The Instigator
Rockozer
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
HermanGomez95
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Feminism is ruining video games

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/17/2015 Category: Games
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 645 times Debate No: 84064
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

Rockozer

Pro

I would like to invite anyone in the grand debate about feminism in one of entertainments biggest industries, video gaming.

I would like to say that I am referring to feminism affecting games in regards to the games themselves. I am not referring to harassment in the workplace, domestic abuse, or differences in pay grade level. I am referring to the end product that received in the video game and how feminism affects it.
HermanGomez95

Con

I accept this challenge. As a gamer, I"d like to think feminism has heightened the stakes for female roles in video games. Because Pro initiated this debate, I"ll allow him to start and lay down any rules he wants. Let"s enjoy this remarkably unique topic!
Debate Round No. 1
Rockozer

Pro

Don't know why but it is saying my original argument has profanity in it and I cant post, but it doesn't. So here is the short version of what I originally thought.

Games that are well established have their story drastically changed just to pander to feminist women who want a female dominated world where a women can't be looked as a sex object, have no flaws, and can be physically and mentally stronger than a man. Basically a perfect world for women.

Examples include Mortal Kombat X where the female new comer saves the day, despite the long running more experienced male characters being the heroes.

In Dragon Crown the female fighters were over sexualized, even though that was the choice of the artist and those characters were strong willed and not depicted as promiscuous

There was a big controversy over Metal Gear Solid 5 because one of the females had a typical athletic but sexualixed body.
So what is a developer suppose to do, make a woman fat? Well they did with Fat Princess and that got heat for depicting woman as fat, even though there are plenty of comedic fat male characters.

I am all for characters that are strong willed and it is viable. Metriod, Skull Girls, Zelda just to name a few. But it has to make sense, and not just pandering to the lowest common denominator.

What I am saying is feminist will always find something to complain about, and will never be happy, even with their own arguments.
HermanGomez95

Con

While my opponent has listed several changes in which Feminism might have influenced video games, he has yet to A.) Affectively persuade me that they’ve ruined video games (singular or plural), B.) Prove that feminism is the direct root of the change he mentioned, and C.) Provide sufficient evidence that suggests these games are worse because of their depiction of women.

I, on the other hand, will suggest an instance where Feminism might have positively influenced games. The example that first comes to mind is the Dragon Age series, which depicts feminine characters in a much more positive light than games before it. 1.) The characterization of Cassandra is both somewhat masculinized, but does not suffer because of this. The depiction of Women in Power, especially in that of Inquisition, could be seen as a direct change because of Feminism. To argue that this is a negative aspect of the game would be somewhat ludicrous, being that it bears no influence with how the story is told.

However, my second argument is not based on feminism’s influence on games; it’s actually based on its lack of influence. It is my contention that society’s changing viewpoints of sexualization and objectification caused a greater need to have female characters whom are portrayed as far more than sexual objects and damsels in distress. If one were to look at films, television series, and games throughout the past few decades, female characters have undergone a very specific evolution in attempts to battle the Male Gaze. Because of this, it is only natural that a video game will mirror the rest of society’s thoughts.

Lastly, my final rebuttal deals with a specific point made by my opponent. In regards to a sexualized character in Metal Gear Solid 5, my opponent stated, “There was a big controversy over Metal Gear Solid 5 because one of the females had a typical athletic but sexualized body. So what is a developer suppose to do, make a woman fat? Well they did with Fat Princess and that got heat for depicting woman as fat, even though there are plenty of comedic fat male characters.” My opponent erroneously thought the complaints were directed at the woman’s body, whereas they were actually directed at the woman’s clothing. Here is an image of the woman:



This is clearly sexualization, if not objectification. My opponant assumes feminists had a problem with her body, but it is my conjecture that they were more disappointed with the clothing depcition of this woman.

If the woman had been more naturally dressed, the issue would be far less severe.

That's it for now. I look forward to my opponents arguments!

Debate Round No. 2
Rockozer

Pro

Well with the increase of organizations like gamer gate...
https://en.wikipedia.org...
It is evident that groups like these are influencing the production of the games that we play. There isn't any statistics I can pull up, but we can infer this since the topic of women's depiction in video games has been a hot topic for quite some time.

