is 3,477,829,638 men and 3,418,059,380 women, it isn't ganna happen any time soon. (this data is old btw)
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