As far as Dragon Age is concerned I will admit I have never played it, but you proved my point by referring to it. Dragon Age is a new intellectual property, with its own lore to create. Now if they want a strong women influence then that is fine, and it is viable. Sure in the Medevil times plenty of women were just as strong as their superiors, so it fits, its not an easy pander option. Its credible

But in my example with an established game like Mortal Kombat they just decided to change the story drastically in favour of a female antagonist being the main hero.

Now, my issue is not that a women can't be a hero, save the world, etc. But there has to be a viability within the context of the narrative, its what makes something credible. In the Motal Kombat world full of demons and ninjas, the youngest female character has to save the world. The question I ask is why? I know its up to the developers of the game but was it needed for the story, or was it just for the sake of pandering to feminist women who always want a perfect female dominated story? With already established male hero's there were plenty of options to satisfy the fans, and make the game a credible story.

As far as the Metal Gear Solid issue ok yes I said her body, not clothing. Still why the controversy over that character? That characters attitude and personality is well represented with what she is wearing, it really isn't any more obscene than Dead or Alive characters. Even in real life women dress like her all the time, rip off pants, tube tops. Female wrestlers wear that type of garment, so why is it even an issue? Its only an issue because feminist women are insecure, and that personal emotion bring the value down of the game.

Imagine if every game had to politically pander to a certain group, then stories won't be interesting, and lose the creativity and imagination that games are know for.

Mainly what I am saying is that feminist feel entitled to point out characters that they deem inappropriate, but the majority of gamers, and even society, don't agree with their values. The opinions of the least common denominator takes precedence over the majority of fans of the medium.
HermanGomez95

Con


Apologies for the very delayed response. I’ll try to be more punctual in the future.


My opponent has proven his point that feminism is, in some shape or form, influencing video games. However, he fails to articulate, fully, the exact nature of his argument, which is that feminism is ruining video games.


In order to prove this point, I’ve taken the liberty of highlighting a few of his quotes from his previous argument.



1. “But in my example with an established game like Mortal Kombat, they just decided to change the story drastically in favour of a female antagonist being the main hero. My first question is how does feminism directly affect this? How can we assure it was feminism that caused this creative change and not the simplistic idealism of the team in charge of crafting this editions story? Secondly, what evidence is there that this creative change ruined the game? While it may have negatively impacted my opponent’s own gameplay, this does not mean that the majority of others felt the same way. Now, full disclosure, I am only somewhat familiar with the Mortal Combat series, so my reaction to this creative choice was not nearly as dramatic as others. However, the main point is that feminism may not have been the root of this change, which means feminism may not have ruined the game.



2. “The question I ask is why? I know its up to the developers of the game but was it needed for the story, or was it just for the sake of pandering to feminist women who always want a perfect female dominated story?” My opponent asks this question, which is the root of my argument: there is no knowledge if the root of the change was because of creative direction or feminism pandering.



3. “Its only an issue because feminist women are insecure, and that personal emotion bring the value down of the game.” This is a fact statement, therefore it needs credulity. If my opponent wishes to state such things, then they must fully support these assertions.



4. “Imagine if every game had to politically pander to a certain group, then stories won't be interesting, and lose the creativity and imagination that games are known for.” Yet again, my opponent assumes that political pandering is at the root for every change in video games that may be attributed to feminism. However, he continues to fail at properly stating why and how he knows this.



5. “Mainly what I am saying is that feminist feel entitled to point out characters that they deem inappropriate, but the majority of gamers, and even society, don't agree with their values.” This last statement is a truly troublesome one for my opponent. He provides a fact statement rooted in incredulity. Firstly, he has no evidence that the majority of gamers, let alone society, disagree with feminist values. Secondly, he still has no proof that feminism directly caused these changes. Lastly, and by far most importantly, he is basing the whole of his argument on the changes made in ONE GAME. This is not conclusive, whatsoever.


In short, while my opponent has raised an interesting idea, he has yet to support it properly. Because of this, I ask that he provide more evidence in the next round lest he allow the inferences of his argument be the weight of his arguments.


That’s all for now.


Thanks for your patience! I’m quite enjoying this.


Debate Round No. 3
Rockozer

Pro

I understand where your coming from. You say I am making assumptions without any hard data or articles to back it up. Well I don't plan on having to rely on a sited source because I don't need to. Some things are just felt and seen by people who have a love for the medium.

Before getting to my Mortal Kombat point I would like to re-mention a few games brought up in this argument.
Fat Princess, Metal Gear Solid 5, and Dragon Crown are all games that in FACT was ridiculed by the media for their depiction of women. Now you may say it could have just been a group of women who had no relation to feminism, but come on now? We can safely assume that the only people who would go to the lengths of complaining about a woman character being too big, or not enough clothes, or too big of breast are feminist.

Now back to Mortal Kombat. No I don't have any hard data on if the majority of the fans did not like the story for the reason of the main character being a female. BUT there are a lot of forum post from various sites, videos, and blogs, of people showing their disappointment in the story. The previous game in the series was highly reviewed, especially for its story. Then the next game came out, and gameplay wise it was good. But story wise it did not live up to the previous, with a disappointing ending.

As gamers, comic fans, and nerds a like. We all know the feeling when you have your favorite series that you love. Then out of no where they make the new main character a girl, or they make a female have a clear advantage over a male character who should be stronger. Do we know the reason for a fact? Do we know if it was feminism influence on gaming, or was it a creative decision? We don't know?

Loyal fans can tell when a certain aspect of the series is pandering to a certain sub group. The point I'm making is that feminism ruins our games with developers making changes in favor of the feminist party. Developers now have to be more conscious of feminist insecurities to not get bad press.

More and more we see story lines and characters just being "phoned in" to have a female be more powerful than a male counterpart without any validity in the context of the game.

Am I saying women can't be heroes? No. Am I saying they can't be powerful? No. All I am saying for the suspension of disbelief to work the character or the story line has to show all the strengths and weakness of characters (male or female), and not just give away important roles just to please a small fraction of gamers that are displeased either way you make your story.
HermanGomez95

Con

HermanGomez95 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Rockozer

Pro

Well since this is the final round and I have no points from my opponent to counter I will say this.

I am all for equality in all aspects of life. If you work hard for it, then you deserve it.

As far as video game story lines are concerned, the same rules apply. You can be a female or a male protagonist and have whatever story you want. But the story you give the audience has to make sense of the context of the story. Don't just have a woman beat out all the men in the story line with no issues, dilemmas, or emotional struggle. Again I said context. If it is a game set in a cartoonish world where there is no real continuous story line (like Mario Games) then sure do what you like. But when you try to present a serious story line set in a fictional world parallel to our own, where we can dictate what is possible or not, then it is best to not pander just to do it.

When you pander it degrades the material and gets unnecessary attention.
HermanGomez95

Con

Dearest apologies to my opponent for my forfeiture. It being Christmas time, I was lazy in my checking this site. I quite simply forgot to post my previous argument. Voters, please factor this into your consideration for the debate. It was unprofessional and deserves to be penalized in the conduct section. Since this is the final round, I shall refrain from posting any new arguments and instead sum up why I deserve to win this debate.

Throughout his arguments, my opponent has provided arguments based more on his own personal bias against changes made in certain video games he favors than on accredited data. He even goes as far as to admit this, saying “You say I am making assumptions without any hard data or articles to back it up. Well I don't plan on having to rely on a sited source because I don't need to. Some things are just felt and seen by people who have a love for the medium.”

Because of this, my opponent has failed to prove his point. My opponent has yet to prove any changed came from feminism, therefore, he has yet to prove that feminism is ruing video games. And, to briefly restate my main argument, I’ve still yet to see what games have been ruined based on changes stemmed from feminism. The truth is that more people are finding that females are just as capable in hero roles. While this may negatively affect a few games that have strictly masculine lore connected to it, it is not ruining video games in their entirety.

Therefore, I urge you to vote Con on this debate. Thanks to my opponent for a well argued, very engaging debate. Once again, I apologize for my forfeiture. Have a great holiday season, and a happy New Year!
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by piefav 1 year ago
piefav
I'd be willing to debate for or against this, but I don't feel like doing a whole debate.
Posted by Peepette 1 year ago
Peepette
Ops woman trips on a vine or falls in a pit and has to be rescued, you gain points for a successful rescue. Better yet, woman holds her own with a cashe of arms and helps squash the enemy. Personally, I'd rather not waste time on rescuing damsels in distress.
No votes have been placed for this debate.